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Registered trademarks?

Gypsy Dyrssen
Registered User
Join date: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 5
01-20-2010 13:42
Hello,

I had two Xstreet listings pulled: a braid and one for supporting scripts.
I looked for any trademark infrignments on my part (and could not find any) on the website of The United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) http://www.uspto.gov/


Now first I used some names coming from the movie by James Cameron: Avatar.
The names used were Na'vi (Cameron's blue aliens) and Tsaheylu (bonding thing those aliens do).
When I heard some listings were being pulled for copyright infrignment, I removed the Na'vi naming and changed the product picture, just to be safe.
Still my listings were pulled.

I'd like to make sure I can relist but I would also like to know how much changing or faulty spelling is needed. (I heard Blue Linden and Mia Linden ok'ed things in this matter if the spelling changed but that is hearsay so I rather not trust that)

What I do not get is that if it is not a registered trademark (at least to be found as one), why my listings got pulled. What about all the trekkies, the goreans, the star wars fans? Why can they play out their fantasy in SL but not the one movie I liked to make things for hehe.

At least give us a list of names not to use, the 'Avatar movie' inspired roleplay is growing, if we know what we can not use, we won't.

All the best,
Gypsy Dyrssen

Pulled listing info:


http://img683.yfrog.com/i/tsaheylubraid.jpg/

Greetings,

This is the first and only Tsaheylu enabled braid for Roleplayers!!

With this braid you can initiate tsaheylu with someone else or (providing you rez the attachment) anything else. ^^


While walking around you are wearing a flexi braid with a volumetric fur effect at the end....
...but when you use the included gesture (or type /1tsaheylu on) your braid looks for a Tsaheylu attachment!

If a Tsaheylu attachment is found within 2m, you get a menu that asks you if you want to initiate tsaheylu with it.
When you accept, your flexi braid disappears and a particle one appears, this particle braid leads to the attachement.
Not only you but anyone in a range of 2m will get a invitation to initiate tsaheylu, making it easier for you and them.

To end tsaheylu use the supplied gesture or type /1tsaheylu off.
The gestures are mapped to F7 for on and F8 for off.

The attachments are invisible so you can rez them in a tree or something, if you have difficulties finding invisible objects:
Watch the video tutorial made by Torley Linden @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRR387EJAdo

I hope you have fun with the braid!
Gypsy Dyrssen
Registered User
Join date: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 5
01-20-2010 13:49
The email notifying me of the pulled listing contained the following

----
Dear Xstreet SL Merchant,

We're writing you because your Xstreet SL marketplace listings include
the following branded item(s), brand name(s), or other item(s)
containing intellectual property:

AVATAR brand
---
XanXan Jervil
Registered User
Join date: 28 May 2008
Posts: 1
01-20-2010 14:49
Jup, that is exactly the same what I got twice after changing and fixing stuff around, but refuse to re-do my adds by using a normal colored skin.

Here is what they have told me:

Summary: Terminating Featured Items without refunding
Ticket Type: XStreet SL Shopping

Preferred Language: English
Details: Alright, I am angry.. Yes I am certain you hear that often, but right now I do not care.

For the third time my Na'vi items have been terminated from SLX without a precise description of the word I use that is in your eyes forbidden. I do not use the word "RDA" or "AVATAR" anymore, I do use Na'vi as 123545 other items do TOO and they are STILL online.

Not just did my items terminated, they also got terminated without any refunding of my Featured listing Fee, which I have paid for two of said terminated items.


Solution
Solved:
(20/1/2010 2:27 PM PDT)

Hello XanXan Jervil,

Branded items may be listed or sold only by the brand or intellectual property owner or its authorized agents.

If your content is considered a branded under the listing guidelines and you are not the Intellectual Property Owner, then you must be one of the owners Authorized Agents in order to sell the content in Second Life and on the Marketplace.

Using brand names on an item listing is also not permitted.

""Brand names" include product names; service names; company names; organization names; trade names; designer names; trademarks; service marks; celebrity names; famous persons' names; the unique names of well-known books, films, television programs, games, and other works that are the subject of copyright; and the unique names of well-known fictional characters from copyrighted works."

"Misspelling brand names or adding, removing, or swapping some characters to try to circumvent the rules, for example, using the number "1" instead of the letter "I" or a dollar sign "$" instead of the letter "S," is not allowed."

Regards,

Dakota Linden
--
Linden Lab
Xstreet SL Customer Support
https://www.xstreetsl.com
http://www.secondlife.com



History
Date Created Actions Contact Name Comment
20/1/2010 2:54 PM PDT Closed CustomerXanXan Jervil
20/1/2010 2:27 PM PDT Sent Final Resolution CSRDakota Linden (See solution)
20/1/2010 12:57 PM PDT Reopened CustomerXanXan Jervil This is about the most unhelpful answer you could have given me. Everything you posted me here was already posted in the various emails I have been sent by LL which is why I came here to become a proper answer.

I am aware of the Market Listing guidelines as well as the ToS and Me as well as a dozen other merchants are sitting in the dark as of what we are allowed to use and what not.

This is not a "why got it deleted" question, it is a "What do I have to change to make it legal" question. We, spoken in the names of the merchants providing "Avatar" related stuff, do not know what we should do in order to not cross the line of laws when it comes to THIS particular brand.

What are we allowed to use and what not?
We are aware we may not use the word "Avatar" and apparently not the word "Na'vi" but what about all the other words? Navi, RDA, eywa, neytiri, jack sully, pandora etc. etc. All I am asking for is a clarification of the copyrighted words.

20/1/2010 12:25 PM PDT Sent Final Resolution CSRDakota Linden

Hello XanXan Jervil,

Thank you for contacting Customer Support regarding your item listings on the Marketplace.

The Marketplace Listing Guidelines contain information on Branded Content, located here:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Listing_guidelines

"Replicates or closely imitates the appearance of a celebrity, famous person, or fictional character from a copyrighted work (for example, avatars that replicate the appearance of movie stars or characters from a book, film, television program, or game)"

The Marketplace Listing Guidelines also contain information that if content is removed, that refunds will not be given:

"Warning: Be sure to follow these guidelines when listing items. If your listing doesn't, we may remove it at our discretion, and no refunds will be issued for any removed listings."

The Linden Lab Legal Team is actively working to remove content from the Marketplace and in world that violates the Branding Guidelines.

Regards,

Dakota Linden
--
Linden Lab
Xstreet SL Customer Support
https://www.xstreetsl.com
http://www.secondlife.com
Gypsy Dyrssen
Registered User
Join date: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 5
01-20-2010 15:00


uhm I can't read that ;)
says:Insufficient Account Information
Jahzera Bulloch
Registered User
Join date: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 3
Interesting query
01-20-2010 15:30
Your listing being pulled is quite peculiar given your post here prompted me to do a search of my own and I found page after page of products listed on Xstreet dealing with the same film, Avatar, trademark infringement issue.. still there!

I'd feel a little targeted in your shoes. :\ That is unless someone thought your photography was scenes from the real deal! In that case.. a compliment of your skills at least.

Nevertheless, you posed a good question I'd also like to see a response to. How is it all these other role play venues which are based on trademarked entertainment media are so acceptable, without question or restraint.. yet this one is somehow.. more exclusive?

I've just read XanXan's post which seems to confuse the core issue here yet more.
If this is the case then all shapes and skins modeled after celebrities (as seen in entertainment media) would fall under the same infringment. Star Wars, Star Trek, Gor, Harry Potter (sims even named as such).. the list is endless..

Are we looking at a vast areas of SL being soon wiped from the slate?

Interesting stuffs..

Best regards,

Jahzera Bulloch
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
01-20-2010 15:43
From: XanXan Jervil
This is not a "why got it deleted" question, it is a "What do I have to change to make it legal" question. We, spoken in the names of the merchants providing "Avatar" related stuff, do not know what we should do in order to not cross the line of laws when it comes to THIS particular brand.

What are we allowed to use and what not?


Bottom line, you can't sell Avatar related stuff, unless the owner of the rights lets you do it. It's theirs, not yours.

"Navi, RDA, eywa, neytiri, jack sully, pandora etc." ~ forget 'em. Not yours unless allowed, yes, even "pandora" in this context. If you are talking about your pet cat named pandora that's something else... but it's crystal clear what the context is here.

Yeah it looks like you were targeted; you might have been AR'ed specifically, and possibly by the very same competition doing what you were. SL biz can get *real* dirty sometimes.

* * * * *

Now to make it even worse, some copyright holders make it VERY confusing as to what's allowed and what's not. The rights holders for Star Trek stuff, for instance, have been VERY lenient... except when they suddenly weren't.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/02/nyregion/studio-sues-over-a-star-trek-book.html?pagewanted=1

And now they are lenient again. But it can change as quickly as the wind.

You really don't wanna mess with this stuff. Read the following and check out the last lines near the bottom... copyright infringement led to arrest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineage_II

Gentle recommendation: just walk away from this one and chalk it up to experience.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
01-20-2010 15:51
I guess they figure "tsaheylu" is a trademark.
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Gypsy Dyrssen
Registered User
Join date: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 5
01-20-2010 16:26
hmm well, great...

we can almost be sure that it isn't any copyright holder complaining, there is lots and lots of content still online and not only in SL

and 'they figure' well... the copyright holder does not think so! else they would have sent it in and have it registered
Gypsy Dyrssen
Registered User
Join date: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 5
01-20-2010 16:29
From: Desmond Shang

You really don't wanna mess with this stuff. Read the following and check out the last lines near the bottom... copyright infringement led to arrest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineage_II

Gentle recommendation: just walk away from this one and chalk it up to experience.


yeps, I'm going for completly unrecognisable names now ;)
Milla Janick
Empress Of The Universe
Join date: 2 Jan 2008
Posts: 3,075
01-20-2010 17:03
A trademark does not have to be registered to be valid.

There is certainly a blurb in the film's credits to the effect of "AVATAR and all charachters and elements are trademarks of the 20th Century Fox Corporation".

Changing the names of the items might keep the listing up longer by making them harder to find. The takedown requests will still be valid.
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Void Singer
Int vSelf = Sing(void);
Join date: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,973
01-20-2010 17:55
I look at it this way... if cameron and crew want to sink their own fan base by attacking derivative works, so be it. but you don't build a following by keeping a strangle hold on anything related to your creation... you just make it less available to fans, and it tanks.
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Dagmar Heideman
Bokko Dancer
Join date: 2 Feb 2007
Posts: 989
01-20-2010 21:36
This is kind of odd. There is lots of brand infringement that has existed in SL forever because, presumably, the brand owners either didn't care or saw it as free advertising (Star Wars, Dune, Firefly, Star Trek just to name a few). Perhaps the brand owners or licensees are doing this because of the CGI nature of the Avatar brand? :confused:
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
01-20-2010 23:08
From: Dagmar Heideman
This is kind of odd. There is lots of brand infringement that has existed in SL forever because, presumably, the brand owners either didn't care or saw it as free advertising (Star Wars, Dune, Firefly, Star Trek just to name a few). Perhaps the brand owners or licensees are doing this because of the CGI nature of the Avatar brand? :confused:


I think the problem is that XStreet takes a commission on sales.

So if infringers A, B, and C make money, and thereby, you make money off it too... you are also "in on it" and very much a defendant when it comes to fines, damages &c.

Unless it's REALLY clear that the franchise is cool with fans doing certain things, the default assumption anyone who doesn't want to pay really heavy damage assessments should be: "can't touch this."

Remember, most studio's have lawyers on retainer, getting paid anyway, who are constantly looking for ways to show how regularly useful, necessary, and revenue~generating they are.

I doubt if studios would go after a rabble of broke fans who will spend thousands on cheap plastic Avatar stuff anyway, over the next few years. But would they go after Linden Research? I think they would be *all over* that, even if the chance of winning was slim.
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Johan Laurasia
Fully Rezzed
Join date: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,394
01-20-2010 23:17
I was selling a Pacman arcade machine on XStreet, it got pulled for copyright infringement. So why is this there?

https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=item&ItemID=252551
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Jahzera Bulloch
Registered User
Join date: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 3
01-20-2010 23:25
Well there you have it Gypsy.

My guess is this..

The sales market for fan-fare related items ( out of world) hasn't been worked to death.. yet. So any related content creation is hot ticket off limits.

However, in the instance of lets say skins, blue skin isn't new or even innovative. Think Smurfs. Think the Kool-Aid guy! The seeds weren't new and innovative either. Underwater sea life replication.. the only thing 'unique' was they were presented as above water level lifeforms. And so on..

I broke down and saw it when it held little interest to me initially just to see what the fuss was. Nothing in the film 'Avatar' is unique or original except.. the terminology. The concept is one of the oldest in the film industry. Man invades another planet to pillage and plunder its resources and the local inhabitants fight back. Man hybreds to invade within the local population.. The hero's conscience forces him to side with the victims and fight back. My thoughts as I watched were.. smurfs and Spock gone blue knocks offs wearing face light decorations.. sealife flying around.. and Star Trek series thinking/design.. modernized. The Tsaheylu .. bonding included.. wasn't unique or original. Thats straight from an episode of Twilight Zone. I was actually disappointed at how little original creativity went into 'Avatar's ' creation. Smurfs in outer space.. Spock gone blue was already there.. 8-\ .. Even the Eywa seeds concept was borrowed from The Outer Limits series ... I wasn't impressed.

The issue is the terminology. When thats the only thing they have that's close to unique (however lots of the terminology was only changes to distant Star Trek/Outer Limits terms) their not going to allow it to be tapped easily. Not until the pockets of their fan base have been fully drained. Content, concept and design can't be the issues because they were all knock offs to begin with.

My prediction is the Avatar craze will be short lived and its only distant memory will be found in places like SL.

Best Regards,

Jahzera Bulloch
Snickers Snook
Odd Princess - Trout 7.3
Join date: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 746
01-20-2010 23:46
Fictional characters, invented names, etc. are most certainly trademarked and/or copyrighted within the context of movies. In fact, it's normal business practice to lock all that stuff up so the producers can license the hell out of them. And you probably were targeted via AR by a competitor. I've had two takedowns on XStreet over trademarks which actually weren't trademarks (they had both lapsed into public domain long ago) but there's no arguing with the team that polices that stuff. It's easier for them to simply make a final decision, boilerplate you and move on. So they do.
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Jahzera Bulloch
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Join date: 24 Apr 2008
Posts: 3
01-21-2010 05:08
From: Snickers Snook
Fictional characters, invented names, etc. are most certainly trademarked and/or copyrighted within the context of movies. In fact, it's normal business practice to lock all that stuff up so the producers can license the hell out of them. And you probably were targeted via AR by a competitor. I've had two takedowns on XStreet over trademarks which actually weren't trademarks (they had both lapsed into public domain long ago) but there's no arguing with the team that polices that stuff. It's easier for them to simply make a final decision, boilerplate you and move on. So they do.


Absolutely agreed.

Exact duplications of the characters and terminology would be out of bounds. However creativity abounds in taking a concept and building a new one. Much the same as is the case with this film.

I also agree it looks like Gypsy was the victim of the dog eat dog retail world of SL. An AR filed to get tough to compete with high quality products removed.

I wonder, do Linden's follow these threads? Hello.. hello hello hello.. any feedback from the Linden side to this? ;-)

Best Regards,

Jahzera Bulloch
Twisted Pharaoh
if ("hello") {"hey hey";}
Join date: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 315
01-21-2010 05:36
I had all my products removed from SL Exchange (now XStreet) for copyright infrigement back in the time because I mentioned Sexgen in one product description. It was a scanner, so nothing to see with a Sexgen product, the line was something like "it will help you find your Sexgen bed back". Needless to say I stopped to list my products on SL Exchange that day.

Now it's property of Linden Labs, I guess they don't make such mistakes anymore. I understand if you name your product after another one but if you mention a product it's more advertising than copyright infrigement.
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
01-21-2010 05:37
From: Jahzera Bulloch

I wonder, do Linden's follow these threads?
Ha, that's a good one. You're such a kidder!
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Lindal Kidd
Dances With Noobs
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 8,371
01-21-2010 07:02
From: Void Singer
I look at it this way... if cameron and crew want to sink their own fan base by attacking derivative works, so be it. but you don't build a following by keeping a strangle hold on anything related to your creation... you just make it less available to fans, and it tanks.


As far as we know, TwenCen has NOT pursued any of the "fan art" created by SL residents. It's LL, being proactive and enforcing their general policy.

Some companies DO keep a tight hold on all their IP. Disney is perhaps the prime example. Try finding an "Ariel" mermaid avatar in SL, for instance. (I made one, but I had to make her out of parts from several sources).

Others are extremely lenient. You can use Coca-Cola's logo and artwork in SL freely, for instance.

LL's policy is that unless you have the IP owner's specific permission to use their property in SL, it's NOT ALLOWED. Sorry, Avatar/Star Wars/Star Trek/Disney/Name That Film fans. Sorry, creators of Famous People avatars. Sorry, creators of Chanel handbags and dresses.

If you want to make content that copies or is derivative of something, the right thing to do is to contact the IP holder, and explain what you want to do (and maybe give them an estimate of how much money you expect to make...when they find out that your product will generate maybe twenty bucks' profit, they may laugh and say "go ahead".) If they give you permission, then you are good to go. If LL takes down your stuff, wave your letter from the teacher under their noses.

The fact that "other people are doing it and getting away with it" is not a justification for YOU to do so. Sorry, that's just how it is.
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Lindal Kidd
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
01-21-2010 08:09
It may not so much be profit concerns, as risk concerns.

The way the laws are written, if you *do not defend* your intellectual property, it falls to public domain. The proper way to let other people use your stuff is via licencing, even if you don't charge for it.

They would be idiots to let that kind of cash investment in movie making, marketing, and branding fall to public domain, especially right now.

On top of that, would you really want someone out there "doing it wrong?" Seriously. You bust your tail and break the bank to come out with insanely high end CGI, then there's amateur stuff for sale? That's going to go over about as well as people putting Bentley logo's on rebuilt Volkswagens. Nobody wants their brand turned into a laughingstock that is seen most often on cheap crap.

Later on they are likely to chill out a bit to keep it rolling, but I daresay people are going to be into Avatar stuff no matter how strict they are with regard to copyrights and trademarks, for a loooong time.
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01-21-2010 08:37
From: Lindal Kidd
As far as we know, TwenCen has NOT pursued any of the "fan art" created by SL residents. It's LL, being proactive and enforcing their general policy.

Some companies DO keep a tight hold on all their IP. Disney is perhaps the prime example. Try finding an "Ariel" mermaid avatar in SL, for instance. (I made one, but I had to make her out of parts from several sources).

Others are extremely lenient. You can use Coca-Cola's logo and artwork in SL freely, for instance.

LL's policy is that unless you have the IP owner's specific permission to use their property in SL, it's NOT ALLOWED. Sorry, Avatar/Star Wars/Star Trek/Disney/Name That Film fans. Sorry, creators of Famous People avatars. Sorry, creators of Chanel handbags and dresses.

If you want to make content that copies or is derivative of something, the right thing to do is to contact the IP holder, and explain what you want to do (and maybe give them an estimate of how much money you expect to make...when they find out that your product will generate maybe twenty bucks' profit, they may laugh and say "go ahead".) If they give you permission, then you are good to go. If LL takes down your stuff, wave your letter from the teacher under their noses.

The fact that "other people are doing it and getting away with it" is not a justification for YOU to do so. Sorry, that's just how it is.

which would make it contigent to either apply for a license or give it away....

if someone cares enough to do so, they should do as Lindal suggests, and then you put a licensed marker in your listing and be done with it.
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
01-21-2010 09:29
From: Lindal Kidd

LL's policy is that unless you have the IP owner's specific permission to use their property in SL, it's NOT ALLOWED. Sorry, Avatar/Star Wars/Star Trek/Disney/Name That Film fans. Sorry, creators of Famous People avatars. Sorry, creators of Chanel handbags and dresses.


Not really, though. Try ARing the owner of any block of RP sims, even if they're littered with trademarks and are themselves a breach of interactive entertainment rights (ie, the right to create an online RPG based on the IP, which is seperately licensed in most cases). But you'll probably find LL won't do anything, because, hey, tier.
Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
01-21-2010 10:48
From: Yumi Murakami
Not really, though. Try ARing the owner of any block of RP sims, even if they're littered with trademarks and are themselves a breach of interactive entertainment rights (ie, the right to create an online RPG based on the IP, which is seperately licensed in most cases). But you'll probably find LL won't do anything, because, hey, tier.


Incorrect.

Middle of last year, LL went on a "IP Protection" spree that targeted fantasy sims with even the remotest hint of Tolkien (and other famous fantasy author's) IP. Many folks got those letters, and even sim names had to be changed.

=======================================================

Bottom line is, if you want to do fan adaptations of popular media, GET WRITTEN PERMISSION FIRST. Don't just "assume" that you can do it and make money out of your "love" for their IP as a "fan". That isn't a defense against IP infringement.

I've seen so much of this in SL, and so many people eventually ganked for it, I would expect people to have learned their lesson by now. However, every time a new pop media hit comes around, there's always the early push to "cash in" on the pop feeding frenzy, violating IP.

Just.. don't, unless you get it in writing first.
Lindal Kidd
Dances With Noobs
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 8,371
01-21-2010 11:01
In addition to what Talarus said: I said it wasn't allowed. I did not say it was uniformly enforced.
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