Virtual BBB?

Maybe something like this already exists, and if so...please point me to it. But, since the forums don't allow us to name names - how about creating a virtual version of the Better Business Bureau for SL? A place where you COULD submit reports about dishonest/shoddy merchants, irresponsible landlords, or post griefer alerts - at least IMHO, would be a fantastic resource.
Simply make the postings the legal responsibility of the poster...not the host...and let people know there IS a central place where they could report the cockroaches that make SL so UNenjoyable, at times.

I don't think just a site with names and complaints would keep a good reputation for very long. It misses the voice or side of the story from the accused and it wouldn't be realistic for store owners to spend an inordinate amount of time countering every accussation.

Mediation or dispute resolution might work though, as long as the person/people running the site are widely considered to be trustworthy.

"Non-delivery of product, the seller refused to work with us" or "Non-delivery of product, the seller worked with us, but refuses to replace 'no copy' items citing it's SL's fault" vs a whole lot of profanity and unsubstantiated claims/accusations.

We don't really need to know what exactly took place, just how someone handles trouble cases and base an opinion on that. That way noone can pick on insignificant details and the less drama the better and more useful .

How many string of Bs can be added to this blacklist/greifer concept to make it look legit?

Several have tried this. I remember 6 months ago, getting one of these was a popular notion, but I knew it would be a waste of time. SL is too much a wild west, and LL will refuse ANY attempts to conform it to law, cause if SL residents can be held accountable for their business practices, what about LL?

SL BBB's come and go, because there is no regulatory body that can punish the scam artists and ethically-challenged business people. LL will never permit accountablity, of any variety unless they face RL legal sanction if they don't.

If I don't like you for some reason, whats to keep me from posting a notice saying,

"Archer Braun ripped be off and provides horrible customer service"?

And what could you do about it?

To run an organization like this in a credible manner would require major amounts of staff time $$$$ to follow up, investigate and verify claims. Other wise the "service" just be comes a slander board, a place for griefers to grief.

Oh, I agree completely. And I also think it's LL that ought to be providing the resources for it. But, I also feel it's rapidly becoming a necessity.

I totally agree, that why I became a member of the SLBB. At least when they post a company/organisation or personal name on the 'list' it's because they have either done something wrong, or will not be addressed/answerable to anyone. All claims are investigated before any posts are made.
A website with unfounded slander, is exactly that and holds no more creedance than mud slinging.
We made a claim against a particular company, who will remain nameless, that they contracted us to do custom work for them, but then refused to pay us once completed. The SLBB asked them if they wished to defend their claim, which they refused to do. Whilst we did not get our money from them, they did get a legitimate posting and therfore a warning to anyone else considering doing work for them. That's life sometimes, but it's better than letting companies like that continue to do business in that 'wild west' manner.

Complainers should only complain, once they have made a commitment to support and help develop a system that goes someways towards making SL a better place to do business, not simply sit of the fence and ridicule those that do something about it.

If SLBB's reputation was not marred with claims of harassment and posting false claims on their website then more business people would respond knowing that the process is fair and ligitimate. But that has not been the case with this group. I responded in good faith to this group and then had to waste weeks getting them to admit the claim was unfounded, that they did not investigate and that they edited my comments on their website. They told me even though they admit the claim was never valid - it would not be removed from their website. I kept rallying for justice (was told if I contacted anyone in that group I would be abuse reported) and now since they are on their blacklist crusade the false claim against me is removed. A waste of time and energy.


I do not agree that the fear of being added to a blacklist should be the motivating factor in a business community to do good business. Mediation, training, counseling and good communication skills are more effective than harassment.

"Second Life" bureau, huh? Ah... no. They aren't official, and that's a deceptive thing to call yourself when you aren't.

Ive been around a while and seen a few things on the grid - there are some VERY questionable people and their alts taking part in these groups, using them as cover already.

Just have a look at some of the names listed. Most of you are too new, and have no idea who you have just affiliated yourself with on these business lists.

I've got my own hard-earned reputation built over the years, thank you, and I don't need to pay someone $L 1000 or whatever to reaffirm it. Anyone trashing my well-established rep on their website is going to look like a crook, not me.

Crime is bad. Organised crime is worse. Just give this thing a chance, and it will be gamed harder than the reputation system (now abolished) or the traffic system.

I'll answer to a real governing body (Linden Research, Inc., or the United States Government) but I won't answer to any self-styled resident policing group.

Should any of you?

Too bad you can't use something like SquareTrade like you can on Ebay

SquareTrade only protects law abiding people from other law abiding people.

As for the rest...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3078461/

http://www.infopackets.com/channels/en/windows/gazette/2005/20050614_alert_ebay_and_squaretrade_scam_part_2.htm

http://reviews.ebay.com/Squaretrade-Warrantech-Auto-Warranty-WARNING-SCAM_W0QQugidZ10000000001424643?ssPageName=BUYGD:CAT:-1:LISTINGS:1

http://www.lockergnome.com/nexus/windows/2006/03/10/alert-ebay-and-squaretrade-scam-part-4/

http://www.videomaker.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3321

http://reviews.ebay.com/EBAY-SQUARE-TRADE-MOTORCYCLE-SCAM_W0QQugidZ10000000001909566

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?threadID=200082658&start=200

... many more out there.

Well after reading this transcript of Chadrick Linden's office hours, it appears the Lindens are prepared to make SLBBB rather official in nature:

http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2007/07/your-ideals-are.html#more

There's also never been any way to stop corrupt individuals Within these BBB's from working their own Agendas. In the end they just turn into an elaborate (Or not so elaborate) Protection/Extortion Racket.
That's because there's No one Watching the Watchers.

Angel.

I'd disagree - in fact, he's pretty clear that there *won't* be any 'official' group, ever.

He would like resident run arbitration services to exist - why not?

But it would be perfectly clear that they are merely other residents. No official capacity whatsoever.

He says over and over again that the Company should *not* be in a position to adjudicate. Which rules out residents acting as Company representatives, too. He's got the right idea, by the way.

* * * * *

Incidentally, I think arbitration services could be a very good thing, if both parties agree.

- But *should* you trust a representative who is paid by opposing parties to give you a fair shake?

- And *should* a reputable arbitration service smear losers on its website?

One needs to decide if one is the police, a lawyer-for-hire, or the county court and records.

Being all at once is an immediate and direct conflict of interest. Elevate such groups at your own peril.

I guess I get tired of people posting about stuff like this but here I will post with my migraine and hope i make sense

1) as in real life slbb like the BBB type idea has no "real power" they send notices to the company on behalf of the buyer and its hoped that the company responds in some way. If they do not they get recorded as having not responded. The workings of the slbb are very much similar to the BBB which in all honesty is just a merchants guild.

2) they actualy investigate claims so its not a bunch of "b.s"

3) everything is voluntary but realize that this was put together mediation/arbitration not for the guys who might be scamming but for the guy who might have been scammed to have a place to go to and ask for help in resolving a situation. If the business in questions doesn't want to respond they dont have to so they end up as not having responded to a complaint big deal happens all the time in the rest of the world just like the BBB.

4) Linden labs says we have to regulate ourselves. Places like SLBB are for people who hate the wild west. Join or not (actually joining isn't needed in order to get help from them etc) I just wanted to lend support to what I felt was a sorely needed service and so I am.


I want to do things the right way not everyone does or even cares about "the right way" I"m hoping slbb is a place where people do things "the right way" meaning ethics and service and good products.

In any event for many its an idea worth supporting and the fact they dont just slap people onto a black list is one of the good things about it. They actually try not to do this and look into matters objectively being a third party and technically univolved. Just like the BBB which has huge warnings of ongoing scams called "consumer altert" that's what it is a service that warns people of the pitfalls in known situations and tries to help people who ask for help and a place where I can look for scripters who wont rip me off

added for entertainment value really and to show just how much "influence" the BBB has over a certain company and their "role" which is remarkably similar to the SLBB

Honestly I have no idea why people want to demonize so many things


click I dare ya!

http://www.goldengatebbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=57373





happy SL'ing

It is clear that LL do not want the role of arbitrators within SL, they are actively seeking organisations to 'self govern' day to day disputes. That is not to say, they will hand out hangmans nooses to anyone who holds up their hand. They will investigate the background and legitimacy of any organisation that claims they have the right talent to carryout self governing activities. However they can't stop anyone from openning up a 'corner shop' and professing to be one of these organisations.
That is true in RL and SL. We all know there are corrupt laywers and governing bodies supporting those within.

I did NOT join the SLBB to 'buy' my companies a sheild. I joinned for several reasons. Primarily to be able to assist in the future and shaping of the SLBB, of which I am now pro-active. If I see anything which leads me to believe that there is individuals/companies and or organisations using the SLBB as some form of 'get out of jail free' card, then I bring this to the attention of the founder. The responses and actions of which, will decide my future with the SLBB.

Another reason I joinned the SLBB, is because I firmly believe that just because I run several business's, doesn't mean I can assume I am always right. It is far to easy to adopt tunnel vision in business whilst looking soley from a singular perspective. I use the SLBB to pose actual senerios, seeking a 3rd perspective on a business situation, before I take action. For the most part, those actions, based on a third parties perspective, can lead me to make a decision that prevents potential conflict, rather than assuming I am always right. Using this method can prevent the 'blame culture' which thwarts seeking agreements/settlements, and producing sound business judgement. I do not see this as a weakness, nor a slight on my abilities, just recognition that I am not always right!

I also utilise the SLBB to gain insight to other business practices and attend the many seninars held. I wasn't born a business man, I used my character as a foundation to learn and develop disciplines from the many resouces at my disposal. I would like to believe, whilst we are very precise in our business activities and demand a high degree of honesty and professionalism from our members, we can also allow ourselves to see more than one perspective in a situation.

It is human nature, that when someone is attacking you in some way, you would seek the help and protection of an authorative body (police, law courts etc), but should you be on the wrongside of that Authority, you would slake it.

A community such as SL, should be actively seeking its own form of internal policing. Many will see this as a 'protection racket' senerio, others will see this as creating community rules/laws, others will see a community of like minded business people and others a mixture of all. To make SL a 'better' place, we all have to strive to create/form/develop organisations to acheive this. If you see these organisations as not being what you want from them, join and become proactive and at least try and offer some form of guidance. The easiest stance will be to stand on the sidelines and criticize those that are trying to do something. Or wait until your feel it is 'safe' for you to join once they have achieved a standard that suits you.

After the Wild, wild west there were corrupt city officials that abused their percieved power and ganged-up on the un-sophisticated community members. That is where SLBB is now. Editing responses to complaints, refusing to allow rebuttals to complaints and posting conlusions to complaints without conduting a investigation or mediation.
With 'help' like this made - I would rather stay out west.


See SLBB behavior above.


Not true. People pay $1,000L to stay off the blacklist. This group even went so far as to blow up several pages of a negative article in the Herald about a SL business and display it as large as they could on they walls of the lobby of their corporate offices in SL. Spite and harassment.

That's the thing. I already see things like profiles stating "Linden Lab approved developer" because they put their name down for that list that anyone can get on. OK for most, probably, but one I knew from experience as an offensive, rude, obnoxious moron... harvesting that reflected glory and perceived approval to gain the trust of potential customers.

If a Linden says "I think some kind of resident run arbitration is a good idea", that's one thing. If they're, perhaps carelessly, referencing specific groups or services, that's potentially an opportunity for people to grab at an undeserved/unproven "approval" from the Great Gods of Linden. The flipside to that, of course, is that anyone else who isn't name-checked, is at a huge disadvantage, even if the services they offer may be preferable.

I make no judgment on SLBBB, excepting that using SL in your brand, just like the SLPDs, calling yourself "the" Second Life Whatever is misleading and inappropriate. I am not particularly interested in dealing with them, though.

SL is used in

SLExchange - I hear no complaints that its misleading
SlBoutique - I hear no complaints that its misleading
SlSmart - I hear no complaints about its misleading

most of these places sell lindens and take your lindens and sometimes treat people like crap and STILL i hear no complaints about the SL being misleading

forums with sl

SLUniverse.com


Banning things that actually make blackslists and about 50% if not more of the population absolutely abhore as a result of problems that pop up with the service from time to time
SLBanlink.com

This is just a short list and none of these are supported in any way shape or form by second life yet for some reason when it comes to slbb (not 3 b's just 2) you have a comment to make about it which i have repeatedly seen. If and when secondlife decides it wants to use the SL for themselves and tells each and every group, business forum etc to remove the sl it will be used by many people

I another thing i can't understand is why the fuss over one single SL again if your going after one for being "misleading" please go after them all because they are just as misleading. SLexchange gets posts on a daily basis ffrom players who think they are in some way affiliated with second life for support and every day someon working for slexchange has to tell them they are in NO way affiliated with second life. So I guess they need to remove their SL as well along with the 100 or so other groups and businesses that use it.

Again something else that makes no sense about this


I will say though and not really pointing at you just dont want to start another post. People do LOVE complaining. I watch it daily BUT some of us dont just complain we attempt to do something about it I'm one of the latter as complaining is a waste of time and energy since no one listens to the complaints maybe they might mock me for them or even ban me for them but nothing productive will ever come of just posting complaints about anything (and i mean literally anything) on this forum or any other forum. Action is much better and speaks louder then words. Anyone who dislikes the theft and scamming and cheating and complains about it and does nothing I really dont have much respsect for. I do however have a lot of respect for people who will put their reputations on the line and do something about it or die trying this i respect not the complainers. Sorry to be blunt but if less people complained and more people took action then we would not be in this mess. Second life is in the mess it is because many players just like to complain about things and not take any action not because of Linden Labs who if they do try to take action the same people complain. IN fact no one can actually do anything right. This much I have learned long ago. So it only goes to follow that anyone trying to do anything (even if i do hate some of the services out there ) have my respect for trying to do something positive and achieve a goal. They are the DO'ERS of sl and I respect them for that.

Point taken, perhaps instead of saying official I should have said endorsed. I agree people should have recourse against businesses that deal unfairly. I also agree with your reservations.

Quite okay, I'm not one for poking people on forums, I just had a different view.

* * * * *

Wilhelm brings up some good points.

Yes, all unofficial "SL" this or that is misleading, all of it.

The point about SLExchange having to constantly reaffirm that it *isn't* official really drives the point home.

There were many, many debates about the "SL's" back in the day, some bordering on incendiary. As for BanLink, I especially am long on record about what I think of that, as are many others, even though I would call its creator a friend.

* * * * *

Regarding 'joining it to make it better'...

1) Real scammers just roll another alt - shaming throwaway businesses or alts is an utter waste of time.

2) Beyond that, it's "he said/she said" - there's little evidence or proof to be had on the grid. Chatlogs? Screen captures? Testimony from several anonymous people?

How professional is it to even try to 'mediate' under such circumstance?

"Gee, that chatlog looked convincing, and so did that screenshot... so did Scammer McFly's account of the whole incident as it unfolded..."

Something to think about.

* * * * *

The resident answer here is that there are *no* official resident-created police groups, mediators, bureaus, or anything.

I have to agree totally with the strong comment ' Respect those that are Doers', those that are not, sit about complaining.. make a difference, club together and make it happen, if you want to sit on the sidelines and wait until something comes along that 'suits' you.. then so be it... but for petes sake, stop blaming everying wrong in SL to those who are trying to do something about it!

Of course there are those out there that only partake in these organisations with a fixed agenda.. and those that would use/abuse the system.. but it must start somewhere.. call an organisation whatever you like, but stop the bitching and help make a start... then.. we can collectively weed out those people with fixed agendas... for the moment, we have very little and SL will go down the pan unless those with a will to make change get off their butts and make it happen.

This is not about waiting.. waiting.. waiting, for LL to fix some code.. none of us have to wait at all. If THE only accountability for those that scam us is to have their names in lights on a website, then unless you have better suggestions, then so be it. Nothing is perfect, but whats here now is by far less than acceptable.

BTW, Mediators can only deal with the information that is supplied.. that is the same for any form of accountability, if someone chooses to hide the truth, how can anyone expect to make any form of judgement? You should always keep good records, same as good business does in RL. In a lot of countries, they removed the Death Penalty, simply because no system is perfect and someone gets a judgment against them, which in hindsight was incorrect. So what would you suggest, we remove all laws on that single basis? NO, we strive to make the system as good as it gets.

Yup, I'm not too keen on the other things using "SLxxx" either, but you know, neither SLEX, SLB, nor SLUniverse position themselves as organizations of any kind of authority or officaldom, which I imagine would be an expectation of a "Better Business Bureau".

On the subject of copying the identity of a real organization, I have to wonder if the diligence and effort required to constantly remind people that there is no connection, endorsement or affiliation with the real BBB is so great, that it would maybe have been better to avoid that confusion in the first place by not copying their brand.

On a slightly philosophical note, I am of the opinion that the people who join groups to make a difference in the very laudable way you describe have the best intentions when they start but they are by inference the ones with the strongest feelings and the greatest missionary zeal, and not representative of the general 'public' they represent; this is true of all organizations; and ultimately there is a tendency for their high ideals to be corrupted and twisted by the machinations of an organized group which requires compromise, making the best of a bad situation, cutting your cloth according to your purse, and choosing the lesser of two evils... nearly always not what they joined up to do. That is not a judgement, that's life.

I would prefer to see education of the population, warnings about dangerous situations, risks, accounts of previous experiences, and how to deal with them, rather than lists of names or even, in the worst case scenario, witch hunts. I know that people have the best intentions but we know where that paved road leads...

Education is my preference, Knowledge is Power.

Imogen