Automated Burglary

This is a key point. My perception is that for the most part, people don't "shop" in Second Life quite the way they do in RL. With the concept of teleporting, there is a certain "instant gratification" element to shopping. Need a table? Search "table", click Teleport and there you are. Don't like what you see? Teleport to the next place in the search results. Rinse, later, repeat. Even with "malls". When I have the occasional need to head over to the Depoz, I use the teleport station and ride the shopping cart to the place I'm after. I am familiar enough with the place that I sometimes just fly straight to the items I'm looking for, but I am definately not a "browser" or a window shopper.

Interesting, but I dont think this is everyone clamoring concern. Its a people with a low shopping tolerance concern.

Shopping is one of the Social Activities that exists in Second Life. Theres a lot of people who log on TO shop. And then later talk about what they got while shopping.

I will post on Forseti's replies eventually; right now I'm still recouperating from a hard weekend working on hubby's thesis.

Meanwhile, the Second Life Herald has a piece about the ESC at a "corporate retreat," complete with pictures.

coco

Meanwhile... and in a very scary parallel world, a very evil and unethical corporation ... pushes U.S. states to open public records which may very well contain data about us, and they want to search and list all that without our consent!

omg, stop the madness.

P.S. I guess this retreat was the out-of-town trips that prevented ESC from addressing our concerns.

With 7 million funding, they do live high on the hog. So far, far above our petty problems.

From their website:

"With 60 full-time employees this was our biggest retreat and a far cry from the 19 of us that attended the first retreat. By all accounts this trip was a success. From discussing the company vision to breaking out into work sessions to falling in love with each other (as in, “I can’t believe I work with these awesome people”), it was the perfect combination of work and play. You could have followed along on our twitter pages and various lifelogging projects."

Ooo! Awesome!

While we sit here waiting some response. (And still do, on some questions.)

coco

This solves absolutely nothing. Some of the items set for sale when they shouldn't be have "Sell copy" marked, and not "Sell Original".

Do you people even log on to the grid or how can you be so blatantly oblivious to these simple facts? On a constructive note, if you need a copy of an item that's mod/no copy/transfer and set for sale as "Sell Copy", just let me know.

Usually when there's resistance to web search engines it's about the caching and aggregation part rather than merely listing.
The equivalent of what Google does in SL would be to index more than just the title/description/for sale field, you would need to "cache" the actual prim and texture data as well.

If someone set up a sim where you tp to, type in "table" and it instantly recreates all the different tables it encountered on the grid, letting you pick which table you're interested in and getting a landmark to where it's located in-world when clicking on it, that would be Google on SL. And it's quite obvious that this would create the same massive outcry seen when copybot hit the grid.

Unless you're claiming that anyone "caching" any of ESC's builds isn't going to be hit with a lawsuit for IP infringement, don't use "it's no different" when it's not even close to the same.

LOL that's an interesting twist on the article. What I read is a Search Engine company is enabling the average citizen to finally get access to records which have always been public, but only accessible to the privileged few who could navigate the tangled web of government bureaucracy. This is a good thing.

What I read is someone from among the "usual suspects:" trying to drag another red herring through this thread and divert attention away from ESC, which has bungled its "search tool"from the start, bungled its introduction with it s "stealth" approach, and bungled its defense of its first two bungles by sending out shills to condescend to and insult the victims of their bungling and try by any means to take attention of ESC and its failed effort and onto ANYTHING else.

I expect an argument that anyone who opposes this nonsense is in favor of global warming at any moment...

What we need now is more ideas and methods for fixing this thing before worse malefactors than these (who I suspect are probably just keeping this going while they try to impress corporate prospects) begin to think we Residents really are dogmeat.

No, its not about "access" and "government bueaucracy." It's about a "service" that is mainly useful to people out to exploit others who are unwary or make honest mistakes, and which dragged people into it without their knowledge or consent. Period.

Looking at the pictures in the Herald - the fact that they might not understand some of our social concerns isnt surprizing.

Not necessarily,

If it publishes my mother's maiden name in a nice easy to find way, or other such information used by "forgotten password" verification methods. It could seriously benefit crackers, and ultimately be far mor damaging than "sheep search".

My sarcasm in that post was based on the fact that that service which is strictly "OPT-OUT" based is lauded as bringing positive progressive services... but try to do that in secondlife (with or without enjoying the benefits of angel funding), gets you accused of conspiracy to commit fraud and theft by people that SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN TO LEAVE THINGS AROUND UNSECURED, despite the lack of a better way to transfer items.

My position has shifted during this thread a few times, probably not enough for anyone still bothering to follow the thread to notice but here is where my thinking is now:

Folks want an "opt-in" method ?

Persuade esc to comply with listing only data found on parcels marked "[x] Publish on Web".

Simple, effective, and not limited to just esc, but ethically proper for any crawler to abide by. (assuming they comply with the DMCA).

You don't have to find esc to opt-in, they don't have to spam people with invitations, people that want privacy shouldn't advertise their parcels on the web.

Everyone wins, except the unfortunate newbies that try to start a retail shop in secondlife without knowing to check the publish to web option.

The Comedy Store is always looking for good talent.

Ok, so back to the questions at hand - I'll paraphrase them, and give my understanding of ESC's answer so far.

1. You won't consider opt-in service, and think that the searchbot would be useless if it were opt-in?

Answer: True.

2. What are your plans ... to proactively let the residents know that their objects for sale are being catalogued and listed on this site?

Answer: No answer.

3. After people opt out, is their data [both items for sale and all items owned] completely erased, or does it stay in the system in aggregate? ... Does opting out mean one's objects are not scanned and recorded at all?

Answer: "As for the data, we aren't doing anything with the data right now, or monetizing the service."

I guess this means that yes, they are collecting the data on everyone, and on all the objects they own. But they aren't doing anything with that data right now.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

4. To what end, if any, to you plan to put the information you have gathered, besides publishing it or portions of it on your search engine web site?

Answer: No answer yet.

6. Will information (including any and all not published on the site) be collated and made available to your corporate clients for market purposes? Will you be selling this information?

Answer: No answer yet.

coco

This is what I meant by the questions that got left out were more interesting than the ones he answered.

Although those on the thread quick to leap to the defense of ESC try to argue they wouldnt keep the data at all in attempts to "prove the ludites wrong" or whatever -

I find it interesting they see the need to take this stance. Since if Electric Sheep is entitled to record and display any of this information - they are entiltled to record and display all of it. They are also entitled to sell it.

They are either entitled to the information - or they arent.

I think the reason people use this defense is they know its more inflamatory for someone to maintain the data and give it to a corporate client, than to display for sale items on a search system intended for residents only.


This is why I think its wrong for them to gather and display some information OR all of it. I wont say its "Okay" if its just some of the information.

If this information is allowed to be gathered and given away - it will be. If not by Electric Sheep - By a near future Spy Bot.

Those who want Bots to proceed Unregulated should keep in mind how much information is in this category - and whether thats really the ideal future of a Metaverse thats only in its tiny infancy at most.

I don't have all the answers you want yet. We have some policies to figure out. To make it very simple, we're not doing anything bad with the data now (we're not doing anything at all with the data right now), and have no desire or intentions to do anything bad with the data in future.

Colette-

There's a difference between selling that data... and selling the service of collecting it. Yes, I'm splitting hairs, but I think it's an imporant distinction.

It's like Yadni's junkyard. He puts freebies in boxes for sale for L$1, charging for the service of collecting, organizing and presenting things that are, otherwise, entirely free. The boxes are Yadni's creations and property despite their contents. The references to objects in secondlife are the creations and property of esc.

Obviously esc isn't going to charge people to use their search engine, if they're attempting to be google-like, they may follow a model where some people can opt-in to be better presented on searches related to them. Who knows.

Whether or not some corporate interest is going to be interested in the raw data, or summaries/statistical work-ups of it, who knows.

The only real corporate value I can see for esc's service & dataset is for people looking to start businesses in secondlife. If they can get a report on how common certain products are... compared to how many search queries show people are looking for those products, it may help them better pick an area that has a higher customer base and a lower number of businesses supplying that product.

Smart competitive course of action to persue. Assuming that large corporate interests feel the time and effort of creating a product line for revenue in secondlife has any value to them above and beyond mere branding and advertising of their real world products.


I'm curious what kinds corporate uses for this kind of data are you and Coco are thinking of that make you so wary?

I listed potential uses already.

Thats besides the point though -

If its acceptable for them to Gather Data on For sale objects from accross the grid in an Opt out system most people dont know about ...

Then it should be possible for them to Gather Data on all objects from accross the grid in an Opt out system most people dont know wbout.

Why would one be acceptable and one not?

If both are TOS/CS safe - why do some defenders make such a point to make the distinction?

If the one is not inconsiderate, than why is the other?

Conversely- if one is unacceptable than so should the other be.

Anything else would be sheepocritical.

Why?

If this data is freely collectable PUBLIC data - WHY?

They should be able to sell it or sell the service or anything else they dam well please with it.

If theres something wrong with them systematically collecting and distributing it - Then they shouldnt be displaying it at all.

I will agree that there is probably a reasonable expectation that data WITHIN secondlife STAY with in secondlife.

I don't care if a crawler includes only for-sale, or all items, that distinction makes no significant difference.

What does matter to me is the issue of consent to allow data to be viewed from OUTSIDE of secondlife. (Which is why I advocate checking for the "publish to web" parcel flag). This isn't a "to be legal" thing... and arguably isn't a "to be ethical" thing.. it's more of a "to be polite" thing.

What I don't understand is the fear that esc did not swear to refrain from selling the reference data they collect. I don't want to get too "Information wants to be free" about it... but who would bother buying it? And why should any of us worry if they do? What harm will come to us as a result of esc selling data they collected? As long esc and their customers are not violating the DMCA in the process. (I searched back a few pages on this thread looking for your list of possible uses, but missed it... sorry, would you point me at it?)

I suppose there is the risk that it may be easier for non-residents to catch residents violating the DMCA. To which my answer is: GOOD!

But were told we cant have that.

The publish on the web flag isnt being respected by the sheep bot.

People say this is public data - and that its okay to put on a 3rd party website - in other words away from Second Life.

In for a penny in for a pound.

Basically all "public" information is either okay to display on a website and sell to corporate concerns.

Or its not.

As to who would use the data? Why did adware get started.

You're right. You can't have that.

Not without every resident in secondlife signing the equivalent of a non-disclosure agreement, and an expensive squad of lawyers and enforcement backing it up.

I'm arguing FOR respecting to "publish to web" because it would be more considerate, that's all. It doesn't have to be polite for it to be legitimate, but it would set a good example to set for those that will inevitably follow.

Adware got started by people trying to promote their own products... are you implying that advertisers will track products back to those that sell them so they can come into secondlife and direct-market to residents based on what they have on their parcels?

Im refering to the data mining where they keep track of the sort of websites you visit.

What Objects you rezz and what they are called gives some indication of your interests.

If out of 1000 objects 100 of mine say BDSM related things - chances are im not preparing for a bridge club simulation in Second Life.

Again I gave my guesses already to Cory in the other thread.

Yes, it would certainly give others a peek into what your interests are.

People google each other for the same kind of 'dirt' fairly routinely these days and come up with all sorts of incriminating stuff. Legal, ethical, polite... doesn't matter, it's a large part of today's culture.

Fortunately, it's against tos to spam residents.

Repeat offenders will stick out like sore thumbs and get ip-banned, and if it becomes a problem it may finally drive home the need for MORE privacy controls within secondlife.

It is far easier and effective to discipline those that bring unwanted data IN than it is to try to prevent or punish those for bringing data out.

Saying that the searchbot isnt necessarily bad becuase google is worse -- Is like saying its not bad when someone steals your purse, becuase somewhere people rob banks.

Unless the goal is to repeat a series of privacy invasion mistakes which led to what you describe in small steps - I fail to see why the comparison is an argument for anything but the elimination of a searchbot type system.

Well, that's one interpretation of what I said. It's not what I meant though.

My point was that it is now a common practice, and it's legal.
(neither of which you can claim for bank robbery).

Guns are designed to inflict harm. Even USING a gun is illegal in many cases.
You can say those are both arguments for the elimination of all jobs where
people make guns, and few would say you're wrong to wish it so.

But that argument must be compelling enough to get the law changed,
and, thus far, those and many more reasons have failed even that.

After 58 pages on this thread... and plenty of reasons against secondlife
searchbots, I've seen no reasons compelling enough to get linden lab to
take a stand on this issue, not one that the detractors would like at least.

You can hold out hope if you like... but I think the direction is clear.

Open sourced viewers and bots,
More 3rd parties symbiotically existing beside secondlife,
Conflicting customer interests and corporate involvement,
continued lack of effective privacy,
and all the positive and negative results of each of those and more.

Whether we like it or not.

Reason:

Resident's Rights

IF thats not a worthwhile goal then this is a pointless conversation.

Bring on the tracker Bots and Spybots, Let them track whatever they want.

If your not in a gated community you will be in a "Public Place".

Your entire privacy rights anywhere else will be the following -
-Your conversations cant be monitored. (this wont be enforced - its not now)
-People cant share your First Life Information. (likely Ditto)

Anything else will be fair game.


Yes, you are right, this is the path were on. Its Pathetic, really.