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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
08-12-2008 09:08
From: Chip Midnight
If a scam is a fraudulent business scheme, then what do you suppose the key word there is? Could it be, oh I don't know, fraud? <stupidities>
Let me see now. Is there a key word in the 3-word phrase? I don't see one. Hmmm. Let me look a bot closer...

A scam is a "fraudulent business scheme; a swindle"

Oh to heck with it Chip. I can't be arsed with you. It is just so silly to believe what you wrote about it. You know exactly what a scam is.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
08-12-2008 09:27
From: Phil Deakins
Let me see now. Is there a key word in the 3-word phrase?


Um, wow. Just... wow.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
08-12-2008 09:50
From: Chip Midnight
Um, wow. Just... wow.
The light has dawned? :)

Yes indeed. Each of the 3 words is key to the meaning of the 3-word phrase. That's why there are 3 of them. 1 word on its own doesn't convery the meaning of the phrase. In fact 1 word on it's own means something different. It's only when you put them together that they take on the precise meaning of the phrase. It's easy when you see it, huh? ;)
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
08-12-2008 09:57
From: Phil Deakins
I have at least been called a thief by Sling, and I don't think I am out of order if I respond to it in kind. I didn't in that particular case. But if you call me a thief, don't be surprised if I call you a bucket of shit. And don't object with it either. Find fault with the one who started it.

I don't remember each individual insult that I've received from each individual person, but I can promise you that, if I've insulted Sling, it is solely because she insulted me. If you want to correct me, be my guest, but it needs quotes and post numbers for verification as to which occured first.

Incidentally, Collete doesn't remember the insults either. She is just stirring when she says, "Well I do see Sling was also subjected to a lot of rude language by Phil in this thread." without including the insults/rudenesses the other way.

People get what they ask for from me. If they discuss seriously, that's all it will ever be. If they throw insults at me, they get usually them back - often with interest - and it will be well deserved.



Hey!
I just thought that I might comment on this one.
I don't need looking after.
In my experience of on-line fora, one of the major causes of drama is people coming to the defence of other people. That always seems to inject elevated passion. :)

I don't feel in the least insulted by any comments here.
In order to be an insult, it would have to come from someone That I consider to be worthy of respect. It would also have to be accurate.

If I use a term here such as 'cheat', 'thief' or 'griefer' I am trying to describe the actions of a person. I am describing my feeling about an activity.
When I used those terms, I explained the logic behind my use of them. It was not name-calling.


>>
"But if you call me a thief, don't be surprised if I call you a bucket of shit."
<<
Now THAT's name-calling


So please! Nobody try to defend me from anything or anybody.
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Maggie: We give our residents a lot of tools, to build, create, and manage their lands and objects. That flexibility also requires people to exercise judgment about when things should be used.
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
08-12-2008 10:04
Jesus Christ. Are you friggin serious?

From: Phil Deakins
The light has dawned? :)

Yes indeed. Each of the 3 words is key to the meaning of the 3-word phrase. That's why there are 3 of them. 1 word on its own doesn't convery the meaning of the phrase. In fact 1 word on it's own means something different. It's only when you put them together that they take on the precise meaning of the phrase. It's easy when you see it, huh? ;)
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From: Albert Einstein
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them.
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
08-12-2008 10:10
From: Zaphod Kotobide
Jesus Christ. Are you friggin serious?


It would be hilarious if it wasn't so creepily pathological.
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
08-12-2008 10:11
I'd like to think it can be both :)

From: Chip Midnight
It would be hilarious if it wasn't so creepily pathological.
_____________________
From: Albert Einstein
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them.
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
08-12-2008 10:12
From: Zaphod Kotobide
Jesus Christ. Are you friggin serious?


And now I know why Pie posted that story.
Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
08-12-2008 10:48
From: Phil Deakins
...........
From: Sling Trebuchet

Would you therefore accept that LL's intention in 'traffic' was the presence of live users , and that measures such as traffic bots work against LL's intentions?

Yes.

From: Sling Trebuchet

They subvert the intention of the traffic metric.

Yes.


I think that your answers are helpful.
You are saying that you believe that the use of traffic bots is contrary to the design intention of LL and that they are subversive of the system.
Despite that belief, you use traffic bots, defend their use and intend to continue to use them for you own gain.


Then we move to the question of the systematic buying of Picks and/or use of alt Picks (as a form of bot).


From: Phil Deakins

No. LL could not have thought that Picks were a realistic representation of votes (popularity), because half of them at least (my estimate) were being used for personal things and not as favourite places. They couldn't possibly have not known that at the time.

The off-the-shelf system that they bought *needs* IBLs to work well, and LL used what they could to provide IBLs to it. It's as simple as that. Some of the Picks represent popular votes, but at least half of them don't, and they knew it.

They decided to use something for IBLs that was already mostly screwed for the 'popular votes' purpose. It's all they had that could provide a sufficient number of links. Picks camping is only a miniscule amount of the 'screwedness' of Picks. LL chose to use something that simply wasn't working for it.


I wonder if your estimate reflects the global situation.
I'm a profile junkie. I'm forever reading profiles of people I come across. Put me in a space with a bunch of avatars and I'll immediately start on their profiles. Guaranteed!
It can be a great way of discovering places.
In my experience, it is more common to find places in people's Picks than it is to find "My bestest, bestest friend".

Picks were not 'screwed' as an indicator of popular choice.
The effect of the personal friend picks is spread too thinly to have any significant effect on the ranking of the parcels encapsulated in the picks. Unsurprisingly, the parcels encapsulated in the picks tend to be parcels where people spend time. These could be their own parcels, friends parcels, or public parcels where they hang out. Guess what? The parcels in personal picks actually mean something in terms of where avatars like to be.



Picks started to be 'screwed' as soon as someone started to use them to game the search system.

You say that "Picks camping is only a miniscule amount of the 'screwedness' of Picks."
I don't know what data you base this on.
More and more as I travel around I see places that offer reward to people for listing the place in their picks. It's growing all the time.
If Paid Picks is not a major subversion of search now, then it's not going to be long before it becomes one.

Paid Picks are as much a subversion of search as are traffic bots.
You admit that traffic bots are a subversion of the system and contrary to LL's intentions.
I don't believe that your refusal to recognise the subversion caused by paid picks is any more validly based that is your defence of the use of traffic bots.
_____________________
Maggie: We give our residents a lot of tools, to build, create, and manage their lands and objects. That flexibility also requires people to exercise judgment about when things should be used.
http://www.ace-exchange.com/home/story/BDVR/589
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
08-12-2008 11:06
From: Zaphod Kotobide
Jesus Christ. Are you friggin serious?
About the light dawning on him - no. About the meaning of a 3-word phrase - absolutely. That's why we use phrases instead of single words, y'know ;) I'm sorry if it's beyond your comprehesnion. I have tried.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
08-12-2008 11:21
From: Sling Trebuchet
Picks were not 'screwed' as an indicator of popular choice.
The effect of the personal friend picks is spread too thinly to have any significant effect on the ranking of the parcels encapsulated in the picks. Unsurprisingly, the parcels encapsulated in the picks tend to be parcels where people spend time. These could be their own parcels, friends parcels, or public parcels where they hang out. Guess what? The parcels in personal picks actually mean something in terms of where avatars like to be.


Picks have not been about popular places for a lot of people for ages. Ever since I got here I've noticed plenty of people with their friends in their picks and the idea that people enjoy hanging out at the store owned by a friend is stretching it somewhat, they do that to support their friend, not because they think the parcel is cool.

The point with picks is that they were being misused for quite some time but now because of how search works they have more value, so people pay others to list their places.

Picks are simply never going to be a fair system of popularity.
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
08-12-2008 11:21
From: Phil Deakins
About the light dawning on him - no. About the meaning of a 3-word phrase - absolutely. That's why we use phrases instead of single words, y'know ;) I'm sorry if it's beyond your comprehesnion. I have tried.


Phil

the other two words were "Business Scheme"

are you trying to claim you do not have Business Scheme?

:confused:
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
08-12-2008 11:40
From: Sling Trebuchet
I think that your answers are helpful.
You are saying that you believe that the use of traffic bots is contrary to the design intention of LL and that they are subversive of the system.
Despite that belief, you use traffic bots, defend their use and intend to continue to use them for you own gain.
Almost. They alter the listings - something that LL did not intend to happen. They don't change/alter/subvert the system though. LL allows them, and I'll continue to use them until either LL disallows them or there is no further use of them.

From: Sling Trebuchet
Picks were not 'screwed' as an indicator of popular choice.
Yes they were. Ever since I arrived in SL (way before the new search), Picks have been used for both places and personal. You don't use them for personal things, but it's very unusual not to see personal Picks in someone's profile (I'm not a profile junkie but I do see lot of them).

From: Sling Trebuchet
The effect of the personal friend picks is spread too thinly to have any significant effect on the ranking of the parcels encapsulated in the picks.
No it's not. It is so common that my estimate is that it is more than 50%.

From: Sling Trebuchet
Unsurprisingly, the parcels encapsulated in the picks tend to be parcels where people spend time. These could be their own parcels, friends parcels, or public parcels where they hang out. Guess what? The parcels in personal picks actually mean something in terms of where avatars like to be.
Sometimes they do, but there is no sense of popular vote in the randomness of those locations. They are just pictures of avatars wherever they happen to be at the time.

From: Sling Trebuchet
Picks started to be 'screwed' as soon as someone started to use them to game the search system.
Picks were well and truly screwed for use as popularity in the new search loooong before the new search was even thought of.

From: Sling Trebuchet
You say that "Picks camping is only a miniscule amount of the 'screwedness' of Picks."
I don't know what data you base this on.
My observations.

From: Sling Trebuchet
More and more as I travel around I see places that offer reward to people for listing the place in their picks. It's growing all the time.
If Paid Picks is not a major subversion of search now, then it's not going to be long before it becomes one.
I can't argue with that.

From: Sling Trebuchet
Paid Picks are as much a subversion of search as are traffic bots.
In meaning, yes. In quantity, I don't think so.

From: Sling Trebuchet
You admit that traffic bots are a subversion of the system and contrary to LL's intentions.
I don't believe that your refusal to recognise the subversion caused by paid picks is any more validly based that is your defence of the use of traffic bots.
It's just my view of it, that's all.


You use the word "subvert", and I've gone along with it, assuming you mean changes/alters. But you may mean "destroys", which I don't go along with one little bit. Nothing is destroyed by traffic bots and paid Picks. Something is changed, but nothing is destroyed.

People jockey for position when position matters. It's the way things are, and as long as LL accepts it and doesn't do anything to change it, and doesn't tell us that it's not allowed, people will jockey for position, like it or not. And as long as I consider it beneficial to me, I'll be a part of it.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
08-12-2008 11:48
From: Ciaran Laval
Picks have not been about popular places for a lot of people for ages. Ever since I got here I've noticed plenty of people with their friends in their picks and the idea that people enjoy hanging out at the store owned by a friend is stretching it somewhat, they do that to support their friend, not because they think the parcel is cool.

The point with picks is that they were being misused for quite some time but now because of how search works they have more value, so people pay others to list their places.

Picks are simply never going to be a fair system of popularity.


I think the thing with the friend picks is that they are not concentrated. They are spread thinly, like background noise. They are not significant for individual parcels in the larger picture.
If there are particularly popular parcels that are listed in people's picks due to people liking those parcels, then their true popularity will assist in their ranking.
That is an entirely valid reason to use picks as a factor in search ranking.


That reasoning is completely destroyed by the use of paid picks.

You say: "Picks are simply never going to be a fair system of popularity."
This is correct only because people are setting out to game the system, thereby destroying the link.
Without paid picks, the system is a good indication of popularity.
Without traffic bots and camping, traffic is a good indication of popularity.


Which of these 'screws' the picks weighting?
1. Say four friends list me as a person in their picks.
2. Say I pay 400 people to list my parcel in their picks.


You *appear* to be arguing that because Picks is not a perfect indication of popularity, then it's OK to completely destroy it as an indication of popularity in the pursuit of personal gain for the parcel owner.
_____________________
Maggie: We give our residents a lot of tools, to build, create, and manage their lands and objects. That flexibility also requires people to exercise judgment about when things should be used.
http://www.ace-exchange.com/home/story/BDVR/589
Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
08-12-2008 11:50
Exactly. Particularly when compared to wholesaling of picks to focus large numbers of IBLs back to a specific parcel.

From: Sling Trebuchet
I think the thing with the friend picks is that they are not concentrated. They are spread thinly, like background noise. They are not significant for individual parcels in the larger picture.
_____________________
From: Albert Einstein
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them.
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
08-12-2008 12:07
From: Sling Trebuchet
You *appear* to be arguing that because Picks is not a perfect indication of popularity, then it's OK to completely destroy it as an indication of popularity in the pursuit of personal gain for the parcel owner.


No I'm arguing that no solution is perfect and people can and will game whatever is put before them. Picks are being gamed more now because their significance has increased dramatically. You're not going to stop that.
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
08-12-2008 12:13
Its just harder to game picks than Traffic, thats all.

You cant simply create 20 NPIOF accounts and log them into your skybox to count their Picks like you can Traffic.
Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
08-12-2008 12:36
From: Ciaran Laval
No I'm arguing that no solution is perfect and people can and will game whatever is put before them. Picks are being gamed more now because their significance has increased dramatically. You're not going to stop that.


You are quite correct. Some people game systems as far as they can get away with regardless of the effect on value of the system for others.

However, that fact of gaming is not the core of this thread.

The debate is about the honesty of gaming the systems.
_____________________
Maggie: We give our residents a lot of tools, to build, create, and manage their lands and objects. That flexibility also requires people to exercise judgment about when things should be used.
http://www.ace-exchange.com/home/story/BDVR/589
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
08-12-2008 13:28
From: Sling Trebuchet
However, that fact of gaming is not the core of this thread.

The debate is about the honesty of gaming the systems.
That's news to me :)

It started as a list of botrunning places, and since I said that traffic != populartity, it seems to have been about that - and that wasn't far from the beginning.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
08-12-2008 13:59
It's beginning to look as though my estimate of 50%+ personal Picks was rather high. I'm checking as people come to the store, and it looks like I'll have to revise my estimate. It doesn't change anything about my views though, except the degree to which Picks were already flawed when LL started to use them for the new search.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
08-12-2008 14:08
From: Phil Deakins
It's beginning to look as though my estimate of 50%+ personal Picks was rather high. I'm checking as people come to the store, and it looks like I'll have to revise my estimate. It doesn't change anything about my views though, except the degree to which Picks were already flawed when LL started to use them for the new search.


Two wrongs don't make a right.

So they were flawed? Doesn't mean buying of Picks is not wrong.
Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
08-12-2008 14:12
From: Phil Deakins
That's news to me :)

It started as a list of botrunning places, and since I said that traffic != populartity, it seems to have been about that - and that wasn't far from the beginning.


The implication of the "list" of botrunning places was to be a blacklist/shamelist of places that used traffic bots.
I don't think that anyone disputed that *current* traffic != popularity.
Had that been the topic of debate, this thread would have faded out in a couple of pages

The debate was about the honesty/morality of using traffic bots (and paid picks) to influence search rankings. That's where the heat got generated.
_____________________
Maggie: We give our residents a lot of tools, to build, create, and manage their lands and objects. That flexibility also requires people to exercise judgment about when things should be used.
http://www.ace-exchange.com/home/story/BDVR/589
Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
08-12-2008 14:44
From: Phil Deakins
I didn't actually. I'd forgotten about that one. What I said wasn't true, but it wasn't a lie because I'd forgotten about it when I was writing the post. Also, my "Who uses exploits" questions were obviously not intended to suggest that I don't exploit things, as is clear from the rest of that post - the part that you omitted in the quote.
What utter drivel.
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Bella Posaner
Just say it how it is FFS
Join date: 8 May 2008
Posts: 615
08-12-2008 15:03
From: Colette Meiji
Well I do see Sling was also subjected to a lot of rude language by Phil in this thread.

Now as to you taking exception to the griefer comparison, I don't see the escalation. Griefer describes a pretty wide range of problem-makers, most of whom do less damage to the average business owner than a Trafficbot runner.

I would certainly consider the "Scammer" and "Cheat" labels as worse than the "Griefer" label were they applied to me. Of course I get other labels applied to me so I have a different hierarchy to contend with.

------------

I'll admit they did come down pretty hard on Bella.

Of course they probably felt that it was an awfully convenient coincidence that Phil mentions happy customers .. then lo and behold .. one shows up.

I don't think I was rude to her - but to someone predisposed against my posts anyhow it might have been seen as such.


nothing convenient about it, I have been reading this thread from the start. I posted quite early on, asking what are bots, well before Phil mentioned happy customers.

You were rude to me........I don't really care, it speaks far more volumes about you than it does me.
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
08-12-2008 15:14
From: Bella Posaner
nothing convenient about it, I have been reading this thread from the start. I posted quite early on, asking what are bots, well before Phil mentioned happy customers.

You were rude to me........I don't really care, it speaks far more volumes about you than it does me.


Ahh I was? Hmm I just went back and retrieved the post.

From: someone
From: Bella Posaner
Totally agree with Marcel and I imagine I am typical of most consumers in SL. We just want to find what we are looking for. We don’t appreciate being mislead with non relevant search material. I personally am only ever annoyed if the search material is falsified and they don’t have the product the search claims to have. . Like Marcel, I would be unlikely to return to a shop, that is deliberate deception. My objective is to find what I want in the least amount of time, without going to a million stores.

I found I was presented with a lot of options when I searched for particular items of furniture. Surely Phil isn’t the only one who uses this method of marketing?


Of course Phil isn't the only one, that is why its such a problem.

And its not Marketing.

Its gaming the traffic score by using alternate accounts so their opinion of what should be popular counts multiple times.

If I made a poll on this forum and then voted in the poll with 100 alts would anyone not consider it skewing the results?

Running trafficbots isn't any different than that. Its deciding what they say should be high on the list matters more than what other people say.


There were no personal attacks, no accusals you were lying, no suppositions you were not telling the truth.

Or me simply stating why I felt you were scammed was rudeness?

Or was disagreeing with you over whether this is Marketing rude?
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