No copy = Bad Idea

Anyone else go shopping for things like pose balls or furniture that has to be rezzed in world, and think No Copy is a terrible idea?

All too often, I've seen stuff rezzed, then sim crashes, or someone goes over prim limit and things get returned (but don't actually get returned), or any of a dozen different server issues... And that no copy chair you bought is gone forever, creator says "Not my problem, SL broke.", and LL says "Resident to resident dispute, not our problem."

I find myself either completely avoiding buying no copy stuff, or buying it and figuring out how it works to create my own, or backing it up on my hard drive (which is probably illegal, but I've lost too many No Copy items not to do this).

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

No Copy is a good idea if you want to allow people to give gifts. It just depends on the situation. There are collectible items that are no copy that lose much of their value if they could be copied. I have trouble imagining furniture in either of those sencarios though, unless it is some mighty unique furniture.

Yes, it can be a little dangerous.



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Without wishing to get into a discussion of copy vs transfer rights on objects, I have to say I don't often find stuff goes missing when it's rezzed in world under normal circumstances.

In the light of your reference to things getting returned but apparently not arriving in your inventory, are you sure they're not hiding in your lost and found folder as "coalesced items" -- see http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/How_to_retrieve_coalesced_items.

As a creator yourself you will know that its a choice for you, do you make the item copy or transfer? Both is not sensible, unless you are going to charge a LOT for the item.

So.. is the item best set to Copy or Transfer? Is it going to sell better as Copy or Transfer?

If the creator has made the choice for Transfer, you could go and ask him/her to sell you a Copy version... most creators would consider that option.. I have seen some offer both, in separate vendors..

I don't have a problem generally.

And, by the way, clearing your cache, perhaps several times, and checking for Lost and Found sometimes brings your lost item back.


Imogen

Well you choose the way you want to be eaten : no copy or no transfer. Both have pros and cons. Some shops have the 2 versions.

I put a ticket in the last time I lost no copy items and included what happened when the items poofed. Both items were recovered and I haven't had problems in nearly two years since then.

I generally don't buy no copy clothes as I mix outfits in different ways. I prefer no copy objects many times as I can pass those on when I am no longer getting use out of them.

Some stuff just has to be no copy, that's just how it is. If SL is borked, you shouldn't be rezzing no copy stuff as you may loose it. LL generally sends out system messages when things are borked telling you specifically to avoid L$ transactions or rezzing no copy items. One of M Linden's biggest things when he took over was to stop LL from adding so much new functionality to SL and concentrating on grid stability, and I think it shows. The grid is MUCH more stable than it was say, 3 years ago. Also, new features are tested far more and far longer before the functionality hits the main grid. As far as inventory back up is concerned, It's definitely not illegal, and I'm pretty sure it's not against TOS either. In either case, it's freely available to purchase and use, so if you think it's worth the 29 Euro (about 40 bucks), then maybe you should invest in it. Personally, the way I look at it, if I loose a chair I paid $250L for, big deal, it's only a buck. For some reason, that's alot of money to people in SL. Why, I don't know, but in the big scheme of things, it's not a huge deal.

That.

This used to be true. Past tense. I haven't seen one of these warnings sent in-world where it needs to be seen, in truth needs to be seen long before it even makes the grid status page, in an EXTREMELY long time.

Think there's any hope they'll ever start actually informing people in-world of these issues again?

With the exception of certain use cases the most effective permissions are mod/copy/no transfer.

I don't know what you mean by 'most effective'.

Mod:
I make stuff.. my name is on it. I don't want amateurs modifying it beyond what settings I choose to build into it for them to change. Therefore, virtually everything I make is no mod. Not all, but most.

Copy:
I sell stuff. I sell clocks specifically, along with some other things, including a few huds. Since huds are a worn item, I make them copyable so it's easy to add to outfits for residents. However, clocks are meant to be rezzed in world, therefore, they are no copy. I have people buy several (of the same type) of clock from me because they have several locations where they want clocks. If I sold them copyable, they'd only need to buy one. I could charge a copy price, but then it would be much more expensive, and people who want just 1 clock would have to pay the premium price to get a copyable one, which is stupid, so, my clocks are no copy.

Transfer. Anything I sell no copy is automatically transferable, which is fine with me, if they want to give it away or sell it, that's fine with me, there's nothing wrong with that. The huds I sell that are copyable, I set to no trans for obvious reasons... they could resell it if it were both copy and transfer.

Bottom line, there is no 'most effective' permissions setting, it's mainly dependent on what the item is, and weather or not it's worn or rezzed.

I do sell a rezzable object, a couple of street lamps, that are copyable, but that's because someone building a sim would want a copyable item like that because you're going to have many street lamps in the build. Therefore, I sell them copyable, but, at the same time, I charge more for it than I normally would (although $500L is a great deal for a copyable street lamp that turns on/off automatically, and, is mod so it can be sized to the build).

Again, there is no 'most effective' permission setting. It's entirely dependent on weather or not it's wearable or rezzable in world, and what the item is, and other considerations as well.

In the end, all cases are certain use cases, so your statement really doesn't make any sense.

My furniture is nopcopy, and I never had a problem with that. Customers having trouble (which seldom happens) simply got a replacement, with a Note in their profile so I remember it happened.

Copy or nocopy is not so much the issue, customer service is. Any good merchant values the relationship with their customers, and will replace items that poofed. It costs us nothing, and we gain a lot by it. Customers who come back again and again (which I never saw happen so far) do either have client side problems which I would try to assist with, or are trying to get free rides. Again, I never had that happen.

Marcel

I think with furniture, the logic is that if it was copy, landlords could just buy one set and furnish an entire estate full of properties with it. It is annoying for the rest of us, although not as annoying as no-mod. I hope you get your stuff back.

for a long time I used to sell both copy and transfer for a large selection of my items. I found sales were pretty well equal for both.

So it's all down to personal taste.

Most of the stuff I sell is copyable. But I do sell some houses that are no copy. The reason for this is that a landlord could buy one house for a few L$ and then fill several entire sims with copies to rent out, all for the price of one.

However, the small club buildings I've recently put on sale are copyable - I can't think of any advantages an owner could get from rezzing multiple copies of the same club!!!

I think there's a problem for sellers if they make something copy+transfer - then a new owner could sell as many copies as they like. So often it's a good idea to make transferable items 'no copy'.

For most people, they have no copy items that they use without incident, e.g., jewelry.

In terms of sales, I have sold approximately 3x as many no-copy houses as I have copiable houses, since I started tracking sales via hippoVEND in May 2007.

Many people do not wish to pay the premium for a copiable house and will roll the dice. And for the vast majority of them, their decision has been just fine. I can count on my hands how many times I've been asked to deal with a problem that was actually SL's fault and not theirs.

Contrariwise: I DO want amateurs modding my stuff and seeing what happens. That is how they learn what works and what does not. Then if it breaks being able to rez a new copy. Or giving either to one of their friends. I enjoy building something for the challenge of building it and teaching other people something, so I always release things with all permissions open.

Besides, if I was in this to make money I can do that FAR more effectively in RL!

Amen!

I began selling my furniture items no copy. To begin with they are very low priced so if someone wants two of something, it's still very inexpensive.

Then I began reading threads here with people stating they will never buy anything that is no copy...period. Ok...decided to try that out, and upped the price a bit.

Then Christmas approached and people on this thread began complaining about merchants selling only copy items which made them hard to gift.

Aarrrrggggghhhhhh

I recently visited some well-known, successful furniture/home accessory designers (many from these forums) and pretty much without fail all sold their items no copy.

So, back to no copy for me and if anyone wants a copy version I will work with them.

Note: During this transition time back and forth I never saw a difference in sales.

Fine -- I won't buy your stuff. You're within your rights to sell no-mod, but you'll lose sales from those of us who like things the way we want them, rather than how they happened to be made.

I especially dislike no-mod menu-based furniture: the vendors have removed the ability to add poses, save positions, or reset in case of a script error or sim problem.

A better reason for no-mod is that on worn or no-copy items, it avoids customer service calls for people who broke the product trying to modify it.

I sell my products copy/no-mod. If rentals buy one and use it everywhere, fine. Businesses come and go so fast in SL I'm happy to sell one per biz. But I can understand those who choose a different model.

Of course, most people pay little heed to permissions before buying.

I've noticed some customers buy two copies of my copiable items. Ah well. Not that I've never done anything that silly!

I'll be sure to remember that when they think login messages that usually contain some ad spam or pointless publicity redirect are a good place to post those warnings... regardless of the several thousand people online already... nevermind how many people lost things BEFORE LL noticed there was a problem.

I've literally lost dozens of no copy items to things as simple as a sim reset, or more complex bugs involving problems with the asshat. in only ONE instance was any warning issued at the time, and then it was via login message, which I never received because I was already online... and had been for hours.

after losing a very valuable collection of animations in an AO to one of these instance I'm very leery of touching anything no-copy... I have similar feeling about most no-mod content, and if it's both... odds are I wouldn't touch it if someone paid me


not to you, obviously, but not everyone can just toss money around willy nilly... In RL if I pay a dollar for something, I expect to have the item I purchased, and not have it randomly disappear...

I can respect that you don't want some random land baron only giving you a pittance for your single product and then using it in 50 locations. but I also don't think it makes good business sense. If anshe chung swooped down and bought one of my publicly available products, and then proceeded to use it on every single estate and prefab available, not only would I not begrudge it, I'd throw a party.... that's instant exposure to someone else's entire client base... and if they like how it works, they'll want to find out who made it, and odds are I'll gain quite a few customers, and probably a few competitors too (I actually like competitors, they bring new features to the table, features that I can add, and probably improve on)

I had a Neolove base go walkabouts at their update area a couple of weeks ago. Those things aren't cheap (I'd updated this one a fair bit), and much as I wish they were copy/ no trans, they're not, for obvious reasons!

However, one of the reasons I buy from there is the excellent customer support - I was handed a more than equal replacement base by the ever impressive co-owner within minutes of reporting it. I'd have been happy simply to get my old one back, but won't complain at that level of customer care!

I do tend to steer away from no copy items in general though unless they're very cheap, as not all sellers will provide the same service..

/me luvs copyable stuffs.

I also think it sells a lot more, in total.

What has the person got to lose, after all? No manufacturing costs for copies!

My business partner and I sell almost all our stuff (primarily pretty expensive BDSM furniture) copy/mod. The exception -- which is copy, of course -- is some furniture that either animates in use (bits of the furniture move themselves around, I mean) or has menu options to make it change shape. We've left this no-mod in the past because if people start resizing it or moving stuff around they'll break it, and I don't want to handle complaints from customers that they tried a bit of DIY and it won't work now. There's obviously a lot of bits they could safely mod, but I'm worried what happens when they try to mod stuff I don't want them to tinker with.

I can't say we've had any requests that I recall for modified or modifiable versions; do folks think we ought to leave them mod? Given the messes that some people manage make of something like changing the positions in our MLPV furniture and the amount of time we find we spend helping them do something comparatively simple like that, I'm rather unwilling to give people further scope to break stuff.

Haven't you been paying attention? The new website, the Dashbored (tm), AU, M's hints about possibly taking group management to the web, LL doesn't want you to do stuff in world. It won't scale. (tm)

I tend to avoid buying items that are no-copy and/or no-mod unless I can't find the equivalent elsewhere or the item is unusually cheap.

Though there are also a few times when I've abandoned a planned build or idea rather than buy the no-copy/no-mod item.