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As a content creator, why do you not do custom work?

Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
08-03-2009 18:58
Back in 04 i used to make pierces. But i stopped. Too much work. So did custom only stuff. Then i stopped. Still too much work (and i didn't want the grid going crazy with nose chains!)

When i say "too much work", what i mean is the work is too much for the compensation or what i must charge for it to be worth my time.

I decided i would charge $2500L/hour which was pretty low, and still walked away feeling like i put way too much effort into what i created and got too little in return - so i stopped.

It seems to me, that if people were less apt to balk at real world hourly prices for work done in SL more content creators would be more likely to do custom-exclusive work.

As a content creator - is this how it is for you, too much work, too little compensation? If not, then why do you not do custom work?

If you do custom work, give us an idea of what you charge if you can.
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Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
08-03-2009 19:03
From: Briana Dawson
If you do custom work, give us an idea of what you charge if you can.

/me has very rarely (ever?) charged for her work.

I'm just too lazy and charging would make me feel obligated to offer customer service. I almost always just give stuff away or sometimes say that they can pay me whatever they think it's worth. Then again, if I'm not interested in making something, I don't.
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Dante Tucker
Purple
Join date: 8 Aug 2006
Posts: 806
08-03-2009 19:04
All my custom work is free. It's only standard products that I sell.
Sylvia Trilling
Flying Tribe
Join date: 2 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,117
08-03-2009 19:32
Ditto. I did some custom work early on and no regrets about that. I learned a ton and did some fun projects.

But I got to a point where I had developed some skill and needed to get compensated for my time. My SL business is my RL job. If I charge anything like 10USD per hour, people think I'm being greedy or expect something that is technically unfeasible given the limits of SL. I have had sculpts that I originally made custom for clients that the clients did not like and did not buy the rights. I went on to sell the items in my store and made way more money than I would have at the custom design fees originally discussed. That was quite satisfying.

My theory is that SL is saturated with people who are happy to make things for fun as a hobby and don't need to charge for their time. That sets the market price. Thats just the way it is.

I regret that I have to turn down custom projects from loyal customers. I just can't expect or ask for anyone to pay me anything approaching what I can earn, over many months, from a sculpt design that sells well in my store.

BTW, when I get approached for custom sculpts, I refer folks to Photon Pink.
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Paulo Dielli
Symfurny Furniture
Join date: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 780
08-03-2009 19:41
The prob with custom work is that the sponsor decides what he wants. Not me. But my name is on the product, even when the sponsor is happy but I am not because it's ugly. Usually I get many ideas from customers. But I never consider it custom work anymore. I go with an idea and make my own interpretation.
Snickers Snook
Odd Princess - Trout 7.3
Join date: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 746
08-03-2009 19:42
I'll do custom mods of my outfits when asked but there's definitely no return on the time investment when I do. Usually it's more about the challenge.

I once did a custom fitted version of a baseball jersey for a friend who had a one of those triangle shaped Conan avas. I was trying to get the numbers and logos straight on it. 3 hours, 6 uploads and actually using his shape to see the results and it finally came out right.

He gave me $100L for my effort. This same person wouldn't think twice about paying $500L for a pre-made Redgrave jacket or something.
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Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
08-03-2009 20:04
From: Snickers Snook

He gave me $100L for my effort. This same person wouldn't think twice about paying $500L for a pre-made Redgrave jacket or something.


Ouch.
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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
08-03-2009 20:33
Making scripted books and booksets is not a terribly onerous task, at least in-world: the scripts are standard, and I have the production of the book shapes and sculpties down to a fine art. But preparing the individual textures in Photoshop IS a fairly lengthy process, esp. because I mostly use scanned covers from antiquarian books.

I charge a pittance -- L$5 per book or bookset at most, and the vast majority are L$1 -- because I'm more interested in having the books used than in making a profit. (Aside: one bookseller in SL that was actually recommended through one of the SL reading groups charges $75 and up for dummy books that don't even have actual texts associated with them. And they don't even LOOK as good as mine. I was livid when I saw they were "recommended" ... :mad: )

There IS a market for books in SL -- you only need to look at the number of libraries in SL. I have reasonably good traffic, people DO use and buy the books, and I make enough of a profit on donations and such to fork out for the occasional new outfit or hair. But I have been utterly dismayed and put off by the response of the "educational community" here.

Sorry, that was background. Here's the point. I went on to SLED -- the SL educator's list -- in June, and offered to produce functioning customized books for in-world courses that they were teaching in September FOR FREE.

Did I get a SINGLE response from one of these SL educators? NO.

I think the residents of SL can be pretty proud of themselves: they ARE, as a group, really rather literate, and do use the resources here.

As for the college and university teachers here? Pah. I guess they don't use books in postsecondary education anymore ...

(Sorry. Did that sound just a little bitter? I've done venting now. :D )

ETA: I should note that I DO have a number of good friends among educators here, who ARE very supportive. But I am deeply unimpressed by the breed, to be honest.
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Scylla Rhiadra
Namssor Daguerre
Imitates life
Join date: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,423
08-03-2009 21:19
I charge a flat rate of 395 US$ for my custom skin work. It is very specifically outlined on my web site as to what it covers (and what it does not). I have the creation process streamlined, so I am able to calculate accurately how many hours I spend on a project.

Most of my clients are developers that are using my service as part of a larger package deal for clients of their own. Very rarely do I get an individual resident serious enough about the custom work to even take it to the drawing board.

I think Sylvia's theory is more or less correct. There are plenty of hobbyists in SL that are willing to do stuff for free or for peanuts (50 cents to a dollar an hour). I'll also add that there are a growing number of applications and automated third party services (i.e. Cyber Extruder in my line of business) that give people less expensive options to turn to. I liken the automated services to running some filters in Photoshop that simulate an artist's style versus actually hiring the Artist. The Artist is always going to charge a premium because they need to earn a living at what they do. The hobbyist doesn't worry about that, and the automated service deals in volume driven cookie cutter processes (I know somebody's gonna jump all over that, but that is my opinion).

All in all, the custom work I do is less than 5% of my net. the other 95% comes from the steady sales of pre-existing SL product. The custom business has always been a "side" business for me, and probably always will be.
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
08-03-2009 21:31
Main Grid, Alice Region

Desmond's modest shop parcel






December 2005






..."so I was going to ask you, how much would a greenhouse to go along with this Victorian house set me back?"

..."I don't know sir... I've done a few custom things before, I suppose a greenhouse wouldn't be too hard."

"Well think about it. I want it to be really, really good."

"How about this, sir. $L 4000, straight deal, and I work hard to make you happy."

"Done! Hey, tell me... why don't you ever come down from up here?"

"Long story, sir. I guess I'm just not suited for much other than building quietly."




~ * ~ The Very Next Day ~ * ~


"Hey, looks like you've got something! I thought I would watch and comment as you build!"

"Ah... no problem sir."

"Wonderful! You are a good man, Des ol' chap."

"Thank you sir."

*a few minutes pass in silence...*

"Hey, Des... I was thinking..."

"Yes? Sorry, was in Photoshop"

"Des, could you please make the glass sort of... humid looking on the inside?"

"Of course. Let me see what I can do."

*twenty minutes pass...*

"Des, how are you doing?"

"Just uploading, sir. Have a look."

"Oh wonderful! Condensation on glass! Perfect for a conservatory!"

"Applying it now."

*two minutes pass...*

"Hey Des... you know... that's kind of light... can you make it look more...opaque kinda?"

"I shall try, but there's this thing called the alpha sorting bug."

"Des, I don't understand, what?"

"Ah... it will flicker badly if two textures are near each other."

"Can you just try it for me?"

"Okay. Going back to photoshop, a few moments please."

"Hey, wow Des, you sure were right! This looks Terrible! Can you fix it?"

"Not without changing the design greatly, sir."

"Well, hey, I think we should try... "



~ * ~ Four Days Later ~ * ~


"Des, this just isn't coming out with your usual flair..."

"Indeed, I understand."

"I don't get it... what's wrong?"

"Well, I have been designing to your specifications nightly, sir. Precisely what you ask for."

"I know... I know... I just want to get it right, you see. I have this vision of it."

"It's a great vision. This is about as close as I can come to it with the tools I have, sir."

((IM: "Desmond this guy has been here four days straight why do you put up with this?";))

((reply to IM: "I kinda promised him this, I had no idea it would take so long!";))

((IM: "shrug... up to you, but I think you are crazy";))

((IM: "the greenhouse isn't all that good either";))

((reply to IM: "I know, I know... silent tears";))

"Des old boy, see what you can do, I promised this greenhouse to my honey and we want it delivered tomorrow if you can."

"I shall desperately strive to Complete This Project Tomorrow!"

"Good man! Well, I'm getting really tired sitting up with you, so, good night."

"Good night, sir."


* * * * *


That was the last custom job I ever did.

I've done a few builds for charity or special friends or special purpose; the last significant build of mine was Caledon Oxbridge, but as for taking money... no.

Though if anyone REALLY wanted me to... 150 an hour. USD, not $L. Not joking, either. If in any doubt as to why so much, re read the above. :)
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Void Singer
Int vSelf = Sing(void);
Join date: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,973
08-03-2009 21:33
it's funny, I do almost the exact opposite... Almost all my work is custom, and occasionally products come out of it (which I mostly sell through others)

but then I'm a hobbyist, I do it mostly for my own enjoyment, not for a living. this allows me to take on projects that I'm not as interested in on RL wage basis, and still charge a pittance for work that really interests me, and that I might reuse for other things. because all the work is custom, I pick and choose which projects will get me what I need... if I need a bit of cash I might go after a boring project that pays well, if I'm not having the fun I want I schedule in more "fun" projects.... and if I don't feel like doing any of it, I just say, sorry, my schedule is booked up, you'll either need to wait, check with someone else, or make it worth my while.

ETA:
::feels for Des::
been there done that... now I get specifications up front, and work ALONE =)
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Mickey McLuhan
She of the SwissArmy Tail
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 1,032
08-03-2009 21:34
We stopped doing customs a while ago, as it seems that people don't seem to understand value for money... or money for value.

We were offering custom furry avs. My partner sells her regular furry AVs for L800 each. That's the off-the-rack version.

People were approaching us asking for full prim, custom textured, fully featured AVs and offering L1500 for it.
I wish I could say that this was the exception, but the vast majority thought that twice to three times the price of a standard av was an appropriate price for a completely custom AV.

The sad thing is, the cheaper they were, the more insitant and pushy they were... and the more demanding that the piece be unique!

We finally stopped offering after the grajillionth person freaked out on us when we gave them a more reasonable quote. Many of them accused us of stealing from them. Not "your customers", which, while invalid, would make more sense, THEM. "You are stealing from me". No money changed hands, but we're stealing... wow.

So, yeah. I can't speak for everyone, but I think there is certainly a factor in there of "Not wanting to deal with self-entitled @$$holes who think the world owes them a favour and that they should get everything they want for free.", of which there are MANY on SL...
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Priya Blaisdale
Registered User
Join date: 28 Jul 2008
Posts: 53
I still do some...
08-03-2009 21:45
I price individually, not so much by the hour. Depends on what the item is, how detailed, and what it is going to be used for. I also take into consideration what perms they want. Its hard, and sometimes i bite off more than I should, and I have had to finally turn down one make so far. I never thought of charging by the hour, as I didnt have a clue how to determine that. I make gorean clothing, role play clothing. Can be very detailed. Love this thread!
Kyrah Abattoir
cruelty delight
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,786
08-03-2009 21:48
In the BDSM RL stuffs you just have to look at the price of quality custom made gears compared to realize in our world there is a huge misconception on the value of unique things and the attached labor.

Peoples want custom stuffs but they are completely used to the price of mass produced goods they freak out when they see it represent 5 to 10 times the price of an off the shelf item.

Well that is, if you give any value to your time.


I had a discussion a while ago with a RL bdsm designer in a pub and we where talking about the prices and custom work and he was explaining me that it was more of a passion than an actual job, because when you remove the actual price for the raw material he doesn't really make much of an income (he does have another job at the same time) .
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Void Singer
Int vSelf = Sing(void);
Join date: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,973
08-03-2009 21:55
full perms = hourly wage
exclusive = double hourly

fun stuff = discount
stuff I can use elsewhere = discount
stuff I will turn into a product = discount
minor/public domain = tips
personal friends/family = remember me in your will or something.
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Rusalka Writer
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 314
08-03-2009 23:38
I don't do custom because of the amount I'd have to charge to make it worthwhile. I do take suggestions for products, and that keeps my build list very full indeed!
Lota Lyon
Registered User
Join date: 5 Oct 2006
Posts: 245
08-04-2009 00:27
I'll do custom art but only if the customer can provide me with a concise yet detailed description of what they want, that I can "visualize". Which means I’ll seldom take on custom work. If I do a custom job, I’ll only charge between L$500 to L$1000 since art is my hobby, not my profession. If I do something in RL for a friend I only ask them to pay what the actual materials cost also. I’m not really charging anything in SL when you consider L$500 is less then $2 but charging a “token” will keep requests to a minimum. Since I do art to please myself its not a given your project will be enjoyable to me either. Things I sell in SL I sell for L$10 regardless of how long they took to do (which can be from 30 minutes to several hours) since as I said, I’m doing it for my own enjoyment. I have a RL friend who is a graphic illustrator and makes around $29.50/hour working for a major PR Co. and wouldn’t think of do art in as a hobby in RL or SL, since to her its “work”. I can sort of understand that since I would NEVER consider doing what I do professionally in RL in SL.

Back when I ran an escort/strip club, again as a hobby/fantasy, I once paid someone L$35,000 for a custom script (my husband about had a stoke too :rolleyes: ) and I think we used it for a week, before we replaced it with the original off the shelf script we had been using. That was the last time I ever paid that kind of money for any custom work!
Deira Llanfair
Deira to rhyme with Myra
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,315
08-04-2009 01:11
I will make custom animations - even though I know I cannot charge the full economic cost of doing the work. I do it because I treat SL as a hobby and make a judgement on whether I want to spend my spare time doing this. It helps if the animation has some re-sale value - a completely exclusive one I'd probably only make as a favour to a friend or for a recognised charity.

If I treated it as a serious business, I would have to charge £500 - 600 per day - and some animations can take weeks to do. This just is not viable in SL - so I have to be pragmatic.

Having said that - I could not afford SL if my in-world business did not cover costs. I would have to reduce tier (which I actually did last year) or even go to basic - so I can't afford to completely ignore the finances.

Viewing it more as a hobby does mean that I'm always very busy and have a long list of "things to do", but if this helps others to enjoy SL more, and pays my membership and tier, then it is time well spent. The "Head-Desk and Palm-Face ones will make it to the top of list eventually!
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Marcel Flatley
Sampireun Design
Join date: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,032
08-04-2009 01:48
In the beginning of my furniture business, I did customs, but nowadays no more. My 3 businesses keep me busy enough as they are, and products I create eventually make more money when I sell them from the store. So the time I can spend in SL, all goes to those businesses, for customs I simply do not have the time.

What I do like, is product idea's. Once I had a customer asking for a small bar, and he was quite detailed in the size and shape. So I created the bar, and sold enough of them to make it worth my time. The customer was happy because he payed a normal price, and I was happy because I had a new product.

Just finished 4 connected buildings for my Zidra parcels, and I am quiet pleased with the results. They are derived from the custom building I did for the RLF exposition. But if I consider the hours put into it, I doubt that doing a custom like that for a paying customer would be interesting. Since I do not sell buildings in my stores, it would be a one time job, and even as a hobbyist I know how to value my time :-)
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whyroc Slade
Sculpted and Blended
Join date: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 315
08-04-2009 01:58
For a time I really tried hard to make custom sculpties for folks, and made some ok money at it. The problem is there is no way to tell what kind of client you are dealing with and even then it can be very frustrating and time consuming working out a contract. Out of 10 potential customers 2/10 customers will be keepers, 7/10 will not pan out , and 1/10 will make you wish you never heard of second life and shake your head about the state of the world. Issues like language barriers, RL situation and personality play a big role in how motivated I can get to complete a project for someone else's vision.

There are 3 things that turn me off completely in doing custom work. A couple times I have just refunded any deposit and told the client to move on.. 1 bossiness - just because you have paid me 20us equivalent in deposit does not mean you are my boss now. 2 entitlement - when someone acts like they deserve to get my high end services for next to nothing I expect at least some common courtesy and patience for the creative process. 3 when the scope creeps to include other things, or other people get involved in the discussion, the customers bosses or husbands or whatever.

There are so many different ideas of what SL work is worth that it takes too much effort to find the right customer and in the end is not worth it. As others have pointed out there is not much incentive to make custom stuff when I can sell hundreds in my shop.

I do have a handful of good customers in the fashion business whom I continue to make sculpties for here and there that's because 1.I get good requirements from them, 2.I can ask a reasonable rate and they pay no questions, 3.They ask for very few changes after the fact 4.I can see how my help is making their business a success. 5.they have patience for artists and understand the muse of making creative things.

-w
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Chosen Few
Alpha Channel Slave
Join date: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 7,496
08-04-2009 02:56
Heads up: long post. But well worth the read if you're interested in doing custom work. :)



Custom work is all I do. I dabbled in off-the-shelf products years ago, but there just wasn't enough fun in it for me. I'm not one to find the motivation to say "OK, time to make that new tank-top in 25 different colors" every day. I wish I could do that, actually, because I'd probably make a fortune off it if I did, but it's just not me.

I'm a consultant. That's what I'm good at. I enjoy working with people (even if the majority of it isn't face to face). When it's for a client, I'm ALWAYS motivated.

I advise my clients on what will and won't work, what's compelling and what's not, as we shape their vision together, and then I bring it into reality for them. That planning process can take anywhere from a day or two to several weeks, depending on the complexity of the project, and the communication skills of the client. All the basic details go in writing, in the form of a project proposal. Assuming the proposal is accepted, and we've agreed on a price, I then draw up a contract which has all the same information in it, along with all the requisite legalese, and then I don't lay a single prim or paint a single pixel until the client has signed it. Nothing happens until it's a certainty that they know exactly what to expect from me, and I from them.

In other words, I run my business like a business. I do precisely the same thing as every real-world (competent) professional consulting architect, graphic designer, programmer, etc. Consulting is consulting is consulting.

As for rates, at the risk of sounding a little harsh, frankly, I weep for those of you who can't bring yourselves to charge what your worth. Briana, you're absolutely right that L$2500 per hour is not worth your time. That's less than $10. That might be great if you live in an impoverished country or something, but in many parts of the US, it costs more than that just to eat a decent breakfast.

I hate to break this to some of you, but really, professional digital artists typically bill at anywhere from US$30 to US$300 or more per hour. If you're good at what you do, open your eyes and realize you're a valuable commodity, worth serious money. Otherwise, you do yourself a very real disservice, both financially and psychologically, by working for micropayments.

I choose to work with clients who can afford to pay me what I'm worth. Anything less, and what I do becomes a hobby, not a job. That's not a direction I want to go.

That's not to say there's anything wrong with being a hobbyist, of course. If you get enjoyment out of creating for SL, and making it a job is the furthest thing from your mind, great! Keep right on doing what you're doing. There are plenty of rewards to be had besides money. Enjoy every moment of it, sincerely. My financial comments are aimed strictly at the people who DO want to make money from it, but for whatever reason, haven't been valuing themselves properly. There's far too much of that going on in SL, in my opinion.

Now, can everyone in SL hire me? No way. But not everyone in RL can afford to hire people either. Most people in the world are employees, not employers, and most of us are fine with that. We pick and choose who we work for, all of us. There's no reason it should be any different in SL.

I realize some people see working above the average SL consumer's price range as losing business. I would encourage you to let go of that point of view. Consider the following. Most people reading this right now are employees of SOMEWHERE in RL. As an employee, would you agree to go to work for a company who you know doesn't have the money to put in your paycheck at the end of the week? I very much doubt that you would.

Why should the rules be any different for consultants? I have bills just like everyone else, and I need to be paid just like everyone else. The last thing I want to do is waste my valuable time doing work for people who can't afford to pay me what I'm worth. THAT would be losing business. Every hour I spend doing that is an hour I can't spend either working with, or earning the business of, a real client who CAN pay me.

You might be thinking "What happens when someone 'balks', as Briana put it, at the prospect of paying RL rates?" Well, sticker-shock is going to happen from time to time. It's no big deal. My outlook is that if someone's going to freak out because my estimate is a few hundred or a few thousand dollars more than they were expecting, they came to the wrong place. That's on them, not me. My answer to them is always the same: "There are plenty of people in SL who are content to work for micropayments. If you'd like, I could recommend a few. But you came to me because I'm a professional. If you want what I can deliver for you, this is what it costs. Should we keep going, or would you like me to refer you to a hobbyist?" Sometimes they opt for a hobbyist, and sometimes they opt for me. Either way, the right decision is made by both of us.

I should also mention the opposite happens too. I've had plenty of clients come to me after they've gotten burned by already having gone the cheapo route once. Their project doesn't look how they wanted it, and they're not happy about it. I tell them what I can do to fix it, and they tell me I'm a godsend, and that I'm worth every penny.

While I do feel bad whenever I learn that someone has wasted money (and even worse that someone else got away with taking it after doing crappy work), I love those kinds of clients because they're the ones who REALLY understand the value of my services. They've learned with all certainty that you really do get what you pay for. Treat those people well, and they'll stick with you for life.

Remember, the enjoyment they're going to get out of what you're providing them is far more lasting than whatever amount of money they hand you in exchange for delivering it. No matter what the amount, you will have spent it within a few days, a few weeks, or maybe a few months at most. They're going to be enjoying their island far longer than that. Whether you charge a little or a lot, they always get a better deal than you do. So you might as well charge as much as is reasonable for your own time.


One more thing I should probably talk about on the subject of rates is that it's not uncommon for a client to want more than they can afford. That's fine, as long as you handle it properly. Don't drop your price to try to save the deal. That makes you look like a greedy bastard who was just trying to see what you could squeeze out of them. They'll lose all respect for you right then and there, and you'll never get it back.

Instead, guide them into a resolution that will be positive for both of you. Remember, you're the consultant. Consult. They want to do business with you; help them to do it.

Perhaps a phased rollout would be in order. You do the portion of the project that they can afford now, so they have something that works for the time being, even if it's not as grandiose as the whole thing would have been. Then you simply add on over time, as they get more money. Imagine having ten or twenty clients in that situation. All those add-ons could be steady work for you for the next year or two, without even having to fish for new business.

Or, if you're comfortable taking more of a risk, you could offer financing. Deliver the project for a downpayment, and then have the client make monthly payments thereafter, until they've paid the whole thing off. I don't actually do that, but plenty of people do.

Where there's a will, there's almost always a way. If you've got someone who wants to do business with you, the hard part is done. The monetary details are a much smaller hill to climb. You won't always be able to make it work, of course. But often, you can.



I won't name names, but here's a story that illustrates many of the above points. A friend of mine once referred me to a couple of clients who run a large theme-based group in SL, which relates to their RL business. They own an island, which has a successful club on it, and they wanted to expand to include a retail store, some fun & games areas, a better looking club, and replica of one of their RL houses for mixed reality events.

It turned out they had already done the el-cheapo thing, and they were very unhappy after having done it. Their island looked all kinds of terrible. Not only was it seriously one of the ugliest and least functional builds I'd ever seen, but it looked absolutely nothing like the 2-minute description they'd just given me for what they wanted. It was awful. I can't even imagine what that builder was thinking while working on it.

I talked with them a bit further about what they actually wanted, and I took notes on the conversation. Two days later, I sent them a formal proposal, which included drawings of what I would build for them were they to hire me. We set up a date for a conference call for a few days after that, to decide the next step.

It turned out that a lot of what they wanted happened to include items that SL is not very good at doing, like ice sculptures and such. The building and texturing was going to take serious time, in order for it all to be up to my quality standard. So when I calculated my estimate, it came out in the neighborhood of $20,000.

Was sticker-shock in store? Would they faint at all those zeros, and tell me to take a hike? Read on.

On the conference call, they were very upfront in telling me several things. One, they had been shopping around, and had several other proposals in hand from other artists, in addition to mine. Two, there was no way they could afford that $20,000 price tag at that time. Three, my estimate was by far the highest of the lot, almost four times higher, in fact, than the next highest one.

Sounds bad, right? No way I'm getting the job, right? Quit being so defeatist, you!

Actually, it sounded exactly on the right track to me. It was everything I had been expecting they would say, and I knew precisely what was coming next.

Four, my proposal was the ONLY one that perfectly reflected their wants and needs. My drawings of the build were, in their words, "like you pulled them straight out of our heads, exactly what we want, exactly."

You see, the numbers don't lie. I know how long it takes me to do things. If there's $20,000 worth of labor in there, there's $20,000 worth of labor. Any estimate that said otherwise was put together either by someone who didn't know the first thing about what would really be involved here, or by someone who valued themselves so lowly that there would be no way they could be counted on to be consistently professional for the duration. So OF COURSE the client would want me, if THAT was my competition. I would only have had cause to worry if the other estimates were in the same neighborhood as mine. I had nothing to fear from amateurs. I knew it, and so did the client.

But there was still the unfortunate truth that they physically did not have $20,000 to spend, especially after having wasted a couple grand on the previous incarnation of the build. What to do? You guessed it, phased rollout.

We settled on a $6000 portion of the build that they could afford immediately. They would just do without the rest until they could put some more money together.

(That actually turned out to be blessing in disguise for them, by the way, because SL's been evolving in the mean time. With all the improvements to sculpties in recent months, along with some newly developed texturing techniques I picked up, certain things can be done a lot quicker now than before. Consequently, I was able to send them a revised estimate for the remaining work, which was about 20% cheaper than the previous one.)

They've already come back to me twice now for add-ons. Nothing big, just a hundred bucks here, a couple hundred there. But I know the rest is out there. Over the course of probably the next year or so, there's around $10,000 worth of business to be had from these particular clients, if not more. All I need to do is maintain the relationship, which is a heck of a lot easier than establishing it in the first place.

So like I said, charge what your worth, and be matter-of-fact about it. Don't ever be afraid to just say, "This is what it costs." Above all, treat your clients, and yourself, fairly, with dignity, and with respect.



Oh, by the way, don't think every deal I land is for $20,000. My minimum per job is only 2 hours, and my rates are reasonable, well within the standard range for RL digital artists, and toward the lower end of the scale at that. It's not all that expensive to live here in Buffalo, so I don't need to charge as much as people in places like NYC and LA.
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Deira Llanfair
Deira to rhyme with Myra
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,315
08-04-2009 03:52
@Chosen

I am full of admiration for you and agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately my experience is more along the lines of Des's post!

I must say though that it does help if your final product is "big" - in the sense that there is a lot of it to see. A lot of value for money is in the perception and a 10 second animation does not look very much, even if it took a (wo)man week of effort to make.

May I ask a few questions? - No need to answer if you prefer not to.

Do you establish a legally binding contract for the work? The customer may need to agree to provide certain things/information/take certain actions/agree payment schedule.
Do you cost in the time you spend up-front in producing your proposal? This is obviously a big job and could be time completely lost.
Would you ask for a deposit up-front?
What do you do about meeting time scales? If you are held up for any reason, would your customer withhold payment?
What do you do about invoicing and debt chasing?
Do you get formal contract sign-off/job closure?
Do you manage all this yourself, or do you have staff?
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Kelli May
karmakanic
Join date: 7 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,135
08-04-2009 04:18
I've had similar problems to these with RL custom work. People often don't understand that custom means breaking with habits of style and method that I am familiar with, hence creating more work. Also, they can often see the finished product in their mind, but can't get that idea across to you well enough for you to build it. If they can understand that custom == expensive, they can run away with the idea that expensive == special personal attention, and you can get the problem Desmond described. I also hate the "design me this horrible-looking thing" requests... something they love but I will hate, and more to the point, I'll hate other people seeing with my name on.

I don't the pressure and deadlines that come with custom work. Inspiration strikes me rarely, and it's even rarer that inspiration generates a product. By taking on a commission, I'm setting the expectation that the customer will get their whateveritis in a week, or a month, or at least *eventually*. And because they're paying extra, they expect it to be special. If it takes a long time, they probably expect it to be extra special, whereas longer, for me, means I'm having problems and it'll end up less than special. That kind of pressure kills my creativity.
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VooDoo Bamboo
www.voodoodesignsllc.com
Join date: 4 Oct 2006
Posts: 911
08-04-2009 04:52
Great post. This is something I have done on and off as well.
Back in the day I did a ton of custom work however back in the day I feel that SL was populated more by people who had a true love for the grid and who understood the workings of the grid and understood the way Second Life was designed. What I mean by that is they understood that Second Life was nothing more then waste land and it was up to us the users to make it a wold in that we all can love. I really feel that mission has been lost along the way. It seems that most people these days on the grid want custom work but don't want to pay the price. They do not seem to understand the amount of time and work that goes into some of these projects. The grid is just not what in once was in the way of its population.
Times change I know but it would be nice if they changed for the better for once. :-)

And you are right it gets to a point that you have to go so low in price that it is really just not worth the time anymore. I think another thing that drives this is the fact that there are soooooo many people out there creating and there are some that are under cutting what the prices really should be which then in return starts a chain reaction. They go way low on price so then everyone else has to beat or match that so then they drop and yes that is good for the buyer but is it really in the long run? Sure you may get something very cheap because of the price wars but what happens in 6 months when your favorite creator is no longer creating because it is just not worth his or her time anymore...

Think about it.

~Just my 2 cents ;-)
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Amaranthim Talon
Voyager, Seeker, Curious
Join date: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 12,032
08-04-2009 04:54
I have overall not accepted customs 'cause I do not want the pressure of having to do what I may not enjoy in the end and for me this is more fun and hobby. That said- I made a custom sky box once- not exclusive just custom- it was for a friend done because i wanted to so 'payment' was the joy of doing something special. I have fitted m eyelashes for customers free of charge. I know I could charge for it as a service but meh- it's not going to kill me and a happy customer will make more sales likely in the end.

Having said that- I prefer being charged for something I need. Less attendant guilt and while not an entitlement for demands, a certain ease in knowing I can say for example - hey i need this by.. and have a reasonable expectation of timely completion.
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