Update

Very good point. We're all selfish by nature, so the mindset "I don't want to see that! Make a law against it" comes natural. But in most cases we simply have to suck it up. That's what tolerance is all about.

Theres also the point that Second Life has a tolerance cluase, not a free speech clause.

Thus in Second Life - things like Nazi symbols should be banned for violating the tolerance clause. They arent protected by free speech.

In the Real World, where in many countires Free Speech is protected. There is a tolerance clasue but it applies to discrimination of law and of emplyment, etc. Theres also a free speech clause that allows things like Klan Rally's and Neo Nazi marches etc.

Where I live we had a Neo Nazi march a couple years ago - the resulting altercation against counter demonstraters cost a lot of money in damages.

People in general didnt understand why the Neo-Nazis had to be allowed to march becuase of free speech protections. Nor why those who attacked them went to jail for assualt.

But thats the result of a lack of Historical/ Political education in America.

I like it when people pull out the "protected class" card to further their agenda.

Why do you have to be a jew to be legitimately offended by nazi imagery? It's not like you're a holocaust survivor. You don't have any room to be any more offended by it than me or any other gentile.

btw I personally don't find ignorance offensive...just stupid!

brenda i think we better stop here. I don't like your approach in this very serious matter. And your signature is just wrong. Words wich hurt lead to actions wich hurt. So sometimes it is the best way to just forbid the hurting words. I don't care about the thoughts, but keep them by yourself. The forbidden action is to publish any material wich calls to violence against another race, gender, a democratic institution or a named person. Isn't it still forbidden in the free US of A to burn the flag? In most european countries exist explicit laws in this sense. It is explicit forbidden to show nazi signs unless in a historical or educational context and that was clearly not the case here. In many eastern european countries the signs of the old communist regimes are also explictly forbidden. I don't know about the situation in your country, is the KKK a legal organisation, they are still allowed to burn their crosses? Sometimes you have to draw a line wich mustn't be crossed by anybody, that's what i learned out of history ...
So thanks again lveran and francesca!

Who decides who crosses what lines? That's the main principle behind freedom of speech. The KKK and Neo Nazi organizations are allowed to exist in the USA...just like religious groups and anti-white groups. It's because they have a right to have their own opinion even if it doesn't jive with the status quo. The only time it becomes a problem is when their rhetoric and actions cause harm to specific people outside of a reasonable limit.

That means a nazi guy can say "Al Sharpton's a fake" or whatever and he wouldn't be jailed...now if he said "this guy should be killed..." then THAT crosses the line.

And honestly, I think those laws exist in Europe out of guilt for WWII and the Cold War more than any protection of its' citizens.

Now as far as SL...it's not a democratic society, it's a company's product and they decided that imagery that invokes hatred and intolerance is...intolerable. LL's position on just about every social issue is they don't want to take a position so they play it safe and have rules like this...which is fine with me!

Its actually possible there ARE holocaust survivors in Second Life. Last I checked there wasnt an upper age limit for joining.

There are others whose parents and grandparents were holocuast survivors.

In addition it was their people who were targetted for extermination - and a SIZABLE portion of them were murdered. This sort of thing is going to affect the whole people for a long time.

If someone a mere 60 years ago had wiped out a large percentage of all the people in your ethnic/religeous heritage you might actually understand.

They are.



As long as they filed for a demonstration permit - or if its on their land and doesnt violate local fire codes.

Even though you now seem to want to censor my speech I'll answer your question. Yes it is legal to burn the US flag here it was never forbidden, it's done just about every day. Although our idiots in Washington are trying to change that. And yes, as an organization the KKK is allowed to exist. And at their private meetings they can burn all the crosses they want. You don't like my approach, I find yours just as disturbing. I will continue to use words to express my thoughts. You are free not to read them.

Well said, Colette. (Your last post.)

I guess I don't understand how that makes the opinion of a certain group of people more important than mine.

It doesnt make their Opinion more important than yours. But it does explain the pain and emotional response they have.

Actually I have never seen someone jump into a post so often and spew so much drivel as this guy so i disagree he takes a subject and is twisting it lol he's not about freedom of speech he's about freedom to disagree and argue and there is a difference between someone posting a picture with hitler and a swastika at the bottom that says FOR A FREE GERMANY! which is pretty much antisemetic in nature and hate displayed in a public venue and freedom to do and say what you want behind closed doors in your home.

Preaching hate no matter how much everyone says talks about freedom is an american concept actually and has led to all kinds of issues. When these people try to go to countries that dont let you preach about hate and oppressing and ethnic cleansing lol and they wont let them across the boarder people suddenly scream free speech. I see no merit to preaching about hatred to crowds of listeners or attempting to diseminate any such message in an attempt to sway people to your way of thinking so you can rid the world of certain types of people. Theer is a line and that's crossing it so displaying something in public passing out such pamphlets and attempting to call it free speech and inside the pamphlets its saying how some race or culture is somehow less then you and responsible for the poverty of the country or whatever which is what this is about and that this group of people should somehow be marginalized and their freedoms taken away and rallying people to this cause is over the top.

This disussion can go round and round and round but the fact is that preaching hatred is illegal in many countries thinking it and hatings races in the privacy of your own home is not. Whether we like it or not SL is not so private if someone can actually see these images and photograph them then obviously its not hidden.

So when people jump in and try to say oooo free speech in the face of this they are putting blinders on this and honestly its well silly. If someone is going to promote anti semetism in SL fine do it but realize that your basically putting down a group of people AGAIN for the same stupid reasons as before if you want to be antisemetic fine just dont tell me about how "okay" it is for someone to go around sl and actively tell people that they should become antisemetic and give reasons why at this point it becomes hate as well and predjudice and an attempt to oppress a group of people.

so please post all the anti semetic posters you want in your house behind locked doors but once you make it public it now becomes an issue of spreading hate.

again the fact that a photo made it into the public eye has proven this and all the posts about freedom of speech can go down the drain because its now becoming freedom to promote hatred towards a group of people which is a whole other can of worms and anyone thinking this is somehow okay should be ashamed of themselves

It's funny that non-Americans complain about our freedoms...especially when referring to something that almost all of Europe still feels guilty about.

Arguing and debating are forms of speech and expression. Sorry if your country doesn't allow that. I thought the USSR dissolved??

I"m canadian and freedom to spread hate propoganda is not allowed and has never been allowed. If you want to spread hate fine but realize that a great many places in the world even the places attached to the united states in fact dont allow it.

I"m wondering about the overall age of some of the posters who dont know this stuff because honestly its common knowledge and it has nothing to do with "guilt" it has to do with a concept that is not so widely accepted the freedom to spread hate.

Well I am 38. Yes I know many areas of the world tell their subjects how they can think and what they can say and read. But I don't live in one of those areas, if I did, I would move. I baked and froze, sweated and bled to keep my right to say or read what I want when I want, I am not going to give it up.

There is censorship lets face it.
If I am inocently wearing child like avatar and use adult animation that in my mind has no thoughts of perversion but curious by myself for laughs, not even thinking about hey I look like a kid and someone sees me I most likely will be banned because someone else in there mind sees it perverse or worse.
I have no recourse other then restriction how and what I do.
I am not entitled to do whatever I want or do whatever if it effects others regardless of what I think I should be free to do. So why should someone who is Nazi being entitle to there opinion in SL. Or even terrorist group that re-enacts beheading Avatars?
All I can do is make sure if I go somewhere with adult animations is to be careful what I do now even if its not even in context someone else might imagine the reason behind it.
I am not entitles to certain things, why should anyone else?
I find it broadly offensive when a group or person on television or even internet that they share vivid details of mistreatment, alienation or more severe things like physical or sexual violence, torture, mutilation or murder based political, racial, sexual or gender orientation or religous believes but I have utterly no control over it. The same way in SL most I can do is create things and spend time with those I value here, ignore the rest.

YOu can read whatever you like and think whatever you like and put whatever you like up in your home no one is stopping you. The minute you step out onto the curb and start screaming from the rooftops how you read the book that says group X should be removed from the earth because they carry fleas and rally people to your cause to go and hurt them and oppress them the line in the sand gets drawn. Its a nice simplistic view you have here but realize that many other people did a lot more then sweat and still do in order that others dont get wiped off the planet in many many countries due to various forms of hatred.

It happens every day and is happening at this moment as we speak to other groups and the way it happened was because a guy decided to not just read it but do something about what he read. So be free in your feeling you can read and think what you like but the moment you start to to act its a different issue. You cross the line into the public venue and are no longer just reading a book or whatever your actively participating in the spreading of hate. I Hope your just arguing for the sake of arguing but the way people so violently are opposing the removal of some things that are obviously in the public eye promoting this hate I begin to wonder because its looking like any form of good judgement has gone out of the window and you will defent tooth and nail some guys right or perceived to be superiour to another being even if it means he will abuse that person and is.

Wilhelm,

Interesting thing about your post is that you clearly explain what most people is saying here. As long as NO ACTION is taken from the people showing whatever hate group propaganda you dislike, they are not interfering with anybody else's lives.

Granted, the fact that someone is placing Nazi's posters and flags is of bad taste (to me), and I can understand the feelings of the people whose family/friends/relatives have been affected by the acts committed by such hate groups.

What most people try to say is that if you try to control the "free speech" you will never find a place where to draw the line.

X doesn't like Y; at the same time Y doesn't like Z... and so on.

Just my L$ 0.02

they can post em in their homes the minute they post it in public they are trying to send a message its not really that hard to understand


here is an example

i will say all people named don mill are "ebil' and should be cleansed from the earth including sl and make a big huge poster on the subject and post it at all the public areas. Griefer group A decides they like my message and also now hate Don Mill and come and crash your sim and bother your friends and harasse you relentlessly from now till doomsday. They come to me they say we agree with your hatred of Don Mill and would like more info and will help you spread your hate of Don Mill its only a poster and a notecard you know. So I give them all freely copyable and transferable virtual books posters notecards t shirts and whatnot and they spread the word and even maybe open a little shop up and advertise it in the classifieds. So then group B decides that this is a "worthy cause" and so joins in.

You give up and leave the game beacuse you can't do anything regardless of the fact that you put in abuse report after abuse report because they just keep signing up alts and spreading that "art" i made in the name of free speech.

They even go to help island now and recruit newbie avatars to their cause and get them involved.

Forever more your avatar is plastered across SL as "ebiL" on a billboard so then of course everyone KNOWS now that don mills is Ebil .

What was the cause of this problem? me deciding to start publicly advertising Don Mill is ebil. so yes they can think and say what they want but what has been said in previous threads is that stuff can be POSTED in public because of "free speech" even though it passases allong a negative message and will eventualy result in a group of people getting hurt they cross the line into just having the book on their shelves at home when they start saying that hey its okay that everyone can see that stuff and the guy marching up and down imitating it and spreading the message further is still an innocent free speech thing when clearly its not its become preaching free hatred which is a different thing entirely

No, because they're villains who chose to make themselves our enemies and therefore get what they deserve.



Just so long as only people who agree with you have freedom then, is that what you're saying?

Well... tbh.. there are some of those already

But again, you are taking it to the extremes. ANY extremist group that inflicts pain (in any way or form) should be stopped (in whatever legal way is possible).

Your argument could be used to prohibit any existing publication. Show me one literary piece that can not be taken to extremes. I've known a deeply religious woman that was convinced that any person that wasn't a catholic was wrong. It is not that difficult to take that into a hate argument if you push it a little.

So, on one side you are right. Public hate propaganda is not "good". But the evil part comes not from the propaganda but for the actions of individuals.

The United States most certainly does *not* have free speech in a pure sense.

Here are some examples of limitations on free speech, most from the United States but some others from around the world included.

Takes just a few seconds to see that 'free speech' is *anything* but the most obvious interpretation of the term.


Defamation

Slander

Libel

Obscenity

Lying in court

Talking out of turn during a trial

Talk that causes contempt of court

Speaking about a trial outside the court room after the judge forbids it

speaking publicly without a permit

speaking publicly outside of a Free Speech Zone

Limits on the size of public demonstrations

Foul language on regular TV

Names of companies on TV (such as in talk shows)

Names of other channels on TV (such as in talk shows)

Hate speech that is defamatory or causes incitement to riot

Noise pollution

The content of the speech is copyright infringement

Company secrets: how a product is made or company strategy

Political secrets: campaign strategies

Classified information: sensitive or secret to protect the national interest

Lies that cause a crowd to panic

Imminent lawless action, such as shouting fire in a crowded theater

Fighting words doctrine (U.S. 1942) - insulting or 'fighting words', those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace

Sedition: speech or organization that is deemed as tending toward insurrection against the established order

Treason: to talk publicly of the death of all countrymen or the overthrow of the government

Blasphemy is illegal in several Western countries. Defense of freedom of religion is cited.


...there are many, many, many more examples.

If you think of the Company as the 'government' of Second Life, in many ways they are far more tolerant of speech within their 'country' than most real governments of countries.

So who decides what's considered "hate" speech in your Vanilla Utopia? What's stopping them from (pardon the reference) "broadening" their definitions of hate speech until you can't even speak out against the government?

This is a tricky balance that has yet to be properly maintained ANYWHERE...except Canada I guess.

You also might want to check yourself with your implications on who's spreading hate here. One thing the US understands that other countries don't is the fact that some things are protected FROM the majority in order to PROTECT the majority. Refer back to my first paragraph in this post for more info.

...and yet we don't have the following...



Also, there are a lot of cases and bi-laws that make it difficult to just call one act "treason" or another "slander". Certain specific conditions have to be met before someone can be tried in the US.

Otherwise the entire US is a free speech zone. You can speak publicly all you want. As far as I know you only need a permit to have a demonstration. You don't need to register for the size of it as there is no way to pre-determine who will show up!

In most cases company secrets is more of a company policy thing although that is usually subject to debate depending on the actual situation.

Blasphemy is accepted. We have a "separation of chuch and state" thing going on that makes it so the state can't favor one belief over another. The courts do a good job on that one in general from what I've seen.

I worry about people that find the above mentioned items to be acceptable in their countries.



I couldn't agree more!

You mean " HURTING SOMEONES FEELINGS" isnt illegal?????? Then what exactly is everybody talking about?