Logged out By Administrator - L5000 penalty deducted from account destination system

Just a thought.... what would happen if someone with "illegal" money (illegal because it was bought from another source than the LindeX?) walked into my store and bought products worth hundreds of thousands L$? Would LL lock me out and steal my revenue, for being the recipient of "bad bytes"?

I'm going to see if I can get a LL to post some details on that question, I was wondering the same thing just the other night. I would expect they would yoink the L$ but they might also yoink the products purchased from the persons account.

It only affected people who had used the support portal in any way.

From the email:

You said "Yoink". Twice. I like that.

I may be wrong here but I think the answer to this and other similar questions is that LL are accessing the accounts that performed the illegal buy. Once past a transaction with a third party, the sum merely appears as a number on a spreadsheet or balance statement. This is basically money-laundering and thus I believe is the limit to where LL can go with it.

Yesterday I relayed a message to the seller,
via the pay pal conflict management system,
that I also sent to the paypal and ebay customer service.

In this message I requested to receive the
identity and address information of the seller,
stating the fraud and my intent to
forward this information to my laywer,
and initiate further legal actions.

I also hinted at the fact that the claimed status
as a German comany as well the statement
the sellers prices would include 19% sales tax,
would implicate serious legal and financial percussions
from our (german) government.

On a sidenote; as a matter of fact in Germany,
anyone that writes an invoice claiming it to include sales tax,
owes this tax to the government if the invoice is honored.
Our ministry of finance is quite zeleaous in acquiring outstanding funds and
thanks to the European Union common market any company or person inside the EU,
can easily be held responsible.

This morning after only a few hours had passed,
the seller actually retransmitted the cash to my paypal account.

He stated to be just a currency broker
that acted in good faith and to had
taken finacial hits by this occurrance as well.

While I can not of course prove or disprove this claim,
I nevertheless gave him a qualified positive evaluation on ebay,
since his speedy resolvement of the situation was most correct
and how did they say back then ?

In dubio, pro reo...


Cheers and hoping the lengthy update
will be of assitance to others

Dalarian

Actually, that's quite heartening to hear. What I mean is, I know it's frustrating for you that you got locked out at all, but it shows that LL are treating us all equally and that paying in a lot of US$ regularly won't get anyone any kind of special treatment (not that I'm suggesting you were up to no good, but atleast we know that LL are taking a stand against those who are up to no good regardless of how much money they put in - you see what I mean.)

Welcome to credit card fraud 101

You forgot secret option number 3;

- The card is bad and the transaction completes.

You see, there is a chance that the person who Dal bought from acquired the L$ fraudulently - perhaps by using one of those scripted objects we hear about that have been stealing people's money, or perhaps by using a stolen credit card successfully. Many online systems do not use a live authorisation system for transactions below a certain level, say $100/£50. The same is true of gas stations in RL. This means that, even if the card has been reported stolen, it is possible for the card to go through. I used to work for MBNA Europe (am I allowed to mention company names? If not, I'm sure Strife will say so), and we found that the norm for people who steal cards was to go to the nearest gas station and buy cigarettes and pay-as-you-go mobile phone credit vouchers, because they new there was a strong chance that the card would still go through. We would see dozens of transactions for £49.99 ($98 approx) within minutes of each other at different gas stations.

Also, if the person who steals the card is quick, they can use it before the owner of it even knows it is missing - and don't get me started on cloned cards, that's a whole other story.

Say a fraudster spends $100 using a stolen card. When the owner of that card sees their statement and calls their card company to say "Who's this Linden Lab chappy on my statement" and disputes the transaction, the Visa and Mastercard regulations contain mechanisms that allow the card company to then do what is called a chargeback. As the name suggests, this chargeback consists of re-billing LL for the $100, leaving LL $100 out of pocket.

It's a shame that Dal has suffered the loss of L$5000, or more accurately its US$ equivalent, however LL have acted entirely properly in this case.


Thanks for keeping us updated Dal. As someone said before, this cautionary tale should act as a lesson to us all. Buying L$ anywhere but from LL themselves is a gamble - and like any gamble, sometimes it will pay off and sometimes it won't, but the important thing is to remember that piece of old gamblers' wisdom; never bet more than you can afford to lose.

Ill bet there plenty of legitimate charges in Second Life from LL that get disputed as well - when husband/wives who were unaware their spouse was chalking up big charges in a computer game confront them with the statement.

"Ohh -- I dont know what Linden Labs is , Im shocked - SHOCKED!" and so on

I KNOW similair happened to one guy I knew, he claimed he he was divorced , and was paying out large amounts to people I knew in paypal ... problem is the name on his paypal which he claimed to be his sister, was actually the name of his "Ex" wife.

He promptly vanished and deleted after some "RL tragedy"

"Linden Labs? Uhmmmm...You remember Honey. That was for those blood tests I had to take. The Insurance wouldn't cover it. I told you about it. Hey, is that a new dress? You look really nice today. Have you lost weight?"

LOL - in the days before google that mightve worked

I'm confused to about how Lindens could be bought from an illegal source.

I thought that Lindens were play money. Why does Linden Labs care where someone acquired play money?

Linden Labs is acting as if Lindens have an actual value, and we know that can't be the case, since that would expose Linden Labs to legal liability for seizing and losing customers' Lindens.

Awww c'mon. Most men think we are too stupid to use Google. Or are too stupid to figure that we will.

Why are you out of the kitchen?

Because a light blew out, and I can't find a man to change the bulb.

Officially, Lindens are a "license", and Linden Labs can care if one of those is bought with a fradulent transaction.

That and rampant fruad gives them a bad rep.

Dalarian, I'm glad the seller resolved that part of the issue with you!

Thank you Raudf

Since this thread developed
into a more general discussion about the matter at hand,
I just want to throw in my few cents.

The whole question of liablity, consumer rights, status of the Linden,
validity of TOS seems to my instincts and general knowledge like a pandoras box,
expecially since it has to be seen in an international context.

In fraudulent transactions where paypal is involved as intermediary,
the situation becomes even more complicated and rich of implications
by the fact that paypal recently acquired an European Banking Licence.

As to my best but faint knowlegde,
European Law would not care in such a case,
if the goods acquired were material or non material.

The key factor would probably be the duty of the bank to act with all necessary precaution.
If believable claims against an account holders credibility and legality are raised,
a bank has to protect its other customers and initiate proper legal actions.
Failure to do so would very probably make the bank liable to the resultig damage.

As far as TOS, consumer and copy rights in Second Life are concerned,
there is also probably simply not enough unified applicable and specific international legislation to provide concrete and valid legal guidlines.

Linden Labs probably tries to secure a first mover advantage,
and a key role in setting the legal stage,
by defining a position favorable to the company in the TOS and its business practice,
hoping that a court of justice in absence of other applicable models.
would integrated it to a degree in its own base of decision
and by that inhabitating it into the corpus of the american system of case law.

Sorting question like these out,
probably would require the cooperation between several laywers
specialized im the relevant international, national and transnational law.

So we will by all chance get no definitive answer to such questions,
especially in the international context
as long as the financial damage involved
is heavily outweighted by the financial risks of making a legal stand.

Actually I would assume that Linden Labs
is very well aware of this fact,
which also could be interpreted
from the cost prohibitive arbitration clause in the TOS.

From a companies point of view,
such a strategy as the sketched
would be not unwise.

My few.. and Cheers

Dal.

"And what's more, I've never heard of www.comeonmyface.com!! It's all a lie. A LIE I TELL YOU!!"

The above was quite a common call we recieved at MBNA.

Ohhhh Kaaayy ... so *how* did you get out of the kitchen? <frown>

I heard a joke..... (well a GUY joke)..
Why do Brides wear white?





So they match the kitchen appliances...



I had to lengthen the wifes chains that keep her in the kitchen the other day........ so now she can reach in and hand me the TV remote.

Women's Intuition.

Why are women's feet so small?

So they can reach the kitchen sink better.

My question is people are selling illegal lindens on Ebay why are they allowing Ebay to even do it in first place? How do we as customers know what is legitimate person to recieve Lindens when they allow sells on Ebay when they don't allow any other game to sell there game money on EBay.