Over 30?

Though some items may be theoretically optional, their very existence as options to be listed may create the social conditions where they are required to be listed. For instance, suppose one's "verified" gender is something you can "optionally" list. I predict certain groups will require that option to be displayed in order to participate in the group, such as escort services, club dancers, slaves in Gorean sims, lesbian hotspots, etc...

Because I will not be participating in this identity pogram (not a misprint), nevermind that I won't be able to visit any of those places I just listed, I am quite certain my gender and age will be questioned merely because I do not display them. Already when I mention in-world that I am not going to verify, people jump immediately to the conclusion I must be underage, even a friend I have known here six months! And that's NOW. When this actually goes in, the pressure to conform will be intense, and I am sure people will start AR-ing anyone who hasn't conformed.

And depending on the way the age display is set up, maybe there really are going to be brackets and therefore social pressure to make sure that hot 25yr old guy you just met isn't really 62 with grandkids your age. Or perhaps jazz clubs may choose to disallow the sub-50 crowd, and if you don't display this "optional" information, you don't get in. Or

What if one option is to display marital status? I can see that display being required in certain dating circles, hehe.

I'm all for honesty and clarity, but it seems sad to me that people won't really be able to construct a new second life here, especially after voice is in place. They will just get to repeat their first life in a prettier skin. And that's really a shame, because story-telling can be such a healthy thing.

What confuses me is how it will be possible for LL to list this "optional" information if that information truly isn't being stored anywhere.........

Exquisite post Sweet, and I believe it sums up a lot of peoples concerns. Even the fact that FUZZY details can be considered as verified inworld, or "given more weight", is just begging for the dividing lines to be thrown up. Merely being able to list these in a Linden provided proof type of way is nothing short of encouraging the exclusionists and the "us, not u" types to open their own little hunting season on those who dont age verify, and also those who do but choose NOT to divulge any extra info.
Being able to list verified extra info really IS nothing more than giving people more reasons or conditions by which to exclude others. We have enough dividing lines in SL already. I'm sorry, but we all know how people like to segregate things, and I for one am not in favor of turning SL into a ritzy golf club thank you.

bud.tv uses aristotle age verification. 21 US states have written a letter to bud.tv because they are not doing enough to verify age. bud.tv is still there and has not been shutdown by legal action, even though they require less information than LL will.
http://www.commercialexploitation.org/news/budtv.htm

One of the main objections the states raised was that bud.tv are in no way attempting to verify that the person submitting the data is the person named in the data.
Essentially, this service is useless for verification no matter how many pieces of ID they require. A lot of people resent being asked to supply that much personal information to a 3rd rate company (who are rumoured to have breached electoral laws when selling personal information) simply to fulfill a pointless fantasy of Philip Lindens.

And BTW, it is not only children who are upset by this. The number of children posting in this forum is probably somewhere not much higher than 0. Any adult who values their personal information should be upset by this.

A whole bunch of "what ifs" Everyone has an opinion. Everyone has a theory. And everyone is free to express both.......however for opinions and theories to have sway with people who have a different view they must be backed up with facts. I've seen many opinions and theories.........very little, if any at all, facts.

I have an opinion.......and that is that a verification system by an independant verification company that specializes in such business is necessary for Linden Labs. It gives one small additional layer of protection for them........which also extends to each one of us. It's always possible that someone will find a way around it.......but they will have to work at it. It's also possible that the system can be hacked into.........but the US Dept of Defense has been hacked too. There are only a few guarentees in life...........taxes, death, and sometimes things won't go as planned. As it stands right now, I'm leaning toward verifying with the new system.........but I'm looking for "facts" to make my final decision. And I've been hoping for some here.........so for I've only seen hysteria and paranoia.

Whoa- I hate the implication of this Sys - How would they verify the person submitting the data is the one named in the data?

Phone call wouldnt work,
Snail Mail maybe?

Only way I can think of is in person.

Case in point about my post of a minute ago. I value my personal information but I'm not upset about this. You're telling me I should be..........convince me with facts. "Aristotle is rumored................" I read that report about the incident.........in 2003. No wrong doing has been found.

Convince me...........don't belittle me because I'm not in agreement with you.

Yep, they could only do that face to face with a photo ID that can be proven genuine.
The snag? That's only good as long as you can see the person you just verified. It cannot be assumed that the person using the account is the same person you just verified. Works great in bars, lousy on the net.

Every attempt at verifying anything about a person on the net will hit the same pitfalls, unless we all submit to constant video surveilance and tracking devices

Sorry, I perhaps phrased that wrongly (pushing 3am here).
It was mainly to point out that it isn't just children who object to this. I doubt even the majority of objectors are children.

Feel however you like about it, I don't actually expect people to pay attention to my posts most of the time

All this becuase people dont want to raise their own children.

Why cant the 18+ control be on the Computer end

Microsoft has some flag "im a 18+ computer user"

That parents can turn off - for kids under 18.

I guess that would be too difficult, easier to pass a ton of legislation.

Or DNA.

Oops, I may not be that data base yet.........LOL

But, if you are looking for perfection in any system..........hmmmmmm, don't think you can have it. Even face to face contact. Photoshop is an amasing program.

"Or DNA."

LOL...I needed that.

To access this service please present your thumb to be pricked so your dna information can be submitted to our servers ....


I dont even think the goverment has a way to make sure the person logging on remotely to their computers is the person they certified to use them.

Ford had a special card where the password changed every couple of minutes. But if you knew the user name and had that card - you coudl log on , whether you were you - or not.

Yep, that's why I say the ID would have to be proven as genuine. Probably about as close as you can get to perfection if you throw enough experts into checking it.

In truth, there is no perfect way of verifying age. You can put more and more effort into the system, but it will always be imperfect. LL will never be doing enough in some opinions. No matter how much effort they put into it, they can always do more (like bringing in another expert to check the ID). At some point you have to settle on imperfect.

If Visa and registered paypal accounts are near enough (despite protests that Visa cannot be used for age verification), why alienate a lot of people for not much difference?
At least with those, there is a lot of effort put in on fraud prevention. Most likely, the account holder is either the one paying, or the person paying (parent) has been defrauded or is complicit in the fraudulent signup. Any of those cases are hardly grounds for a massive lawsuit against LL.

"Why did you allow my child access to SL?"
"Why did you allow your child to steal your credit card and lie on their signup?"

Visa allows minors their own credit cards............that voids the whole concept for using a CC for age verification. There would be NO fraud, no broken law. It might be a method of tracking and finding whoever abused the CC but if they are 16 and have a legally issued CC then it's just no verification at all. I'm not sure, but I think minors can get Mastercards too.

But, I'm going to lay a scenario that very well could happen to most anyone. Peggy Paperdoll is 27 years old. Meets Mike Hugemember who states he's 29 years old. Peggy gets all hot and bothered over Mike (remember the last name........LOL) and decides to have a little private fun with Mike in her little house she built for moments like this. Well Mikey's mom wanders in his room and finds me and Mike in my sexgen bed..........whoaaaa!!! Mike suddenly logs off and I'm left high and dry........LOL

Two weeks later I get a supenea from the Justice Department ordering me to appear before a grand jury concerning pediphilia. Seems Mike Hugemember was really a thirteen year old and his mom is livid and wants "justice".

Who's at fault? Me? Hey he told me he was 29................how was I supposed to know? Think that will stand up in a court? Think I might have to divvy up a considerable amount of real US $ to defend myself? What is going to be my defense?

Without a verification system I have no defense. At least with the new system I have a leg to stand on..........without it I'm on my own. Perfect or not..........it's a reasonable effort. That is all the law requires.

Just one reason for age verification. And it's not too much to imagine other instances where age verication is necessary. And identity verification too..............if someone steals 1,000,000 lindens!! That's a bunch of US $.

Its another nail in the coffin of what used to be the dream of SL. Now instead of having a second life limited only by your imagination they want you to transfer your first life to the grid. If you don't use voice comms you will be labelled as some sort of gender imposter. If you don't have your FL age range verified you will be suspected as being an age imposter. If you don't list your FL location it will be assumed you have some reason to hide it. Every little option that LL add to transfer more of your FL kills off another bit of your chance to have a SL.

I also never thought the day would come when LL got into bed with a company like Aristotle. It just goes to show that the bottom line will always win out over dreams and principles.

Many companies use similar things to let employees VPN into their intranet. My company uses SecureId which changes the PIN number once a minute.

You actually need the user name, password and the gadget that displays the PIN to get in but yes, if you had those, you'd have open access..

It's actually easier for a minor to get a passport than a credit card, even babies need their own passports these days to travel. Holding a passport is no proof of age. So why demand passport details from non-US residents? If a credit card is not sufficient proof of age how could a passport be?

Also, its impossible in many if not most countries to even access a list of passports to test the genuineness of the number given. At least with a credit card LL can check to see if the CC exists and if its in the name and address I give them. You can't do that with a passport number unless you are some sort of government agency like customs and immigration.

If I am a minor and I just make up a passport number, provided it has the right number of digits and country code, how does that prove I am an adult? There is no way to check it and even if it is a valid number I could still easily be under 18.

Think also of the consequences - if my CC details are stolen I can at least cancel the card and eliminate or minimise the fraudulent use. But if my passport details are stolen I could have my entire identity stolen.

What it boils down to is LL are asking non-US residents to provide a form of identification that is less reliable than a CC for age verification, cannot be verified to even exist in most cases and if given makes the person much more vulnerable to identity theft.

I give up..........some are just putting out obstacles. Much of what some are saying could be true............and much is just so much BS. I'm willing to bet that everyone of us here are very unqualified to offer most of the information we are providing. I have no idea how other countries treat passports, drivers licenses, credit cards or anything else..........so anything you say could or could not be true. I really don't care because I simply don't believe 95% of the crap people say.........it's not verifiable. So to be safe, I'll stick to some "official" word.

I believe a method of age verification is vital for everyone. And no one. Not one person has put up a viable alternative to what LL is proposing. All I've heard is negative bullshit........yeah, bullshit. Not one intelligent alternative. And I've read almost every post in every thread on the subject........that's a lot of reading.

So, have fun with your hysteria and paronoia..........panic all you want. Have heart attacks. Sweat blood. Feel abused, and mistreated. I'm done with trying to find information from a bunch if children who scream the sky's falling every time they don't like something............something they don't know shit about.

Not sure why you must throw up the "I'm-too-exasperated-to-argue-with-you" card. It reeks of patronization. Clearly we focus on different aspects of the problem and therefore come to different results. It doesn't mean we are being unreasonable, nor that you are.

I will point to your hypothetical example, however, of you roleplaying sex with someone who turns out in fact to be underage. Your supreme defense to the irate mother is this:

"What the hell kind of parent doesn't keep tabs on the activities of her 13 yr old child online? When did you abdicate your responsibility as a parent? Why must the freedoms of anonymous adults across the world be truncated by your lazy disregard for your children?"

That you and other defenders of this so-called "age" verification continue to ignore that is telling. This isn't so much about age verification anyway. That's just the official line. This is really about getting hold of everyone's identity if they wish to play SL. I would guess LL is shoring up the bottom line somehow.

And I STILL want to know how these "options" can possibly be listed IF IN FACT that information is NOT being stored anywhere... that sounds like a pretty remarkable feat.

So, you see, our side does in fact have what a reasonable person might call "arguments" and "reasons." The difference in our conclusions depends on the answer to this fundamental question:

Is the hassle and identity risk of this ineffective approach worth it for an overrated video game?

For you, the answer is clearly yes. Bully for you. Have fun. Hope your faith proves well-placed!

For many many of us, the answer is not so clear, and not because we are unreasonable or stupid or "shrill" or overreacting, but precisely because we feel the responsibility is entirely misplaced and because this approach to deal with it has so many potential (and perhaps safe to say.... "probable" downsides.

Thats a pretty good question.

I certainly agree with you that parents should theoretically keep tabs on their children--especially on the internet. I also think it’s absolutely ridiculous that the entire world has to be sanitized because parents don't the time to monitor their kids and try to make society at large their kid’s parents.

While what you stated above is definitely a legitimate moral defense, it is not necessarily a legal one. Sadly, I live in a country where laws are designed more and more to hold the hand of everyone and divest them of their responsibilities. On the regular old internet, parents have already successfully sued businesses and individuals who exposed their children to what they consider inappropriate material and have brought criminal charges against them.

I don’t really care if a third party age verification system is or is not actually effective. However, it at least becomes a legal leg to stand on when some right wing judge tries to throw you in jail because an irresponsible child lied about their age.

It's already been answered in the language of the corporate mindset.
They WILL NOT be storing any information, nor will aristotle store any information.
They will however be vaulting information for 2 years to comply with US regulations, and extracting information to use in their new profile service.

Of course you can trust them when they say they wont be storing data, that little star next to the sentence always means it's true*


* This sentence contains truth from an alternate reality. Terms and conditions apply. Your second life may be at risk if you do not keep up payments on a mortgage or other loan secured on it.

sounds like they are storing data then.

.. unless by vaulting they mean jump over it .. which for two years seems an extremely energetic and somewhat needless recreation