The Economic Impact To SL re Casino and other issues

So wait you don't have any hard data to back your claims up?
So all your doing is waving your little ban gambling flag without any information to back it up.

Let me start this again..
Someone said that gambling money does not go back into the economy...
I showed in two specific cases from a casino owner, to a gambler how this was not the case and it did indeed go back in, you decided to retort by informing me your points how people only loose... (no overall there is a house edge and with enough time and traffic any statistical wins can be balanced, in some cases that edge is a mere 1-4% (Blackjack, Roulette, Baccarat) in other cases (keno) its 35% of course this is speaking of optimal play. Funny I've never lost money in Vegas, then again I don't gamble with money I'm not prepared to loose its an entertainment expense... Don't get me wrong, I've written cash and cage software I know what a casino in the real world makes.

I then restated how that money does go back into the economy and you then agreed but spouted off on how it would not matter... where are your figures to claim this?

Again I dont see your point other than speculation.

Whoa ..

Please stop smudging SL and FL as far as examples go.

Theres plenty of data to track how the finaces of casinos in REAL LIFE work. Every city that contemplates bringing in Casinos commissions studies on the impact.

No ones done a study on Second Life Casino finances. Ive yet to see a true scientific study of the SL economy period. So you harping on that statement is just that, harping.

******As far as the rest *****

Ill spell this out in super plain english -

==>>>>>THE ODDS FAVOR THE HOUSE<<<<<==

there are more gamblers that lose than win.

Guess where the money you win comes from -



YEP from the pocket of some poor LOSING gambler.

Thats right for every $100 You are up, someone(s) down far more than $100.

Just becuase you win does not somehow mean you have more of an economic impact than the people who LOST.

I think its funny that you assume i have no clue what house edge is...

If you did you wouldnt speak like Anyone can win consistantly gambling.

And seem to discount the fact most people LOSE.

You may understand it on a personal level. As in what it takes to make money.

But you dont appear understand in on a Statistical Level - As in what House edge means as far as how many will win vs how many will lose in the big picture of a casino's operation.

The Losers fund the winners.

The Losers fund the taxes.

The Loser fund the big fancy building.

The Losers fund the shows.

The Losers fnd the promotions

The Losers fund the Employees.

And the Losers fund the Casino owners lifestyles.

It wasn't for nothing that Herman Hesse called the players of The Glass Bead Game 'Lusers'. But I digress....

All that is true, Colette, but not really relevant. If the loser is satisfied with the trade-off between cost and whatever kick people get from gambling, it's really nobody else's problem but the loser's. The same complaint could be made of any other intangible entertainment that costs money: You go to a movie, pay $8-$10, plus transportation and parking, waste a couple of hours you will never have again, and come away with nothing but the experience of the movie. Just like the gambler.

If the loser is a gambling addict, the equation changes somewhat: then we are not talking about entertainment any more, but a mental condition that needs a therapist. But it is still basically the gambler's problem. Rearranging society so it is safe for addictive personalities is not workable - people can become addicted to almost anything with a stimulating effect: sex, coffee, shopping, SL...the list is endless.

This is a case of a victimless crime that should not be prosecuted: the only victim is the person who freely chooses it. Legislating and attempting to enforce laws against such things is extremely counterproductive.

I don't gamble and think it is dumb, and there is a lot else wrong with SL's casino industry, so I am not defending the SL casinos. But I think it is important to defend people's right to choose for themselves, and to not have choices forced upon them. Deciding what is good or not good for other people is one thing; forcing your choices on them "for their own good" is something else altogether, and often the source of much evil.

Keep in mind this thread is about the economic damage cuased by gambling "leaving" Second Life.
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My point is that Gambling is not an Economic boon its a wash. Its economic redistrubition.

Unless gamblers come from somewhere other than the community that the casino is located, it literally provides no real econimic gain.

Therefore the loss of casinos really isnt going to hurt Second Life economically UNLESS a statitically significant number of gamblers were coming to Secondlife primarily to gamble. This would seem to fly in the face of the gambling advocates who claim that SL gambling isnt really gambling for money.

Colette...

Your speculating without data...
Your making false assumptions. Im not exactly sure what crusade your running but honestly your arguments of its a wash don't make sense as I can prove to you that its not a wash.

Without discussing Addiction which is a completely different subject there are indeed people who make money gambling for a living which means there must be some way for both the house and the player to come out ahead, what it comes down to is everything else in live the shear number of people who think they have a clue but really don't.

The other problem is you have no earthly idea of what you are talking about, there is no house edge in poker, there is infact a house rake but there is no edge... Your not playing against the house, the house does not pay you if you win, the other players do...
You rent time and the table and the seat from the house.

So lets ban all rentals!!!!!!!!!!!

I contributed 1m to the SL economy this month... could the SL economy live without that 1m sure... But do you really think I'm alone.... I'm sure the guy I bought land from appreciated my cash, im sure the products ive bought in world or out of world appreciate my cash.... All you have done is say that casino's are evil cause people loose...
Ummm guess what...people pay to loose... Its entertainment... The thrill of the chase, the chance of being lucky...

For me its better than an afternoon at wallmart....buying cheep plastic crap....

Your entilted to your opinion of my statements.

But its a wash Unless a statistically significant number people are involved in SL gambling with the idea of spending real money.

In which case - SL gambling is about real money.

In which case the arguement its not real gambling are false.


The reason the big concern about gambling potentially being investigated is its unregulated gambling for real money. While its supporters say its not.

People cant have things both ways.

Its either real gambling with a significant number of people losing real money. Therefore really gambling.

Or its not.


Or are you saying that Casinos can be proffitable, as in GENERATE money for a community without outside monies? Wheres the money come from?

The losers, who far out number the winners. In the "neither here nor there" department, your opponent in this debate is still running a classified ad for casinos. He also can't seem to avoid applying real world gaming concepts to things in Second Life which have no correlation.

And with the kind of money he talks about flaunting around, I'd be a little grumpy if I were at risk of losing an income like that too. Poor wittle casino operator. Boo friggin hoo.

Once again your off topic...
The topic is will it cause in impact.. A topic by an alarmist poster who trolls for attention, last week he was on ginko's site accusing the owner of Ginko as being Anshee Chung...

Obviously its not a wash...

In your real world example...

Someone has to pay the contractors for the building, thus adding value to the community.
In the case of vegas, some tourist comes in from Ft.Lauderdale with money looses it, yay ok would he have spent it in the Ft.Lauderdale community who knows... Now that money is spent in Vegas where it goes to contractors, Jewerly dealers, High end Car Dealerships, Staff and the Boss's Coke dealer... All money that benefits Vegas..... (i'm obviously exaggerating things) but im sure when the semonole Indian tribe in Hollywood Florida bought out the hard rock cafe' chain due to there casino's im sure some community got value out of that.

If it did not add value why are US school's funded by the lottery.... OBVIOUSLY VALUE...

So please explain to me how its a wash... We have no idea what that other person was going to spend it on for all we know it was hookers and cheep booze... or walmart to fund chinease labor camps...

Actually the funny part is I make more cash in my texture line.
Boo friggin hoo...

This debate is not about the add's this debate is not about who's an operator, its about will the impact effect the community...

Even in the real world Casinos dont earn a community money without tourism.

Until recently I lived very near Detroit. This was a Significant political issue for this very reason. 3 casinos were eventually approved.

The "possitive economic impact" was significantly smaller than the Casino owning companies predicted. Enough so that they all shelved the much larger hotel complex plans. This was all evident even before the Auto industry took its nosedive.

You cannot successfully execute an argument about the economic impact of the VIRTUAL world of Second Life having casinos and gaming banned or severely inhibited by policy, using examples of REAL world gaming industry concepts. They aren't even remotely similar. Stick to the facts about the scam^H^H^H^HBusiness you're running **in-world**.

Who would gamble in detroit though? Hell who would go to detroit?
Then again until mr. segal built up vegas who would go to that sand trap..

What is with your seeming obsession with WalMart?

Please... Oh wait...you know nothing about my figures...you know nothing about my business.. OMGROFLBBQSAUSECOPTER!!!!one one 1111
please give it a rest...

I'm countering her real world example. I already said where my money goes...

No Idea... I have slammed them three times now...
I blame it on the fact that im quitting smoking and im edgy...

All of these monies are related to eventual tourism (including tourists gambling) bringing money into the local economy. If that tourism doesnt occur this money comes from the local community assuming the Casino stays in business.



The lottery is simply an alternative to a tax. Statistically theres so many more losers than winners this funds the school.

Not only does it function like a tax, it functions as a Tax that is disproportionate on people of middle and lower incomes.

There you go - You are proving my point.

Until outside money comes - Casinos dont help a local economy.

Im flagging this statement to ask that question "Not only does it function like a tax, it functions as a Tax that is disproportionate on people of middle and lower incomes."


Before I go any further do you consider yourself a socialist ?

Nobody is forcing anyone to play lotto...
I think the odds are so spoked in lotto that its the same odds to have god himself come down and hand you the numbers... Loosing proposition, but a nice place to toss 10$ every so often to maybe if all my luck smiled on me at once..be rich...

Fair enough. I'm disappointed actually. I was intersted to hear how WalMart would figure in this socio-econimic, discussion. (BTW, I despise WalMart as well).

No.

Im not even anti gambling

Im against unrealistic expectations and poorly conceived ideas.

Specific to Second Life im against people who say SL gambling isnt about real life money, when obviously it is.


Im unimpressed by one person claiming they can beat the odds in gambling while its obvious how the system works at a high level. You instead prefer to muddy concepts with details that are not relevant.

Whether you personally can win at Keno for example has no relevance in the Basic structure of how a casino makes money.

I play the lotto

But im not under some unrealistic expectation that its not there in place of a tax and the odds make it function exactly like a tax that effect middle and lower income people more than higher income people.

Bugsy Siegal realized that to bring in outside money, in both investors and patrons, there had to be something besides the gambling. That's why Flamingo was the first sucessful resort in Vegas. Big name entertainment brought in customers, which encouraged Bugsy's "Associates " back East to finance the operation. Unfortunately for Bugsy, he was a bit too successful.