FBI 'probes Second Life gambling'

Commerce in the US isnt illegal -

Yet

Coke Machines usually give you the diet coke you pay for. Sometimes tho ..

AM a lawyer, but this is not my field of experise. For what its worth [nothing, absolutely nothing] here's my take on this. I think everyone is worried over nothing. First, I think LL has covered themselves pretty well and shielded themselves from liability, which is a good thing. Its good for LL and good for the rest of us. Some individual casino operators, who residi in the US might have some problems. The question is how much? I know very little about the gambling industry in SL. I dont gamble in RL and I don't gamble in SL. So far, I have visited one casino and that was just because there was a live music performance I wanted to hear going on. My overall impression that few of these places take in enough money to justify any major criminal investigation. I could be wrong on that, but who knows?

I would think that after looking into it, the FBI or the IRS or whoever would decide they have bigger fish to fry. Its possible they may go after one or two just to make examples of them but basically I think this would be serious overkill.

I am totally ambivilent about the gambling thing. I don't indulge and I have heard anecdotally that the casinos can be at least a low grade annoyance, especially if located near your home or business. I don't care one way or another what happens to gambling here. If it were eliminated, it might improve the quality of life for many of us here but I am not advocating that. I don't see this gambling issue either endangering LL or effecting the quality of life of the average resident. That's my 2 L$ worth!

Actually there are big money gambling operations in SL. Look up "high stakes poker" and go to one of them just to check it out. You will find people gambling with MILLIONS of L$. I was at a poker room a few weeks ago and the average pot per hand was a good 50kL$. Each hand took about 5 mins to play. That's a good 600,000L$ being gambled with on just one table per hour (or about $2,250USD). That is not small money, heh. Not to mention the poker rooms have very advanced “HUDS” or Heads Up Displays, which make it feel just like you are gambling on such sites as Party Poker, etc.

If the FBI, etc. finds something illegal going on, and especially if what is going on is getting lots of media attention, I'm sure they won't simply turn their heads the other way. I give it a month or two before the all dreaded TOS line is added to ban gambling in SL.

If LL makes gambling bannable, you can 'bet' that most will shut down their operations. The risk would be WAY too high to simply hope that no one notices it and if your operation was so hidden that no one found it, what would be the point of having it in the first place as you'd have no gamblers. I'm pretty sure that if LL banned gambling, gambling operations would shut down and any that didn't would get AR'd and then banned. That would be silly of them.

Interesting point, Pan Fan. I wasn't aware the gambling turnover in L$ was that big, since I have no interest in it and don't participate. Even with your figures, it MAY still be too small for the US govt to spend resources investigating, especially since it is reasonable to assume only a fraction of the participants would be US residents. It may be alarge fraction, but nowhere near the total amount of participants.

I am NOT advocating a ban of gambling. However, I do not see gambling being eliminated as adversely impacting the quality of life of most residents.

An oversimplified solution, not seriously thought out: All transactions involving Lindens stay in game, unless you cash them out and render to Caeasar the appropriate taxes at that time. feel free to denounce , decry, defame or deconstruct this idea at your leisure.

Your idea would probably work for the majority of people, Brenda, if there was a threshold reporting amount....say $5,000 USD and only for US residents. I personally would have no problem with it. I suspect others would though.

What if real life gamblers simply keep their casinos private, barring everyone else on second life? How would anyone even know what was going on behind closed doors?

It isn't necessarily a ban on gambling that will have the adverse effect. It is setting precedents that will ultimatly start limiting the "Your World, Your Imagination" aspects of SL. Some government somewhere is going to have a problem with something that exists in RL that can be simulated in SL. Where is the line drawn?

Actually, I think that this is going to happen rather sooner than later.

There is a number of governments, most notably in the Middle and Far East, who believe in restricting their citizens' access to the Internet only to sites they approve of; viz Google who are restricting their search universe for users in China and Germany due to local regulations.

So I expect that a trend towards a certain amount of -- to use a very ugly word -- censorship is only a matter of time also in SL.

If, when and how? We will see. Do we like it? I don't think so. Does it matter whether we like it or not? Definitely not.

The line would be the International borders of the US. LL is a US company and exists in the US. Foreign govts. would be able to have very little, if any, regulatory effect on SL other than restricting their resident's access to it. China, Burma, Indonesia and the mid east governments can pound sand as far as I am concerned. Note: that comment was directed at those governments not the citizens.

For example, I am NOT about going to start wearing a Bhurka, traveling only with a man in attendance and give up my rights to own property....period. I am not terribly concerend about that happening either.

Actually, as has been pointed out piecemeal in previous posts, the major problem on the Horizon for the system is not the gambling per se but the alternate monetary system that Linden has set up. Why?
One word: Taxes - why do you think they have that saying about death and taxes.
If the US (or any government for that matter) wakes up to that fact that Linden is running monetary transactions without them having the option to tax those transactions there will be hell to pay. I really feel that the "Gambling" issue is a sideline for the FBI and eventually the secret service ( they are responsible for the US money supply after all) to do some rummaging around and build a case against what amounts to a barter economy.
cheers

Whilst a Bhurka may be looking very nice on you *just kidding*, I don't think that it'll come to that.

It rather works from the other side: Companies who want to do business in, say, China (having access to gazillions of potential customers) willingly play along with Chinese rules. Again Google is a good example: also a US corporation.

It will be very interesting to watch for any self-regulating activities by our gracious hosts, along with SL's international expansion.

I think it's going to be impossible to hold Linden Lab liable.... I mean, if they are held liable, they're gonna have 5 million+ people ready to sign a petition, right?

... or is it 200,000?

Either way, 100% of the SL community all over the world would not agree to the concept that SL was made to harbor illegal gambling. We all know what SL is about.

....Lets say I want to make a bet with a friend, and we converse about it over the phone and agree to the bet. ... The phone company isn't going to be held liable.

We might as well have the US Mint held accountable since they are printing the means in which we use to gamble.

purrfectly put...the politicans want to tax sl and all the transactions...and they will in time they are the ones that even in the US make and enforce the laws.

Hydra ya made a very good point there

Ricky,

Point well taken. However, Google CHOSE to go along with China's mandates as a business decision, albeit one lacking...testicularity to put it mildly.

LL can CHOOSE to go along with China's or any other country's mandates other than where they are headquartered or have a RL physical presence.

LOL, I don't think I wouldlook good in a Bhurka. I would probably look like a walking beehive.

The news story on CNN says only a handfull of people make 1500 or so USD a month.

Thats pretty horrible, and looks like a bald face lie to me.

how can you say you only make 1500 a month and be able to spend 300,000L$ on a classified ad?

1030 USD for a 1 week ad and your only make 1500? yeah right!!!!

Im sure it will happen if the FBI and the other US government bully boys get there way. The thing that bugs me is that the US only make up 31% of the population while Europe makes up the bigger part as shown here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pxbDc4B2FH95A_Mr7_a_gVw&gid=7

Why should we as Europeans have to put up with the ridiculous US laws, hurry up LLs lets have a European server farm for the majority of your customers, you have a UK office a short drive from here in Brighton, so there are no excuses not to have servers on UK soil where we dont use bully boy tactics over the internet and then we dont have to put up with your crazy countrys laws and rules

One potential problem though, according to our beloved PM in a reply to a petition, we wont stand for software patents either.
Good for me and you, bad for any software business used to having even the most simple ideas protected by law.

Here is how it is for now. As we know it, LL has contacted the Feds to look into the legality behind gambling in a virtual world. However, as it is stated in the article on www.cnn.com even the US gov. can not make a ruling yet as to the legality behind it because of the uncertanty of law when it comes to Virtual Worlds.

This means that for the time being casinos in SL should be ok to operate until at which point the US administration can make a ruling to determine the legality behind operating casino simulations. Regardless of my belief on this I have decided to close down Raiden Gold until a ruling is made one way or the other. I have established Raiden Gold on honost principles which also include operating within the limits of the law. Even though the law pertaining to this right now is undecided We still beleive that it is better to put things on hold until a final ruling is made.

except that if your found to be in violation they can still prosecute you even if you "didnt know"

Untrue, I would have to be found in violation after the ruling was made. Since there is no ruling that has been made there is no violation of law that can occur.

Good luck to anyone who wants to be a test case for the courts.

I think you guys are hitting the panic button. The law is very unclear on this activity. I DOUBT [but am not 100% sure] that Fed agencies are going toprosecute until the Atty. general or someone in the Justice Dept. issues an opinion on this. Second, even IF a violation is found, they are not going to go after people who have ceased to operate already. Third, even if its decided that opearting an in world casino is violative or federal laws, they will most likely issue warnings first.

I dont think the sky is falling yet.

No

You would only have to be in violatation after the LAW was passed. Not any ruling.

Whether theyd bother with prosecuting you is different.

But being in violation of a law does not depend on a judge making a ruling on similar cases. Not in the United states.