Lock this too, Cyna..... it informs residents, after all

"ah shut up and just listen
not dissin dont get me wrong
but to me its just the same old song"

with respects to Digital Underground......

after reading through here, many of you make a good point that there are already a few failsafes in place. but, the idea of having something descriptive of the situation as a pop-up on Orientation Island might help a bit.

instead of further complicating the selling process, i think a pop-up for when you first come into SL might be all the help needed.. or, rather, warranted.

perhaps a one time message along these lines: "Please be aware that when you sell land that there are programs and people who can be extremely fast at finding land for sale. if you wish to sell to someone in particular, please make sure to assign the sale as such. Also, be sure to double-check your sale price to be sure you haven't left out a number somewhere."

I doubt it would be read on OI, people entering OI the first time would, more than likely, not even know about land in SL and weould simply close the pop up... However if the first time they sell land the pop up appeared they may pay attention to it.

The problem is that "people" DON'T read these cautionary tips.

My preferred solution to this whole thing is to charge people L$30 to list their "For sale" land on the global land-for-sale list.

Just like they have to to publish a parcel they're not selling.

That way landbots that sit there going "Refresh-refresh-refresh" on the land-for-sale-sorted-by-price-cheapest-first search page won't see parcels.

A fair alternative is to force people to type in the word "ANYONE" in the sell-to field, or the parcel can't be bought by anyone. If they're going to go through that much effort they may as well type in the name of the intended buyer.

Wow, Mention a punks Name and get Blocked, Banned and THROWN OUT. GET R$ipped Off by the PUNK and "Who Cares"! This is just the kind place I am looking to spend my time and Money in!!!!!!!!!! NOT!!!!!!!!

Ignoring the caps and everything else I agree that this is somewhat hypocritical for LL to say come spend your money on land here and yet when someone gets ripped off they blame the victom... I don't blame the OP at all for naming names and suggest that nobody else be afraid to name people like Landbaron Merlin and the other greedy landbotters in threads where appropriate.

Cybin, adding the information into Orientation Island would not be a good choice. A newbie going through OI is having vast amounts of information thrown at them and something like details regarding land sales will be completely lost in the immediate need to figure out how to move, change appearance and use the program. Working with land is advanced knowledge and while I certainly don't want to bag on people who've gotten nailed by bots, there have been a number of fail-safe steps to the sell land dialog over the years to where you really have to not be paying attention to blow it. I do support a 5 minute delay and I support the idea of $30L to list land for sale, even though there will still be people who fail to read the dialog boxes and forge ahead only to end in tears.

Using the internet to search for property means you don't have to be physically near someone, as soon as the property is listed people can start bidding. Bots that merely search and report I have no objection to (other than inferences that they cause lag).



This part I very much agree with, a sticky in the land forum and a blog for reference would in my opinion have an effect of:

a) Warning residents

b) Demonise land bots that are being used in the current fashion.

As they are set up now yes, this would be a waste on Orientation Island. But if a new indoctrination sytem were devised, land dealing should definitely be prt of it. The trading of land is such a highly trumpeted feature and it is so grossly unexplained. As much education as is reasonably possible should be available, because of the potential sums of money involved. Then when they inevitable mistakes are made, the person involved will pretty much be out of luck.

People don't read anything. They click through as quickly as they can.

The buy system is a good example- you choose the buy option on a prim, and you get a box that comes up, showing the contents and the price and stuff, and you can choose to buy or not. People will *still* click click click as fast as they can.

All those EULAs we pagedown through as quickly as possible have turned people blind to these checkpoint ideas.

My suggestion- don't use the regular, teeny interface fonts and things- make a giant, full screen crayola coloured "sell land" window, with everything in really big letters and numbers. If it's mainland, then something which shows the price per m2 and shows the current lowest, or average or whatever for that type of land on the land searches. Something that says "you are offering this land at 10% of the lowest going rate- are you sure you want to?"

I dunno, something like that. Mostly I think Really Big Words would do it. Like giant sized, unmissable stuff.

With a really annoying Sound Wav attached to it.

This is slightly OT but for those who remember SL setting my land for sale way too low despite originally displaying the correct amount.

The purchaser said she thought it was genuine and wouldn't have bought it for the full price.

Thought it was reasonable to be selling prime island beach land for 1L per sqm!!! Yeah sure you did toots.

Cue a ton of bleating about the tier. And then the poetic justice of this hit me ... sure, she'd ripped me a bit but with the tumbling prices she's actually not really ripped me that badly but she has shot herself in the foot.

Heyho she'll not pay the tier and the estate owner (totally unhelpful and off my love list) will claim her land and resell it. LOL ... he is off my love list all right cos if I sell now with a month's tier paid and the new seller sets up a tier agreement he won't refund me my month. So ... bargain up for grabs with the tier already paid.

Even his best friend thought he was being unfair with that one but ... yanno what? Mainland is the new island

Newbies at Orientations Island are just trying to figure out how to walk and talk at that point. Do you really think they’re going to take the time to stop and read about something as advanced as land purchasing and bot warnings? And most helpers there would rather stick with answering questions like “how do I get this box off my head”.
But…maybe a tutorial at Help Island would make more sense.

DK

Yes, people who fail to price their parcel correctly and set it for sale to Anyone, only to see the land sell (for the price they set) to Anyone have every right to complain about how they were "ripped off." Notice how the landbot held a gun to the person's head and insisted they set the land for a low price and set it to Anyone? Oh noes! The horror. The horror.

Err... wait a minute... but the person set the price and sale information themselves? Oh noes. It's still obviously a rip off because Anyone means Anyone and... oh... but they set the land sales tab to Anyone.

Yeah, before we can call it a rip off something actually has to be ripped off. Someone crying "sour grapes" after selling their parcel for L$1 to Anyone wasn't ripped off. There was no actual theft.

So give people the additional information regarding land bots in the sale window, warn people that these things exist. People who use bots, snap up a piece of land for L$1 and then receive an im, know damn well that they've taken advantage of someone. There's absolutely no denying this.

Of course when someone takes advantage of a mistake by Linden labs themselves, it's a different story.

Agreed that adding land sale warnings to OI would be overwhelming and most likely ignored. I liked Ace's idea of the full screen sale window, at least for first time sellers.

"Anyone" means "anyone." After the transaction the seller can't stand there and complain, "Oh, THAT'S what you meant by 'anyone.'"

However, the word "anyone" in the land sales warning dialogue could be appended to read, "And by marking this parcel for sale to anyone it means anyone can buy including Landbots, Space Aliens, Morelock, Eloi, Your Ex-Girlfriend, Your High School Gym Coach, etc etc etc."

See what's happening there? We now have to go into an lengthy explanation of the word "Anyone" with a person who seems to have a habit of blithely ignoring warning dialogues. It wouldn't matter if the word "Anyone" was followed with an embedded Quicktime movie featuring a one-minute cartoon about the word "anyone" the aforementioned Landbots, Space Aliens, etc.

Yes, yes... we all feel simply terrible for the person who marked their parcel for sale at L$1 to Anyone... and anyone did buy the land. We must now stop the Earth and rotate it back on its axis to the point in time so that the seller can now come to grips with their mistake. The mistake they made on their own and which now requires endless signage, reminders, signals from space, foil-hat fittings, and all of us to provide an ever-watchful eye for this poor poor person. Let's build our entire lives around this because we can never let this happen again to this jewel of our virtual universe: A person too enfeebled mentally to take a moment to read a warning dialogue and cannot comprehend that the word Anyone means Anyone and yet wishes to also claim they have the right to decide their own actions as an adult.

Gosh. They can't have it boths ways. Especially as thousands of land transactions are conducted everyday and only in rare instances does this mistake occur. There's no fraud or theft or arm-twisting or cajolery. They made a mistake. They did it with their own hands on their own keyboard and mouse. And yet at some point in their lives no one ever took this person aside and explained to them that a bell cannot be unrung and a shattered glass unbroken.

They can gnash their teeth and flail their arms and stamp their feet and insist at the top of their lungs that Mommy Linden return their land to them from the evil villain who purchased the parcel at L$1 that was set to Anyone even though Mommy Linden makes it clear in the Terms of Service that she shan't be getting involved in such things as, though she has the right, she does not have the obligation to pickup and fix and un-mistake every transaction in that particular individual's Second Life. She does not even need to hug them.

If we all put down what we're doing and hug this person /en masse/ will they shut up? Will they endeavor to do better in the future? Or will they endlessly repeat the mistake? Will they ever learn the lesson that Anyone means Anyone?

Tomorrow, or the day after, or the day after that, there will be a new landbot thread, or this-bot thread, or that-bot thread, and we will be warned about how this is the most horrible fraud imaginable and ruining the Second Life of some carbon-based lolcat who can't take a moment to think about what they're doing while they slam their Hot Pockets-stained fingers all over their keyboards.

Enough. Enough. Enough.

But...but...

For a second consider that the new resident still filters his SL experience through his RL experience because all our actions are based on our past actions. So if I never have had the experience of a person materializing out of nowhere, I assume I will be safe in setting land to Anyone if there is no one else around.

Yes, the seller is still guilty of being a bit lazy and not taking the time to search for the name of the avatar standing next to him that he is about to sell land to, but I would not blame them for THINKING there is no problem. In his universe of experience, there is nothing to prepare him for the bot swoop that is about to take place. That is why I cut the Hot pocket finger dude more slack than you do, Elex.

Here is my best idea of a solution, that I posted to another thread: After someone buys a parcel, the seller would get this notice: (AVATAR NAME) has purchased your land on (SIM NAME) for (PRICE). Do you want to confirm and finalize this sale?

If you do, click yes, if not click no and you would get your land back. After two hours, this sale will become official if the seller did not respond to the question. So if you were online when you made your mistake, you could answer immediately. If you were offline, it means that you most likely did not set the land in error. After two hours, the sale would be finalized if you did not answer either way.

LOL! That was awesome, Elex, thanks!

Ah, yes... the Laziness Clause located in Section WTF Part ?!? of the Terms of Service which lets people off the hook for their careless mistakes. It's based on the UN-mandated right to be Universally Lazy at all times and with no deleterious consequences.

And assofarass as a person's "universe of experience" BEFORE they could sell the land they had to BUY the land. By doing so they had become a landowner and now had an obligation to learn more about their asset (and how to protect it).

People make mistakes, Linden Labs made one, however they didn't shrug their shoulders and say tough titty.

If a shopkeeper overcharges me and I notice, I tell them. If a shopkeeper undercharges me and I notice, I tell them. A land bot supporter however wouldn't tell the shopkeeper that a mistake had been made, even when it's pointed out. They'd shuffle away pretending they hadn't heard.

You're referencing Bragg v. Linden Lab in which a resident triggered auctions in advance of them being listed so they could buy the land at their own price and which also prevented other people from taking place in the auction (market manipulation... a naughty no no).

Linden Lab didn't shrug their shoulders. They cancelled the person's account.

And then they said, "Tough titty."

Landbots and the case of Bragg v. Linden Lab are two entirely separate things.

In the case of landbots, there is no fraud as the land is being placed on the market by the seller.

In the case of Bragg v. Linden Lab there was fraud as the land was placed on the market by the buyer.

I did not say it let them off the hook. They are on the hook. And in your mind, filleted and gutted.

If you look at the blog on the issue, Linden Labs said:

"Use of the exploit not only harmed Linden Lab, but Second Life Residents as well, by disrupting the in-world economy. If those who used the exploit had succeeded, not only would have they profited unfairly, but they also could have sold their parcels at below-market prices and still made a profit, putting legitimate sellers at a disadvantage.

Consistent with the goals of its Community Standards and the provisions of its Terms of Service, Second Life is designed to be a safe environment where users can express themselves, be creative, and develop safe and legitimate relationships and businesses. Mr. Bragg’s use of the exploit was contrary to the goals of the Community Standards and violated the Terms of Service."

Which is pretty much what land bots do. Oh they don't use an exploit you'll say and you're right, but in terms of economy, good will and taking advantage of mistakes, they most certainly fit the bill.

What bothers me most: There's no fraud involved. No crime. No bad act being committed. Simply another resident purchasing land that another resident put up for sale. And it just so happens that it was the seller's fault to place the land at L$1 and to Anyone and the buyer is now the villain. The seller wants to use that word that means "fraud when there is no fraud."