Mainland Sim purchase group for creative builders
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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03-21-2007 07:24
From: Janann Statosky You are right, but for me the only option has always been a private island. ps. I have been a Basic member too few years now, but that doesn't matter on a private island  Quite so. I own 4096 M2 on one of the FairChang sims, and couldn't be happier with it. The sim is zoned residential, is peaceful and quiet, and I will NEVER have a casino or Slingo Parlor or rotating ad signs appearing next to my home there. I've been hurt by the bad side of private island land ownership as well. I once had a similar sized land parcel on a lovely island, and lost it because the sim owner sold the sim. I was lucky and was able to sell the parcel back to the owner before the sim transferred. But I still lost what had been an ideal home. I've also rented land on a private sim, and had had a whole new sim dropped on what had been sim-edge waterfront, destroying my view. Life in SL is change. Nothing lasts forever.
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Katie Singh
SL Kid
Join date: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 81
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03-21-2007 07:31
I had the same experience. I heard about someone who was doing exactly what you were doing, except it was for political issues. It was nice for a month. We had a very pretty little area. I guess half a sim or so? And some reasonably quiet people just outside.
Then the sales started. The casinos opened. I ended up selling out to a land baron just to get out of the deal.
If you want control, don't sell the land. Rent it so you can maintain covenants.
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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03-21-2007 07:32
Well, unlike all the estate-evangelists in this thread I still think people are fundamentally honest and trustworthy. But perhaps an idea to consider would be some kind of deposit. If your buyers pay twice what the land is worth with the understanding that they get half of it back when they leave.
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Ged Larsen
thwarted by quaternions
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 294
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03-21-2007 07:41
From: Janann Statosky Ged, I almost contacted you a week or two ago when I visited your LandScanner web page  This might really work if we find few more enthusiasts, or at least residents, as of course "normal" people can live there too. What would be extremely interesting is to grow the community and later join several sims together and create a seamless small continent. But ah well, a bit early to plan that. Maybe if the first sim becomes first profitable I/we could expand it and even buy those special low prim islands (four with the price of one). So...anyone who is interested in living on a PI with a main focus on the landscape, probably double prim plots (to save the land for landscaping of the common areas) and low rent, just send me a PM or contact in game. If we get enough people I might order a PI and contact then you and we can try together design the landscape. I have already some sketches but don't want to reveal all details here. Suggestion to you Janann, that I was going to do myself: - create a blog (free, at maybe blogspot.com or wordpress)
- write up a brief description of the general idea
- depending on how collaborative you want the endeavor and planning process to be, either let anybody merely post a "comment" to your post, or if they are seriously interested, even allow them to create / edit (?) the blog posts
- start to organize what you think will be the covenant: theme?, purely residential? low-impact commercial? minimum and maximum plot size? financials (are you planning to create this as a "for-profit" for you enterprise, or more closely "at-cost" with a buffer for potential vacancy? conflict resolution? rental vs. purchase? terraforming +/- 4 m vs +/- 100m? Allowing comments here might get a discussion going, and as things get more set, people who are "just browsing" might "commit to join"
- people who are "committed" should be listed on a single page, with a brief description of how much land they would like, and a "rough" idea of what they might like to do. that way, if there are 16 people total, 8 of whom would like a particular type of environment, and 8 a different environment, the Sim could naturally be divided up to keep similar interest people in closer proximity.
As you can see, I've also thought about the private sim group a bit, LOL. I also thought an eventual "multiple sims" possibility existed. One possibility might even be that the Sims are owned by different people, which makes more sense with an "un-themed" set of Sims, rather than Desmond Shang's wonderful Caledon model. Multiple Sims might even have different "specifics" -- i.e., purely residential vs. mixed with commercial). Although this would be rather far in the future, if the project can even get off the ground, the multiple connected Sim issue should be considered early, because I could imagine people would be unhappy if their ocean view became a connection to a new Sim. Perhaps group land on a good part of one edge, as a possible future connection point? And finally, I think we have hijacked somebody else's thread. The OP wished to create a Mainland community, via an actual purchase mechanism, which has much potential as well. Perhaps you / we should return the thread to the OP? If you move your plans to another thread / blog, please let me know.
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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03-21-2007 07:45
From: Ged Larsen For various reasons, I think Private Island may be a better way to go, and for that, there will always be one person who holds all control. Most people assume that "all control" is in the hands of the sim owner, but it's really not how it works. I pay 2440 USD/mo in tier for the Caledon sims, presently. 29280 USD a year. Enough to put several top of the line luxury cars in my garage, driveway, and down the street a bit were I to spend it on vehicle leases instead, for instance. Of course I can't afford to do that. I drive a 1993 vehicle with door dings and something really screwy with the interior lighting. The only way I can afford 2440 a month on the grid is by residents paying for land and covering the expense. If I do things well, I can even be decently profitable. So... what would happen if I were to inappropriately exercise "all control" that everyone speaks of? Even one sim is a lot of money. 1675 down and 295/mo will put you in a really nice new car. That's the equivalent value that a jerk sim owner will lose, if they try to pull anything. So there is substantial motive to not rip anyone off. A new private sim is about 5000 USD for the first year. Would it be worth it to rip off someone for 3000 USD? Heh, you'll lose all your residents and end up with a net loss of 2000 USD. Just *try* selling a sim once you have a bad rep - who would trust you to transfer after you had shown your stripes? Nobody. So... this is why you don't see too many jerks with private islands. Moral bankruptcy leads to real bankruptcy. Edit: ... and thanks for the Caledon compliments; the magic there is that I'm just the 'land guy' and it's the residents that made 95% of the content. 19th c. steampunk Victorian is a theme that most people 'get' pretty easily and can do wonderful things with.
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 Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!
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Ged Larsen
thwarted by quaternions
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 294
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03-21-2007 07:54
From: Desmond Shang Most people assume that "all control" is in the hands of the sim owner, but it's really not how it works.
...
So... this is why you don't see too many jerks with private islands. Moral bankruptcy leads to real bankruptcy. In full agreement with you (as I usually am, from all your posts I've read!). In fact, if I could commit more fully to the lovely Victorian-era, and had a whole lot more role-play skill and ability to sound so genteel, I'd be another person on the waiting list for Caledon. I think I overused the word "control". Mostly, by control, I meant the final and ultimate ability to remove a giant neon rotating particle-spewing phallic symbol floating over a 16 sqm plot In my musings and dreams about forming an island community, I mention that I wouldn't want to do this to be a rental manager / covenant enforcer / despot, benevolent or not. I think I really, really, would NOT enjoy that aspect. I just wanted a quiet place to live, a pleasant set of surroundings, with nice neighbors, all at a cost that took advantage of the scale of Sim-wide tier / island fee, rather than the higher fees required at the low-end. Or the high buy-in and/or rental fees of, say Dreamland. Which is exactly why I'm hoping to con Janann into doing all that nasty work instead, so I can just be a powerless and happy resident
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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03-21-2007 08:58
From: Ged Larsen In my musings and dreams about forming an island community, I mention that I wouldn't want to do this to be a rental manager / covenant enforcer / despot, benevolent or not. I think I really, really, would NOT enjoy that aspect. Indeed, very insightful. It's rare that I have to enforce anything, but when I do it is most definitely *not* fun. There are worse things than covenant enforcement though. One bad incident several months ago involved a stalking case that went to real life, in a country thousands of miles away from me. I was asked to 'do something' but really, at the end of the day the fact is that we are all just residents on the grid, no more or less, and I've got no special powers or insights really. Were I to ban, the perpetrator would simply come back as an alt and I'd simply no longer know what avatar the person was. And of course I can't control real events in a foreign country. The right move was to let the Company handle it and contact authorities as best they could, if in fact they needed to. One never knows how much truth is in what you are told on the grid. As for generally 'icky' things, well, nobody's ever been stupid enough to even *try* putting a casino in Caledon. So I don't have to deal with that sort of thing. One advantage of a quirky, eccentric theme is that you tend to, well... how to put this. I don't get "hai are u guyz rdy to PARTAY!" residents, or the "he shot me 4 no reson my Sheld was fair Ban cause he a looser" residents...
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Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!
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Kamael Xevious
Dreams are like water
Join date: 24 May 2004
Posts: 248
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03-21-2007 09:04
From: Desmond Shang One advantage of a quirky, eccentric theme is that you tend to, well... how to put this. I don't get "hai are u guyz rdy to PARTAY!" residents, or the "he shot me 4 no reson my Sheld was fair Ban cause he a looser" residents... You know, Desmond, now I'm suddenly tempted to rent a parcel in Caledon and go all steampunk, simply so a day or two down the line I can liven things up for you. Kam
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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03-21-2007 09:11
From: Kamael Xevious You know, Desmond, now I'm suddenly tempted to rent a parcel in Caledon and go all steampunk, simply so a day or two down the line I can liven things up for you.
Kam I got best sheld we pwn I am club VIP too we got army of noobs u bad u bring it we sho u who is best no cheting or I tell evry1 in aliance
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Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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03-21-2007 09:13
From: Janann Statosky Or no commercial activity at all.
A double prim system could work very well too, where half of the sim area is used for the scenery, like hills, ponds, paths, etc. while not being away from the prim number of each plot. Ponds take up a surprising large number of prims if you nice have flexi Heart plants around them and put in splashable water, rocks, a few pose balls and have scripted frogs and fish in residence (said from personal experience on his home sim of Carlisle). Also from personal experience, the other newer owners in Carlisle who said they like how nice it was and wanted to keep it that way have kept their word and some of us have spoken about selling to each other before simply setting the land on the open market should one of us leave.
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Kamael Xevious
Dreams are like water
Join date: 24 May 2004
Posts: 248
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03-21-2007 09:20
From: Desmond Shang I got best sheld we pwn I am club VIP too we got army of noobs u bad u bring it we sho u who is best
no cheting or I tell evry1 in aliance ROFLMAO Thanks. That was the best laugh I've had in a very long and tiresome day. Kam
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bilbo99 Emu
Garrett's No.1 fan
Join date: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,468
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03-21-2007 09:21
From: Desmond Shang I got best sheld we pwn I am club VIP too we got army of noobs u bad u bring it we sho u who is best
no cheting or I tell evry1 in aliance Jeez Desmond! ... you better have your radio back!  |
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Kamael Xevious
Dreams are like water
Join date: 24 May 2004
Posts: 248
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03-21-2007 09:23
From: Raymond Figtree Also from personal experience, the other newer owners in Carlisle who said they like how nice it was and wanted to keep it that way have kept their word and some of us have spoken about selling to each other before simply setting the land on the open market should one of us leave. I think this is one of the best pieces of advice I've seen on the forums in a long time. I recently had to unload 20K m2 of land... and I approached my neighbors first. Not only did they buy most of it (and I gave them a good price for the land), I managed to sell all but 1536 of it within 48 hours. The best part of it is that they've secured their views, and I've made some friends in the process. It serves as a reminder, if you want to belong to a community, you've got to be a citizen. And when that happens, everyone is better off for it. Good point, here, Raymond. Kam
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IX Exotica--It's where you want to be!
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bilbo99 Emu
Garrett's No.1 fan
Join date: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,468
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03-21-2007 09:29
From: Kamael Xevious
It serves as a reminder, if you want to belong to a community, you've got to be a citizen. And when that happens, everyone is better off for it.
Good point, here, Raymond.
Kam
Yes, neighbourhoods are good .. and they can work well. I have at least two neighbours post here |
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Ace Albion
Registered User
Join date: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 866
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03-22-2007 03:12
From: Desmond Shang
As for generally 'icky' things, well, nobody's ever been stupid enough to even *try* putting a casino in Caledon. So I don't have to deal with that sort of thing.
Caledon needs an opium den! Where else are poets and brilliant criminal investigators going to drown themselves in laudnum? Then the workhouse...
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Ged Larsen
thwarted by quaternions
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 294
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03-26-2007 10:07
Guess I'll give this dream a shot -- let the experiment begin.
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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03-26-2007 10:19
Good luck, Ged!
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Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
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Anya Flanagan
Registered User
Join date: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 0
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03-26-2007 10:38
Bah, after poo-pooing the mainland idea so many times you went ahead and bought a mainland sim anyway? Well, good luck you big old foolish dreamer! |
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Ged Larsen
thwarted by quaternions
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 294
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03-30-2007 06:11
This thread inspired a lot of the planning and ideas that went into the eventual birth of the Linji Haven Mainland Sim Community. Since I appropriated a number of the ideas here, for use in the "covenant" (actually, rental agreement), I thought it would be appropriate to post here. It's too early to tell whether it will all work out, but it's encouraging that one person has already come by and asked whether I'd mind if they tried organizing something similar in another Sim. Imagine, if you will, a proliferation of Mainland Sims, each dedicated to keeping the Mainland more pleasant? What a dream! If more Sims are organized like this, we should keep a list of them, and make the list available in our respective Sims, to encourage similar projects in the future. Anyway, here's the agreement I cobbled together. I imagine it'd be easy enough to modify for use in a Residential-only Sim, as envisioned by the original poster. I hope that it might be useful to others -- please borrow from it freely, without restrictions. From: someone --== LINJI HAVEN ==-- The following is a PRELIMINARY DRAFT of the charter of Linji Haven. Whether you are interested in joining this nascent community or not, suggestions and comments are very, very welcome. And if you are interested in joining our group, please post a comment! The goal of Linji Haven (in the Linji mainland sim) is to provide: * an unthemed mixed-residential and low-impact commercial oasis on the Mainland * a community of like-minded individuals who believe that the Mainland can still be a beautiful, wonderful, minimal lag place to enjoy Second Life * the lowest price possible To insure that the Sim can maintain it's zoning guidelines, it is a rental only community. Web site for more information: http://slged.blogspot.com/2007/03/linji-haven.htmlEstate Managers to contact for more information: * Ged Larsen * (soon, Sierra Mills, but don't bother her yet) ZONING GUIDELINES Residential and low-impact commericial Guidelines: * be considerate * low-impact commercial welcomed * small events welcomed * no Casinos, no Clubs, no Camping, and no Crap (ad farms, lag hogs, incredibly ugly builds) Lag control * try to use efficiently-written scripts, without loads of listeners and scans * try to use the minimum-sized texture that gives you good results Spelling it all out Really, if you're just being considerate of others, you don't need to read these details. If you are trying to use this list to find loopholes of what you can get away with, this community is probably not for you. And, if you and ALL your neighbors are OK with it, bending the guidelines is fine too. Just see "Conflict Resolution". * events should not be so large and frequent as to cause problems for other residents * restrict build heights to twice the distance from the parcel border * try not to obstruct your neighbor's views * no major eyesores * no excessive particle effects * no flashing / rotating / neon signs * no banlines (banning specific avatars is fine) * no walls or fences that close off your land * skyboxes shouldn't be visible from ground level builds * no non-consensual combat COMMUNITY Goal: it would be wonderful if instead of a bunch of separate carved out parcels, we had a community. Of course, this can never be something "forced", but I'd welcome ideas to help promote this. Some ideas: * volunteers to build for Linji Haven public areas * meandering footpaths and small roads to encourage exploring the sim, rather than teleporting. Small stores might be perfect on either side of these paths, which would likely follow parcel borders. o I would be happy to deed prims used for these paths to group, and they would NOT count against your prim allotment * a central 1024 sq m Linji Haven public square / small park * a 2048 sq m waterfront parcel has been reserved for use as another public space * community award: a democratic vote, every couple of weeks (hopefully weekly, once finances are more stable) amongst Linji Haven members, of an individual who has contributed to the community, whether with a build, a concert, an event, or in any other way o this individual would be credited a week of rent for 2,048 sqm (roughly L$900) CONFLICT RESOLUTION * I want to remain as absolutely hands-off as possible, hoping that the simple rule of being considerate towards others will minimize conflict. And, I hope that people will be as open-minded and accepting as possible of other people's tastes. But, conflicts happen. * if 3 members of the community have a grievance against another member, and an official Linji Estate Manager agrees, then the grievance must be addressed. RENTING * encouraged plot sizes: 2,048 and 4,096 * prim allotment: 234 prims per 1024 sqm * rent to be paid weekly, in advance Amount of rent will be the Linden Lab Mainland Tier Schedule, recalculated in L$ per week at the current L$ sell exchange rate, correcting for the 3.5% LL exchange fee. Example: if the current L$ "sell" rate is L$267 per US$1 + 3.5% LL exchange fee: * 1,024 sq m: US$8/month = L$2,211/month = L$507/week * 2,048 sq m: US$15/month = L$4,145/month = L$951/week * 4,096 sq m: US$25/month = L$6,909/month = L$1,586/week (Although Paypal, US $8 / $15 / $25 per month could conceivably be an option, the mandatory revelation of real-life names, and potentially addresses, makes me a bit hesitant.) Smaller 1,024 plots may be considered (the goal is to avoid a busy, cramped feel of small, packed plots.) Larger plots may be considered (the goal is to avoid having a mega-plex taking over the character of the Sim, and rent will be calculated by the sum of smaller plots). LIQUIDATING I am not trying to make money from this venture, so I would like to keep it going so long as I am not LOSING money in monthly tier (currently US$195), and hopefully, slowly offsetting the initial purchase price of the sim (US$2,756). However, should it become necessary for the sim to be sold off, I will do my utmost to keep the following promises: * I will give at least several weeks of warning * I will offer each parcel for sale to the current parcel resident first * if the current tenant does not want it, it will be offered to sale to other Linji Haven residents * if sold to a Linji Haven resident, the land sale price will set at the "Avg L$ Paid Per Square Meter" price for the previous month, available at http://secondlife.com/whatis/economy_stats.php * if no Linji Haven tenants want it, it will be sold on the open market
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Sys Slade
Registered User
Join date: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 626
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03-30-2007 06:54
From: Ged Larsen Really, if you're just being considerate of others, you don't need to read these details. If you are trying to use this list to find loopholes of what you can get away with, this community is probably not for you.
Probably the best part. I run a small forum in a similar fashion, and it's lead to a really tight knit group of friends. If you lay down every single rule in a big list, you just know someone will come along and start challenging or pushing to the limits. If I hadn't gotten so lucky with my neighbours (friends who followed me to a nice area) I would be looking for something exactly like this. |
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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03-30-2007 07:18
Looks pretty good, Ged!
One tiny comment - even though you weren't soliciting them I'll save you some pain.
Charge a small, non-refundable land fee up front. Not because you are greedy, but simply so you don't get suckered. Honest individuals will have no issue with this.
Here's why:
a) Scammer Mcfly comes up, and says: I'd like to rent half the sim! 32768m.
b) You cautiously agree, and he sets up twentyfive identical, bland cottages.
c) The next week you see twentyfive 'friends' of Scammer running around.
d) Hey, what are you all doing here?
e) Oh! Scammer 'sold' us the rental rights here for only $L 10 per meter!
f) You realise Scammer made $L 327680, or 1188.76 USD off your venture in less than a week, took off and stuck YOU with the customer service cleanup. That's when you discover that 80% of the users are only one week in-world and start to ask you what a prim is...
It may not go down quite this way; usually one of your residents will try to be a 'mini land baron' once you fill up; buying and selling lucrative rental rights in your nice area.
All hope of community will vanish once your sim becomes their personal Monopoly game, with lots lying fallow because they are rented by land speculators, not community participants. So charge something really reasonable to get in, and that slams the brakes on all this really fast.
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Mattie Hansen
Registered User
Join date: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 52
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03-30-2007 07:47
Projects like that are so nice and interesting, but might bring to a mess too.
All depends on friendship and trust.
We started a sort of project like that, on a private island though.
I wouldn't start such a thing on mainland putting together like 10 people when only 1 of them could cause the end of the dream.
On private island it's the island owner the only one who might mess up things.
So if a group of people interested in joining a project like that can find a trustful one to be the island owner it have way more possibilities to work. At lower costs too.
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Sys Slade
Registered User
Join date: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 626
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03-30-2007 08:25
Only the initial buy price for the private island would be lower, monthly tier is $100 US more than mainland. I'm looking into doing this as well, just charging a tier fee without "selling" the land, but couldn't afford the island myself. The investor would at least like to break even after a year and a half, so we'd still be looking at the standard linden $8 tier for a 1024 plot. Anyway, don't wish to detract from Geds project, so if you're interested in something like this, rent his plots |
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Ged Larsen
thwarted by quaternions
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 294
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03-30-2007 08:27
Desmond -- Advice is always welcome, especially when from a voice of experience. And wow, what a totally different perspective to approach the problem from! And what a devious idea, that would never have crossed my mind! I am still naive, and also, came at this project from a completely different perspective: - how many months am I capable of holding out, in a mostly empty Sim, paying tier, before I will can't continue?
- What can I do to maximize the chance that there will be enough interest that this albatross can get off the ground?
- And finally, how can I make it so that IF I do need to bail out completely, whether for project failure, or because the unexpected hassles of attempting to "landlord" becomes too unpleasant?
I did have a very nice person, once, suggest that they'd be interested in claiming a quarter sim, for mixed residential/commercial purposes. And, I declined, because I was hoping that there would be no one single entity, that would "take over" the Sim. Similarly, I've kept parcel sizes rather small -- just large enough to hopefully decrease "crowding."
That bit of monopoly-playing would only be relevant if the Sim was something highly desired -- like Caledon . And, someone wanting to pull off that bit of monopoly playing would need to somehow trick me into letting them acquire multiple plots, perhaps via alts.
Now, one reason why I considered, and rejected (at least for now), the up-front "buy-in" fee, was that if ALL failed and I needed to liquidate, I didn't want to have the moral burden of having taken something that I could not uphold the promise to. A "buy-in" promises that the land will always be there, and I couldn't in good conscience do that. If I liquidated the Sim, I would keep the used rent, refund the unused portion, and leave, thinking they received what they paid for, I owe them nothing more.
Of course, another idea would be a "deposit" buy-in, which would be refunded when they left. But, I thought that might discourage people from joining at all, and I still feared the completely empty Sim...
You do bring up something that I am rather concerned about now, though -- the tenant who tries to "re-sell" rental rights. I do have one option, perhaps less available to an Island sim situation. Currently, all tenants join the group at a "Resident" role, which has many abilities. They can invite other people to the group at the base "Member" role, which can really only receive notices, and set objects to group so they won't be auto-returned. So, a tenant can claim to provide sub-letting / re-renting rights, but those abilities will be minimal, unless *I* promote them from "Member" to "Resident."
I think this should dramatically decrease the ability of any Resident to attempt a rental re-selling arrangement.
That doesn't mean that Scammer McFly might not try to, anyway, though.. A newbie might not have any clue what they're missing, as a basic "Member" until it was too late. A sort of a "I've got a bridge to sell you, tactic." I think my only solution, then, would be to disallow letting anyone else invite to group, which I think would just shift a major hassle onto me, which I'd rather avoid....
Back to your conclusion:
From: someone All hope of community will vanish once your sim becomes their personal Monopoly game, with lots lying fallow because they are rented by land speculators, not community participants. So charge something really reasonable to get in, and that slams the brakes on all this really fast.
So long as I do NOT charge an upfront fee, I do not feel morally disinclined to simply say "The covenant was play nice. You did not pay nice. Here is a complete refund of your remaining rent, consider yourself evicted." Whereas, if there were an non-refundable fee, I'd feel like I promised something. Yet, I'm still worried about the "scam" possibilities, of tenants claiming to be able to provide to others something that they can't.
Thoughts?
==========
From: someone Projects like that are so nice and interesting, but might bring to a mess too. All depends on friendship and trust. We started a sort of project like that, on a private island though. I wouldn't start such a thing on mainland putting together like 10 people when only 1 of them could cause the end of the dream. On private island it's the island owner the only one who might mess up things. So if a group of people interested in joining a project like that can find a trustful one to be the island owner it have way more possibilities to work. At lower costs too.
I don't know if I can agree with the "lower costs" assessment, in the long-term.
Originally, in this very thread, I argued that the Private Island was the way to go. But then, given the $295/month fee for islands, and the "rent = mainland tier" model I was trying to offer, I realized that I would need a 75% occupancy, merely to break even with the monthly fee. I didn't think that was something I could count on, and abandoned hope for using private islands. With a mainland sim, at these rents, I need 50% occupancy to break even on $195/month of tier. Beyond that, I can slowly (and I mean SLOWLY) offset the initial much higher auction cost of the mainland -- I estimate that with 100% occupancy, it will take two years to recoup that cost.
I don't know if SL will exist in 2 years. I don't know if SL popularity will plummet, and land prices drop to L$4/sqm. I don't know if they won't raise mainland tier to $295/month. In case of failure, a private island would be harder to liquidate than mainland parcels. Mainland, although with a larger upfront cost, and painful limitations (terraforming, requirements of groups / renters), seemed to be the right trade-off to allow an exit strategy, if necessary.
I agree with you -- that many ventures like this depend on trust and friendship. I am too new to SL, to have a group of friends that I could collaborate with this idea on. One major reason why I dwelled so much on the "failure strategies" was that of all the friends I approached before hand with the Island idea, only one said she'd commit.
So, everything I've done is with an eye to "what if this all comes apart..."
I totally agree, though: with a group of friends I could count on, I would much have preferred the Island route, for all your reasons, as I posted earlier in this thread.
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Ged Larsen
thwarted by quaternions
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 294
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03-30-2007 08:32
Heck, Sys, I hijacked somebody else's thread. AND, this forum is DEFINITELY not a classified ad, for me to advertise in.
I think this thread would best be served by people contributing the pros and cons of different forms of community creation.
I forgot to specifically point out that another reason an Island would be a better idea, is that I really, really think that LL is going to up the mainland tier. Maybe not for the "lower" levels of tier -- outcry from users would be too high -- but very likely for the "high" end of sim-level tier. The current $195 tier for sim levels of mainland really only benefit large land holders, the "land barons."
If LL does not want to support "land barons," they'll just up that end of the tier spectrum.
If and when that happens, my little project will take a major blow. Probably rather much like when Island tiers went up from $195 to $295. (And again, I'd be thinking towards "exit strategies" if this happened. Can you tell that I'm an "expect the worst, hope for the best" kind of thinker? A pessimistic dreamer, as you were.)
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