The Economic Impact To SL re Casino and other issues

You almost say that like it's a bad thing. First life economic gain is the bane of many online games and sims. In some cases it is the direct cause of an inflated or otherwise messed up game economy. People cheat, exploit, whatever they can do to make that extra dollar. In the case of SL, people can ruin whole sims with casinos or other such places that are likely to draw more than their "fair share" of people to the sim, causing problems for the people who simply want to live there.

Dang, I really wanted to make this reply on the Blog but it looks like it is full.

I believe there is probably a casino on almost every Native American (Indian) reservation in the USA. How do I know, they advertise. Soon the are going to have them off reservation too. They are working on that one right now.

I don't gamble and I don't care if you do or not. Oh wow wait, here comes Super Bowl Sunday, lets put some money in the pot. Maybe we will win a little money. Oh no, they just outlawed football. What the heck I don't care about that, I am a woman.

Next they will rip that smoking gesture from your sl gestures because someone under the age of 18 might see it in there and use it. Oh what the heck they can buy cigarettes on the internet anyway, might as well let them smoke in sl.

I am not judging. Everyone is allowed to have their own opion, but do you see where this just might possibly be leading. Do any of you still have some of those old laws on the books about "lewd cohabitation". Oh no, they just outlawed rl sex too. Here it goes, Second Life just disappeared and Real Life will be gone soon.

People must learn to take care of themselves. The law can't do everything for you. Now if they ever pass a law that says we have to take our vitamins will we do that too. Are they going to tell me if I have to take it with breakfast or dinner? I don't know, I hope it's dinner because I don't eat breakfast. If they say breakfast, I will be breaking the law because I don't eat it. Oh heck, I hope they tell me what to do. I am just an adult and I can't make my own mind up anymore about what is good for me, because I let some one else do it for too long.

I believe that the SL economy is far more driven by new users arriving and buying L$ as an initial stake - after some amount of time, maybe hours, maybe days, maybe months. Some of them just want to create a nice looking avatar or a house of their own. Others have a technical interest in SL and buy it so they can experiment with prim building for the sheer joy or educational value of it. Others have more ambitious dreams and buy larger land areas and huge amounts of content in attempts to set up clubs or areas or themed role-playing, usually in order to establish themselves in an in-character "authority" position - and most of these attempts (eventually) fail, because you can't manipulate social networks that way. Which is often sad for the creator - but, bizarrely, good for the economy, because it means the (apparant) gap remains for the next person to try and fill, and they also put money into the economy in the attempt...

I suspect the real impact of casinos on the economy is quite low, because they're classically used by newbies to try and make winnings from small amounts of money obtained by camping. It's no accident that casinos were often popular locations for camping chair farms, after all. I find it hard to believe there's a large market for people using SL to gamble RL money in large quantities by laundering it into L$ for the duration of the gambling game, and if there was, I think the FBI would have gotten far more interested far faster.

Yup. Gambling is normally a negative factor in an economy. More people lose at gambling than win, so it ends up redistributing the wealth into the hands of a small number of people. All those Lindens lost in gambling - could have been money a large number of people were spending throughout the economy on goods and services. Instead, it's being funneled into the pockets of a smaller number of people, and they're after profit - they're not going to be spending all that money buying stuff.

So no, I don't believe this will hurt the economy. If gambling disappeared altogether, it would be more likely to stimulate spending across the economy, ie the money that would have once been lost at a casino, is now able to be spent in other ways.

Some people involved with gambling may pull their investment out of SL, some will move on to other opportunites in SL. Either way, it doesn't really matter that much, SL's econonomy is much broader based than that, and that money pales in comparison with the money coming in to develop sims for a gazillion other reasons than gambling, money that is spent across the economy, as creators are hired, goods are purchased to facilitate that development - and the money coming in from people using SL as entertainment and the end users of those sims.

I'd agree with that. As to gambling, gambling in SL is not at all like RL gambling due to the total lack of regulation. After all, what is "gambling"? You gamble when crossing the street that you won't get hit by a car. If I come up to you and say "Give me $L100, and I may possibly give you 500 back. Or I may just keep your money," then you are taking a gamble if you give me the money. Going into a casino in SL is a similar sort of gamble. You don't know what's in that slot-machine script. You have no idea of the odds any more than you know how likely it is that I'll give you L$500 back.

There will be no economic impact at all.

1. LL has never been able to police the events so far, doubt it'll start now. Casinos posting non events already happens and it's against the rules. Yet how many events today are for casinos? So far today there is 63 non events posted that is obviously casinos (by the name of the event). Not to mention the many other non events listed. They have even stated time and time again that they don't have the people to deal with it.

2. If they can't clean up the events, you really think they will police classifieds and places? I highly doubt it.

3. Even if they did they will think up different keywords.

4. Many casinos have malls attached. Now a search for "hair" can land you at one of these, but at least you can scan the classified for the keywords. If LL actually did do something, it would just mean that I won't be able to aviod them in my shopping.

This really is just a PR scam to look like they are doing something about it, when they cant and they wont. Plus with the added bonus of diverting attention from the billing, lindex, database and severe lag issues.

In actual fact I agree with that, in fact if Second Life evolves into a game or social networking platform, which would be a good thing imho.

What is now clearly wrong is the implied advertising that indicates Second Life is a platform where (with a little bit of luck) it is possible to make millions of real US dollars.

Desmond Chang of Caledon is absolutely correct, the early environment within Second Life that enabled the likes of Anshe Chung to make millions was an event that under current conditions is unlikely to be repeated. In fact if you TP to Central Park and take a look East at the class 5 servers offering double prims you will find (yesterday) that most of the land is unsold.

The only event that may change my own opinion; that is Second Life becomes an overnight way to make instant real money in worthwhile amounts is

a) A clear statement that gaming/casinos are legal within Second Life for all to both play and own

b) And if (a) happens it would be a clear statement the US (or any other first life Governments writ) does not extend to Second Life. That WOULD usher in the mind-blowing concept of eminent domain. That is Second Life is a separate country or place. Then all bets are on and its gold rush time. And not only for Second Life either…………………………………………..

I think the economy of second life is very important. The fact that you can create something and actually sell it for profit has to be a large draw. Casinos aside, there are a bajillion shops hawking their wares.

(and yes, bajillion is a number )

The sex industry is one of the largest grossing industries in the US. It usually grosses more than movies, music, and television(RL). In short, it's not going anywhere, in-world or RL. Remember the adult industry brought a lot of money and sucess to the internet in the early days and it still does. Technology for porn will advance here. Especially when you can start to utilize the voice options available.
Gambling is'nt going anywhere either. It also represents a large portion of the SL GNP. These are two important elements that consistently generate revenue for second life, and they can not be eliminated. To do so would severely limit already limited revenue generating industries.

I honestly don't think it does.

The large portions for SL money spend will be in stores, land rentals/purchases and related work and of course the sex/club industry.

Gambling will be below all these.

Although you named gambling last, that is a very short list. Like i said, if you take gambling or sex you will be extracting one of the very few revenue streams. And are you sure of the revenue that gambling generates in SL?

Well there isn't a huge amount of revenue options in SL

However given MANY run successful shops in SL and run RL business off them the revenue shops create must be a comparitively large percentage of revenue earned in SL.

We all know there are several successfull land dealers and one is a SL millionaire so that clearly generates a large amount of cash.

Related work is work with RL companies or similar and as such often is charged at RL rates and thus generates a large amount of cash.

Sex is HUGE in SL as we all know and therefore logically can generate a good amount of income but I don't think many people ( non merchants ) generate RL wages off SL sex so as such this is most likely below.

Below these two are clubs and gambling. Clubs often barely break even so they are low in revenue production.

So whilst Gambling is below these, given the short list it's not likely to be a bit contributer ( I call Gambling Casino style stuff, *ingo is obviously popular but not truly gambling but even then *ingo doesn't generally create any income. )

I don't have any figures but my guess is that the combination of content creation, shops and land dealing probably accounts for 80-90% of all cash in SL, Sex probably 10% and miscellanious including gambling the rest.

I may be wrong, but I'd be VERY surprised if my estimates are not close to the mark.

This is a poorly researched assesment. A few simple google searches will show that Movies, music and television EACH have a higher revenue than the porn industry in the United States.

Thats not to say the porn industry isnt big business - just that your assertion its the number one entertainment business is inaccurate.

I think , though, its not Porn's revenue that really keeps it safe. Its the First ammendment.

So your correct in saying porn isnt going anywhere on the net.

Second Life of course it would depend on what the Lindens do. I kind of doubt sex is going to disapear either.

I think more money is spent on avatar apearance than on sex in SL though. And that homemakers outnumber the sex club patrons. In fact most sex club workers end up "reforming" and becoming homemakers after only a couple of months. The average person simply isnt cut out for a wild life of sex and new partners all the time. Instead the typical woman goes through a new SLmarriage every few months , with accompanying dream house, big wedding , etc.

LOL even the goreans are living out their version of domestic bliss.

Just like RL America, most of the people having sex in SL are having it in their homes with their Significant Other (of the week), not in the tacky strip/sex clubs.

If sex clubs were to diappear tomorrow, the beat would still go on, and it might be a boon to those who deal in poses and other implements that poeple can put in their homes, negating the need for sex clubs all together.

Prostitution and gambling. Capitalism is built on the backs of the exploited masses.

The Second Life voice chat is coming just in time. The economic gap caused by the loss of gambling will be filled with an economic boost in the form of phone sex.

And avatar appearance isn't directly related to sex?

Just like in real life. If you want love an intimacy, you'd better shell out the money on the right beauty products.

And nothing I write could possibly be construed as cynical.

when included in a discussion with the sex industry as a major component Id use Indirectly related.

Seperating the sex industry from the Appearance industry. Of course appearnace and sex are related. However they are not one and the same.

Basically Im trying to say "domestic bliss"or attempts at such) sex is much more common than "sex club" sex for anyone whose been here more than three months.

I dont think i called you cynical. I wasnt even quoting you.

John aren't you getting tired of your alarmist posts.

The reason for those stock changes are not what you think either. Especially GIF....

I don't see gamblers or casino owners doing much economic activity outside of themselves.

Are people buying/renting land, houses, furnishing them, clothing their avatars, so they can sit and play high stakes poker at some casino? Or are they in the suit they bought on day two, cashing out on Lindex without owning anything?

The punters buy their L$ on Lindex, the Casino owners sell it to them for their USD, then take it back off them again when it's in L$ shaped chips, and it goes round and round.

How does this affect anyone not involved?

I mean I can see the escorts spending some of their income on new shoes and skin and stuff, I don't see that being typical of gamblers. Not successful ones.

I have prob spent a TON from poker winnings.
Back into the economy, I've bough like a ton of prefabs, and never use them. Just got mystitool, have AVPack.... Just I buy all kinds of crap...
Got a custom shape, got an expensive skin, have a clothing collection the size of Cleavland.
Good stuff to, Blaze, Mushi, Made Men....
Not to mention launching my company, renting my initial land, (3 places)

While your experience is fine.

More people lose at gambling than win. This is why it works as a business.

Therefore any Net economic boom will only favor the casino owner - people like you are mearly exceptional data points and are statistically marginalized.

Poker is not gambling against a house, as a matter of fact there is a legalization movement based on such..

As far as casino based games, I can do alright if the game is not rigged and with a little research you can figure out whats rigged or not.
Your right over time you can not beat the house edge...
But look at roulette or baccarat where the house edge is very low, you can certainly streak to wins..some even large...

You miss my point in that while an individual might be a successful gamblers the only way a Casino prospers if for any sucessful gamblers winnings to be covered by unsucessful gamblers losing.

More will always lose than win. That Lost money will always exceed any winnings - In fact it is equal to the winnings and take of the casino owner.

Therefore those loses are a net drain on the economy.


This sort of thing is brought up a lot when casinos are debated in municipalities. The only reason Casinos make net economic boost to any locale is at the expense of OUTSIDE moneys from other areas that normally wouldnt have been spend in that community.

Thus Vegas Casinos make a lot of money for Vegas. But its syphoning that money from the home towns (or savings, or investments, etc) of the gamblers who go there and lose.

Im not sure I see your point...
The argument was the money does not flow back out to the economy..
And I said it did...
What about new games, or tier, or land, or expansion, or staff...

Obviously any business takes money away from other things..
Why give to the fundraiser when you can buy some crap at wallmart..

In Second Life.

Its is true since casinos are big business it might have some effect on the land market since they wont buy land. Land prices might do down a touch - or raise slower.

Linden Labs will lose some teir. They will aso loose some monies from their take of the lindenX / Process credit system from gamblers and casino owners.

campers will have less money becuase casinos making less money have less to spend on campers.


These numbers would all be hard to come by. Im goign to guess we will hardley notice the loss. Ill go further to say if gambling were actually banned instead of "hidden" would still barely feel the loss.

Unless your in the gambling business or an employee of course. Or a successful gambler. Then your going to feel the loss quite a bit depending on how banned it gets banned.