Permission debate o.0

Hi everyone!

I know that this has been mentioned, talked about, fought over etc etc etc time after time after time... But...... here goes.

From what i can see, most skin makers in SL make skins and sell them as No Transfer.

I understand the reason to this, One reason being that you can copy the skin, and fit each skin into certain outfits, and what have you.

But through my time here, i have seen praises and complaints on the permissions of the skins. Half out there love the fact that they can copy their skin over and over again, and the other half would rather have just 1 copy that was transferable, for whatever reason (maybe incase they dont like the skin and would like to get some money back)

Either way, i want to hear from the shoppers, and even the store owners about what you would prefer the permissions be on skins?

Hopefully this doesnt turn into a permission war... LOL.

I'm just curious to know what the community prefers, if worse comes to worse, ill just sell one skin both ways (one as copy/no trans, one as no copy/trans)

I always thought it was silly just to have "no transfer" for the hell of it. I understand situations like the skin one you mentioned where having copy and transfer would essentially make it a freebie and how some items are better used with copy enabled (such as the mech suits I make), but there are plenty of guns and other stuff that are no copy, transfer or modify and are now collecting dust in my inventory because I'm too cheap to just delete them!

You can resell most things in RL, why not SL?

i wish hair and skins were all mod/tran

i have close to 50 skin ive collected over a year and somei just dont wear anymore that i wish i could give to others the only reason i wish they were mod is because i almost never find skins with nailpolish i like and my fav skin has no gloves or any other add on to give me the nails i want

on hair i have well over 200 iveput into boxes that i dont wear anymore that id love to give away rather then it sitting there taking up box space

all of them bein copy messes me up when i transfer them from boxes to inventory and here and there when i organize i end up with to many copies of the same items

re: no tran items

cuz you are not buying the item, but rather a license to use the item.
the creator doesnt want you to be able to give his/her work to others.

The thing is, there is no one answer for everyone. That's what makes it good that creators use different permissions. Many will change the perms to what you need if you IM them.

with all the asset server mess ups I dont buy stuff that is transfer and no copy and no modify because if i dont get the products or it goes poof I can't chat the owner and ask for another one. I also make the permissions on items this way.

I have my stuff copy or modify copy depending on the item. I have seen people attempt to purchase an item 20 times (dont ask me why they just do it). I happens at least once a day. They usually end up with many many copies because the problem rights itself in most cases. If they end up with no copy of it they will get a copy from me. This makes it possible for me to refund money to those who accidentally make multiple purchases. One guy did it and I was actually there when he did this and it appeared to be some form of lag on his end or something. The result was he managed to purchased 2 copies of an item instead of one.

In a "perfect second life" I would make my some items tranfer only if I could rely on stability, but I can't so I dont..

I would never buy a no copy , transfer car or any expensive item because I dont want to loose it. I have lost enough items that were no copy/transfer to decide as both someone who makes stuff and a consumer that its preferable for many reasons to just ignore the transfer button totally and put up a gift card system or something..

ps. with relation to skins I had skin that was copy no transfer and was glad of it as something happened to the copy of the one I was wearing it got all distorted or something. I had spent a lot of lindens on the skin and if it had been no copy would have been walking around looking like I had melted and had to go buy another skin or wear a freebie one or something. So if its no copy and transfer I wont buy it..

gift cards are great in some instances

but in the instance where i have litteraly hundreds of items that i could pass out to new people that would greatly help them it just sort of sucks that i cant

Thats what i was thinking of doing, just allowing people to i.m me if they want different permissions. Thats what we do on most of the items that we create. Good idea, And to the first two posters, i understand exactly what you mean.

When i first came into game, all i did was buy hair and skins. Most of the skins sit in my inventory because i loved the demo, hated the skin once i bought it. The hair, i still use mostly all the time, but i would love to give gifts and things to friends coming into the game and such.

And to erm.. Poopmaster.. I understand you are buying a license to use the item. But in the RL world you can buy a sofa and then sell it, destroy it, or do whatever you would like with it, because that one sofa is now yours. Which, to some extent, i feel that it should be that way in SL as well. On certain items, and with certain permissions.

Thank you all for your responses

My opinion as a consumer: I refuse to purchase items that I know are no-copy. Period. That attitude will change when and if SL becomes more stable with regard to inventory, and not until then.

As a maker of stuff, I see no reason whatsoever that people can't have any number of copies of anything I make, but then again I don't make huge castles or anything else that might cause me to rethink that idea. I never sell things mod, though, because I've just seen far too many problems with mod items. Transfer/No-Copy is fine for gifts or custom orders, but I generally choose Copy over Transfer, and NEVER both together.

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That's probably a good idea.

Because you can't just pull things out of thin air in RL.

I'm in the no trans camp, simply because that's how I prefer it. I'm not saying one way is better than the other, just that I prefer no trans as it's easier to change outfits with it.

The place where this analogy breaks down is the copy ability. In RL you can't magically make 1000 copies of your sofa for free to open your own sofa store. That's what content creators have to protect against. Your SL sofa is more analogous to a RL copyrighted picture of a sofa. You can not legally make a photocopy of it, and give the copy or the original to someone else.

Ack, I would NEVER buy no copy hair. I've edited virtually every hair I own to some extent, occasionally with unfortunate results...the fact that I can just rez a fresh copy if I screw it up makes the whole process much more fun and less worrisome. I wouldn't mind transferable skins, though.

For me, I try to only purchase copy/no trans items - if I am getting a gift for someone, I check SLX, or contact the merchant directly.

I like the flexiblity of setting of folders of looks and styles - and I like having a backup copy when SL decides to delete stuff.

More importantly, on items that are mod, the copy is important so that I can have a back, and have multiple styles. This includes skins, since I do not like being limited to 'human' normal colors - give me blues, violets, greens, reds, and all shades inbetween.

The merchants I buy the most from tend to have either their items in both formats, or gift cards, or are on SLX. That why they cover both sides of the fence.

Can say, the few merchants that sell no copy items, and have the large signs up in their shop that says they are not responsible for SL inventory loss, do not ask for replacements, I refuse to buy from period. While if they were actually losing a resource by replacing a missing item I wouldn't mind, they have infinit copies of their items, and it is simply good customer service to help fill the gaps in LL's inventory system.

I will never again buy any skins that are no transfer. What skin creators are selling IS NOT a software licence for use, its not software OR intellectual property, it's a set of 3 textures... exactly like clothing. I would prefer creators offer a version next to their copy/notrans versions that is nocopy/trans. That way, those of us who change our avitars shape aren't stuck with keeping high priced, but useless inventory litter if the skin no longer suits our shape. Why do I feel like its the greed talking when they force me to pay full fee AGAIN (not that i would) to use something I've already payed for on an ALT that i own? It's still me.. u know, the one that payed in the first place. I payed stoopid IP usage fees to Microsoft, yet i can put THAT on another unit if i choose to upgrade... what makes a set of 3 textures so damn special?

What bums me out and made me quit selling or even trading textures except to my closest friends is when it comes to textures there no protection.
I can literally take hours and days hand drawing, texturing and designing or designing collage like texture and anyone can take it and sell it.
If I want to sell it I have no controll over how someone going to use it or even selll it.
You can't sell textures or even use them I have discovered if there is certain permissions on it.
As far as buying no copy, no mod products I understand some products and owners need to do that for personal protection of earning next dollar.
Yet same time there was this one place I use to hang, camp and shop.
I asked several times for specific skins if they sale it to me no transfer but with mod/copy priveledges they refused so I quit shopping there. Because I didn't shop there I felt uncomfortable also hanging out there.
The item has to be pretty special for me to buy no copy and because of the allocation server issues I have actually quit shopping all together.

Stupid question maybe:

I'd like to make my products transferrable, but no-copy. But I don't seem to be able to do that. The checkbox 'resell/give away' can only be checked if also copy is enabled. If copy is disabled, the resell/give away-checkbox is greyed out. Am I missing something here?

there are a few choices
mod/copy/transfer
mod/copy/no transfer
mod/transfer/no copy
and i think copy/transfer/no mod but not positive on that one

I really hope you choose to do both. As you can see, there is no real agreement on this issue, but most people strongly prefer one or the other. When sellers choose one option over the other, they essentially turn away half their potential customers. It's such a small additional investment in time to offer both options, I just can't understand why we don't see this more often.

Just for the record, I vote for copy/no-transfer. Mod permissions are also nice anytime that wouldn't give away your product (like a script).

It is greyed out, but it IS ALSO checked. It is greyed out and can only be UNchecked if copy is enabled. Those permisions are exactly what you want for no copy and transferrable.

well its like this in my opinion.

If the item doesnt need modified - it can be transfer .. so no Mod / No Copy / trans.
Unless you want it to be part of an outfit ... then No Mod / Copy / No Trans/

If you whatever you sell be modified .. then you shoudl have it be copy - so they dont BREAK IT.

Always assume your customers will make mistakes. Give them a backup even incase they forget to make a copy first.

SO for mod items - Mod / copy / no trans

I sell my items as copy and no transfer as I assume that people who buy furniture will want more than one chair, sofa etc, plus when an item not received or goes missing I can just send them another. I also get requests to make personal modifications, I can do this by just using another copy and not need to go and do it on the original purchased.

I do get a few who buy more than one of an item for whatever reason, if I spot it, I refund for the extra purchase(s).

While skins are pretty easy to make one of each, furniture it wouldn't be quite so viable. If anyone wants permissions changed, then would do it on an individual basis

Replacement policy is a silly reason to make something C/NT. If you're that convinced that your customers are all thieves and liars that you don't trust someone who said they bought a copy and lost it, please make that perfectly clear in your store and people can save themselves the trouble of buying from you in the first place. Replacing something that someone lost costs you *nothing*.

One time when I really didn't like the fit of a prim skirt and couldn't fit it right no matter what, I asked the creator if she'd had anyone ask about the same and if she had any suggestions on making a better fit. The dress was no transfer, but she offered a refund all the same, I didn't take it because it wasn't what I'd ask, nor was it fair, but she offered.

Two different stores issued a refund on an transfer outfit I bought when I really wasn't happy with it and when I asked if they didn't want it back I just got a "just delete the copy you have".

I've gotten extra copies of a one particular NC/T item because I'd like it more than once. Or an extra C/NT version of a NC/T prim skirt because I wasn't sure I could adjust it proper. Some just gave free copies of one particular item in an outfit when I asked if I could buy it separately.

The list just goes on and on. In some cases I'd spent tons there before, in other cases it was the very first purchase of something that wasn't even really that expensive. Those stores are the ones I remember and will recommend to anyone, not because the owners are gullible and you can cheat, but because they're actual friendly and understanding and help out without treating you like a thief.

Then you have the stores where everything is C/NT and I'll look around and if there are several things I want, I'll leave a polite IM asking if it was possible to get the list of things I like as transfer instead and log back on to a short "If you don't like the permissions, go somewhere else". It should be obvious they don't get a single sale ever for me, and everyone I know that cares about permissions will hear about it.

If the reply is "Sorry, I just don't do that" it's perfectly fine obviously. Just because anyone asks doesn't mean they have to, just as long as they're polite to a simple polite question.

Whether you make things C/NT or NC/T probably depends on what the majority of your customers prefer, but if the only reason to go with C/NT is because of your own paranoia and you communicate that on to your customers, you're not on the right approach and those people will find better service elsewhere.
If someone asks you for different permissions than the one you're selling, understand that the person asking will probably have strong feelings about it and you don't have to honour the request, but at least be civil about it (assuming the question was phrased civilly of course).

On mod vs no mod: an open source viewer can copy anything but scripts, so selling something as no mod doesn't make you any safer, it just annoys your customers.

AngelEyes, please do both.

I've been very grateful for the copy/no trans where I've made multiple outfits. Also, where modified for a certain shape, it's good to have the original for backup.

As Dana points out, amassing a load of expensive skins or other items which you know you no longer want is so infuriating that you can't even give them away.

The reason for not having copy/trans has been clearly explained.

The problem is for the buyer knowing at the time of purchase - do I want the safety of backups OR the freedom to give/sell?

P.S. what's happened to bold and italic??? no buttons here!

Hands up, could we do with a 'Hall of Fame' Sticky thread? Would it be useful for newbies? Just a thought.

I discovered an article of clothing that's too big. It looks like a prim but it's not modifiable or editable. Grrr!