Having to give out personal information that is generally used only by banks, tax agencies and the government as a "last bastion" against identity theft, just to access an online service (or parts of an online service) just isn't reasonable.
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Open Letter to Linden Lab Management regarding Age Verification in Second Life |
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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05-14-2007 08:34
Do you realize that Integrity is the service that the banks, large entertainment companies and now Anheuser-Busch are using for verification? You've probably already used Integrity in the course of accessing your online banking information. Why is this such a dangerous path for Linden Lab to use the same service?
Having to give out personal information that is generally used only by banks, tax agencies and the government as a "last bastion" against identity theft, just to access an online service (or parts of an online service) just isn't reasonable. |
Wren Murasaki
Registered User
Join date: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 23
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05-14-2007 08:59
Why would Age Verification be a problem for the OP? Haven't they already given their names and addresses to LL in accordance with the TOS's requirements? Their real grievance is that Age Verification will expose the lies they told when they registered. No further questions your honor.
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Gillian Vuckovic
Purple Power!
![]() Join date: 4 Mar 2007
Posts: 176
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05-14-2007 09:03
So on one hand there are people paranoid that their details might be misused or stolen. On the other are people pontificating over how everyone who is questioning it has something to hide or is plain stupid.
Can you feel the love? ![]() _____________________
It's always a party with Funzo!
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Maggie McArdle
FIOS hates puppies
Join date: 8 May 2006
Posts: 2,855
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05-14-2007 09:10
ummmm so basically the OP wants to right to have its members remain anonymous, while engaging in "erotic encounters"......hmmmm sounds sooo familiar.....
_____________________
There's, uh, probably a lot of things you didn't know about lindens. Another, another interesting, uh, lindenism, uh, there are only three jobs available to a linden. The first is making shoes at night while, you know, while the old cobbler sleeps.You can bake cookies in a tree. But the third job, some call it, uh, "the show" or "the big dance," it's the profession that every linden aspires to.
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Lillyann Chaplin
Registered User
![]() Join date: 29 Dec 2006
Posts: 38
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05-14-2007 09:20
Hello,
the problem is.. that this is absolutely uncalled for... the 3rd party company cannot verify my identity. The only thing.. better 'entity' that can do this is the place where my passport is registered. This can be done like this: I give my ID number to the 3rd party, they call here or transfer the ID and then.... they get told... well... nothing... and I get in trouble for providing this information to a random, non-authorized and legally not-bound-to-anything company. 'Vaulted' hahaha.. great... vaulted? I call an audit... right now... on the grounds of suspected minors using their parents ID. Proof to me that the IDs are valid and that the account is used by the person registered. I want proof though... not a 'yes' click... DNA maybe? Oh boy... yes... make a 'DNA enabled' keyboard that reports the data to someone... and checks against a database of 'well known individuals'... oh boy! Excuse me... so sorry for getting worked up, but this 'You are honest, so why are you complaining?'-thing is... well.. naive at the best. I am me. I am over 18. I pay with my CC. I have to proof nothing to anybody. It will be 'voluntary', yes. There will be hopefully very few verifying. I love SL, really do especially one person... but... see it this way... I will not verify... not until they accept that my CC has to be enough. There are alternatives to SL. Not as 'free' as it is now... but then... at least they will be accepting my honesty at face value, not through dubious and questionable checks. _____________________
Regards,
Lillyann |
Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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05-14-2007 09:24
Do you realize that Integrity is the service that the banks, large entertainment companies and now Anheuser-Busch are using for verification? You've probably already used Integrity in the course of accessing your online banking information. Why is this such a dangerous path for Linden Lab to use the same service? Because suggesting that any of these places should authenticate people in the same way as banks is incredibly dangerous. Ideally, there should always be some piece of information that banks can ask for that no-one else does, because that makes sure that even if someone steals all your identity information that you have posted elsewhere, they still can't open bank accounts in your name or mess with your own bank account. |
Rocky Rutabaga
isn't wearing underwear™
![]() Join date: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 291
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05-14-2007 09:40
Stop making it "voluntary", and force everyone to verify or not log in - that then stops any stigma that may be attached to the flagging. The Linden Lab "free for all" pipe dream might have worked well in the sixties, but doesn't work in today's environment. After all, no other game/world/platform/whatever gives you free unlimited access forever; there are reasons for this I am sure. My theory is that LL has changed its business model big time. It now wants corporations to use this as a 3D Internet. And LL doesn't want to hinder the corporations' visitors from getting to those corporate sims. For instance: Kraft comes in and builds a huge cooking-school sim. Maybe people can drop in for cooking classes by famous chefs. Maybe they can even receive special codes that enable them to download coupons for discounts and free product samples. Kraft promotes the simsite in women's service magazines like "Woman's Day" and "Good Housekeeping." The ad in those magazines drives them to a website that links them to an SL registration page. If part of that registration process includes giving out Credit Card info or other RL details, Kraft will lose a lot of potential sign-ups. LL wants Kraft to get lots and lots of registrations, so they will keep the unverified option wide open. Just a hunch. _____________________
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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05-14-2007 09:53
Do you realize that Integrity is the service that the banks, large entertainment companies and now Anheuser-Busch are using for verification? You've probably already used Integrity in the course of accessing your online banking information. Why is this such a dangerous path for Linden Lab to use the same service? How many of those services you list do you need to signup for by providing information from your social security number, passport number, driving licence number or national id card number? |
Colette Meiji
Registered User
![]() Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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05-14-2007 09:59
That is the main part of my concern. I have no problem proving that I am legally over 18 (I could almost verify that twice) and having a mark on my profile stating that I am - but I certainly don't want every horny sleazeball hitting on me thinking I'm going to cyber with him (or her, I guess) simply because they read the tag as "I want sex". Stop making it "voluntary", and force everyone to verify or not log in - that then stops any stigma that may be attached to the flagging. The Linden Lab "free for all" pipedream might have worked well in the sixties, but doesn't work in today's environment. After all, no other game/world/platform/whatever gives you free unlimited access forever; there are reasons for this I am sure. Broccoli Well ... I dont think the mouth breather gold toof horney sleazeballs even bother to read your profile first. But perhaps they will when the over 18 tag exists. |
Rusty Satyr
Meadow Mythfit
![]() Join date: 19 Feb 2004
Posts: 610
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05-14-2007 10:40
Wanting a guarantee that investments made will not be subjected to a drastic rule change seems quite reasonable to me. I find it hard to argue with the OP.
It is *entirely* possible that at some future date linden lab may decide voluntary opt-in "mature parcel" flags are insufficient and declare that entry into all mature sims requires age verification. Stranger things have happened. I'm certain there will be no promise or guarantee from linden lab promising they'll never actually take this course of action. If they respond at all, it will be on the "we have no intentions to do that at this time" naturally. The only quip I have with the OP is that calling something an "open letter" when it's posted to a closed members-only area is kind of a contradiction. ![]() Good luck with your endeavor... And for people worried about being labelled sexual deviants and perverts for age-verifying... you've got an easy out: "Hey, I was just trying to buy alcohol online... what the hell is wrong with that?" ![]() |
Brenda Archer
Registered User
![]() Join date: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 557
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05-14-2007 11:05
[10:12] Daniel Linden: it’s vaulted to provided a government-required audit trail for two years, but neither Linden or Integrity can access that data unless an audit is initiated. Would someone who knows about Patriot Act powers chime in here? It's gotten very easy for the U.S. Federal government to get hold of anything it wants just by using the word "terrorist." Aristotle's connections to the Republican Party only make this more likely. I wanted verification at first, now I think we're looking at a train wreck with no good outcome. I also think it was inevitable given the larger political mood outside SL. We could not be a free zone forever. Users of SL not in the US should also read the following links. Any data stored in the U.S. on noncitizens is pretty much the government's to do with as it wishes. I'm left wondering if LL has been given a choice in any of this, and I am not the paranoid type. I'm not worried for myself, since I'm already paying with my debit card and therefore have no privacy left anyway. But some folks do have to care. Where I worry for myself is in the fact that's it's not a sure thing the tide of religious domination in U.S. politics can be turned back. Medieval ideas about sexuality combined with hypermodern data collection are a disaster waiting to happen, and not just in SL. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/usapatriot/ _____________________
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Dakotaflyer Rau
German Rep0rt3r!
Join date: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 89
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05-14-2007 11:21
Personnaly I will not be opting into this verification thing as well the only risque thing I do in SL is occasionally gamble. On the other hand I am totally against it for the sakes of those who are adults and wish to partake in adult entertainment. While I doubt it will go so far as the paranoid types worrying about agents of Teh Theocracy! busting down their door in the middle of the night and hauling them off to some place. There are real valid security, and privacy concerns I am thinking. One is this 3rd party does not seem like one anyone should be trusting I am sure the SL verification data will be for sale probably before you log on. With everything tied into computers and companys offering more and more data for sale, do you really wish for your next employer to find out about your private life in a game?
2nd and much more important are the ID theft concerns, which I am sure we will hear about in a month at the least after this schemes implementation |
Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
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05-14-2007 11:53
Stop making it "voluntary", and force everyone to verify or not log in - that then stops any stigma that may be attached to the flagging. The Linden Lab "free for all" pipedream might have worked well in the sixties, but doesn't work in today's environment. After all, no other game/world/platform/whatever gives you free unlimited access forever; there are reasons for this I am sure. Broccoli I hope you're kidding...you want LL to FORCE everyone to give up their SS#, address, RL name, passport #'s, ID #'s in order to access the grid at all? I think someone in another thread had it right...taking Mom's ID to verify is a lot easier than getting her credit card charged without her knowing about it to become "payment info. used" Valid identiy verification or not, it's a better way to weed out the kiddies. I also liked the idea someone posted a while ago of boxing the game, marking it Mature, and having people buy it at the store for a very small fee, $5 or less US. The $$ LL makes from selling $L should easily cover the cost of that, downloads would only be available to those who have the purchase code, and much fewer minors would be able to purchase it and it shifts the liability to the store selling the thing. This is the way most online games work. In any case if they made it mandatory for logging in I think SL would be out of business. I'm not providing the last 4 of my SS# to a 3rd party that supports the republican party and who has said that they store the info. |
Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
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05-14-2007 11:57
It is *entirely* possible that at some future date linden lab may decide voluntary opt-in "mature parcel" flags are insufficient and declare that entry into all mature sims requires age verification. I certainly hope not, my land is on mature land, I bought it several years ago at the wonderful price of $4/sqm and will NOT pay today's prices for the same quality of PG land unless LL provides it for me! Not gonna verify! Nothing to hide but I don't trust this company and sad as it is, living in the US, I don't really trust the govt. under the current administration and under the heavy fist of the patriot act. |
Darkness Anubis
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,628
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05-14-2007 12:55
I will not be verifying until forced by LL and even then I am going to think long and hard on it. The company in question SELLS personal info. That makes them dubious in my book. If I get restricted to PG so be it. Won't phase me in the least.
I closed all my adult businesses awhile ago. |
Elinah Iredell
Registered User
Join date: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 269
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05-14-2007 13:13
Open letter to Linden Lab Management, and specifically addressed to: Philip Rosedale - Founder and CEO, Linden Lab Robin Harper - Vice President, Community Development and Support Ginsu Yoon - Vice President, Business Affairs Dear Philip, Robin and Ginsu, Our company KI Media has had a presence in Second Life since December 2006. We run a large successful swingers dating website at http://www.swingersfunclub.nl. Swingers are couples that are in search of other couples for erotic experiences. Our members are of all ages (18 to 65+) and come from all social classes and include (but not limited to) people with public professions like artists, police officers, lawyers and politicians. Before we came to Second Life, the primary means of communication between our members was by webmail and by using the chatrooms on our website. When we learned of Second Life we saw the potential of having 3D avatar based chat over conventional chat systems. We also evaluated competitive environments like Active Worlds and Outer Worlds. The choice for using Second Life was primarily based on usability, the high level of personal freedom, and the fact that Second Life was accessible to all of our community members without any obstacles (financial or otherwise). Establishing our presence involved buying an Island and building a Swingers Club as a central meeting place for our members. The island now also features houses for our members and a shopping mall for Swingers Lifestyle related merchandise. Since the opening we have actively promoted Swingers Funclub in SL as our community chatroom, which resulted in extended news media coverage because we were the fist party to establish a virtual Swingers Club in Second Life. Although we do not have explicit sexual photographic content, some of the graphics used on our island are of an erotic nature. Our members who visit our club are usually in search of contacts that are erotic in nature as well. That is why we have marked our Island settings as being a "Mature" island. We have been reading the announcements on the linden blog regarding the age verification system with great concern. On the official linden blog it is written at Thursday, May 10th, 2007: "you will need to verify age only if you want to enter parcels/estates flagged as containing adult content" Although we welcome any initiative that makes Second Life more secure, we have serious objections against the announced identity verification system. Access to the grid is already regulated by your terms of service (TOS), which states in article 2.2: "Users under the age of 18 are prohibited from accessing the Service [...] By accepting this agreement in connection with an Account outside the Teen Area, you represent that you are an adult 18 years of age or older". This means that anybody under the age of 18 accessing the main grid is in violation of the TOS, and any legal liability for doing so lies entirely by the offending person, their parents or their legal guardians. We can understand that you would like to give island owners and parcel owners the opportunity to deny access to accounts that do not have an age verification flag set. However this should be a choice to be made by the owners of the land, and not enforced by Linden Lab. In the TOS under which we bought our island it is stated in article 1.2: "Linden Lab is a service provider, which means, among other things, that Linden Lab does not control various aspects of the Service. You acknowledge that Linden Lab is a service provider that may allow people to interact online regarding topics and content chosen by users of the service, and that users can alter the service environment on a real-time basis. Linden Lab generally does not regulate the content of communications between users or users' interactions with the Service" The announced age verification is in violation with the Second Life TOS. When Linden Lab denies age-unverified members access to our island, it is then actively regulating interaction between users, and between our customers and our service. Linden Lab should behave like a service provider as specified by the TOS and not intervene in communication or content, unless the intervention is required by order of a court of law. Age-unverified only means that a person's age has not been verified, it does not mean that a person is not of adult age. The nature of our Swingers Lifestyle Community is such that our members do not want to be officially registered as being interested in erotic content or related activities. This is especially the case for people who have public functions like artists, police officers, lawyers and politicians. From the protests that come out of the broader Second Life Community we understand that the majority of the Second Life population does not wish to be officially registered as being interested in erotic content or related activities either. You may be well aware of the fact that your customers have no control whatsoever over the extend to which their identity information is going to be stored, used or sold by any 3rd party. We assume you have made a legally binding agreement with the 3rd party prohibiting the use or disclosure of identity information. But even then, when that 3rd party goes bankrupt or changes ownership, such agreements become void and the identity information could then be used or sold by any party that gains ownership over that information. We hereby would like to state that Swingers Island is our virtual property, and the choice to who to allow access to our island is entirely ours. We believe the responsibility for being the legal age is entirely with the visitor and we are against enforcing this identity registration and verification system. We are seeing that the majority of the Second Life population is rejecting the announced age verification system as well. This means that when Linden Lab is going to restrict access to our island there will be substantially less visitors. Fewer visitors to our island will ultimately have financial consequences for our company, for which we will hold Linden Labs entirely responsible. Such liability may ultimately also include the investments in time and money already made in developing our Second Life property. Therefore we would like to ask you urgently to guarantee unrestricted access to our island for all our customers. Kian Stardust KI Media The Netherlands Phone +31-20-6920737 Fax +31-20-6920734 This is a very well written argument finally a lawyer has gotten hold of this issue... |
Elinah Iredell
Registered User
Join date: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 269
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05-14-2007 13:39
Just a few comments on this well-articulated, but otherwise pointless "Open Letter". Participating in the age verification program does not label you, or "register" you as you put it, as being interested in erotic content, or any other content of any particular nature. It simply sets a flag on your account which indicates you are at or over the age of consent. For your members, this poses no risk of exposure beyond that which currently exists. For your management, it provides a mechanism to ensure that those accessing your content are of legal age to do so, completely removing this burden from you, short of setting your region and parcel flags appropriately. Your observation that the majority of the Second Life population are rejecting the announced age verification system is dubious at best. If you have devised a method to accurately take the pulse of the community at large, I'm certain the rest of us would be very interested in knowing what you have come up with. The noise here in the forums is contained to a relatively small fraction of the community, and cannot be relied upon to arrive at the conclusion you have. As for your reference to the section of the Terms of Service you feel this program would cause Linden Lab to "violate", elsewhere in same said document, it states: Well if your info gets seen it does give the impression that your interested in erotic content isn't that why most would agree to be verified because they want to access adult land? What is supposed to be on adult land? Erotic content. I have no interest in erotic content but I sure do have a problem with giving my ss# out over the internet . I dont give out my personal info unless I have to . This is a serious privacy concern no matter what way they describe it , and if you read their info on this linden does say they may have to make verification go grid wide and if it does it will effect me personally then. I dont think this forum represents a small fraction of the community... I like to think of it of as some of our best and brightest ( smile ) . It is true Linden can change their agreement I thought of that myself but what this letter is showing is that people are seriously upset and that businesses in adult flagged places will lose money. But more than that I hope they realize that by asking for this info, it is illegal to give it to them in some of the countries and how downright risky it is to give out personal info over the internet in any case. Elinah |
Mortus Allen
Registered User
Join date: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 528
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05-14-2007 13:40
3) The methods of verification are actually illegal in some countries; handing out personal information such as passport or ID number to a company based in a foreign country is prohibited. You don't give these details for the guy from Africa who needs your help to get $10 million out of the country from a secret bank account of someone who died in a plane crash, so why should this be any different? I think this is the most compelling argument most are missing. For some what LL will be asking for is an illegal act in their country, in others it is just plain stupid. I see mostly U.S. Residents and Companies saying this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. That is all well and fine for you, but what about those of us that may be in a country where giving this information to anyone in a foriegn country is a crime? Are you seriously saying that these people should discard Law for the choice to give out information that can be used against them, IE Identity Theft? If their identity is stolen what recourse do they have but to admit that they commited a crime? I am not saying I will not verify if NON-SEXUAL places I like to frequent end up behind Adult lines. Only that I will be checking what LL asks for against my local laws and recomendations and if it turns up illegal or just plain stupid they will likely loose one of many legitimate users from the grid, and I am sure a fare number of companies as well. I personnally will not commit a crime just to reopen access to certain areas of the grid because they turn up pointlessly flagged adult because of some stupid concern or another. Guess what those companies will also leave SL because it just does not have the usership to justify the expense. |
Daisy Rimbaud
Registered User
Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 764
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05-15-2007 00:59
I am not saying I will not verify if NON-SEXUAL places I like to frequent end up behind Adult lines. Only that I will be checking what LL asks for against my local laws and recomendations and if it turns up illegal or just plain stupid they will likely loose one of many legitimate users from the grid, and I am sure a fare number of companies as well. I personnally will not commit a crime just to reopen access to certain areas of the grid because they turn up pointlessly flagged adult because of some stupid concern or another. Guess what those companies will also leave SL because it just does not have the usership to justify the expense. Well, this is quite evidently what's going to happen. I guess that what LL mean by "adult" is hardcore pornography, but their definition is ambiguous and vague, so people are interpreting it to include swimsuit vendors that have any suggestion of cheesecake about them. Added to uncertainty about how the system is going to be policed, and I can see people flagging every second property as "adult" just as a defensive measure. After all, as things stand, it seems you can be held responsible as a landowner for anyone coming onto your land and using their Xcite bits. So you could be AR'd for "allowing" sexual behavior on a totally bare parcel. Even if you were away on vacation at the time. So for the many legitimate users who will not use the verification system for the reasons given above in the thread, SL will be a forest of ban lines. I plan on retiring to my house and just using IM to chat to friends. Really, SL will be poisoned by this system as so far described. It might be rescuable if LL gave a narrow and precise definition of "adult". I would suggest the following: "A parcel must be flagged as 'adult' if it contains images of: sexual intercourse, genitals clearly in an aroused state, or the infliction of serious injury (e.g. mutliation)." That's pretty well unambiguous. Any landowner can read that and make a correct decision about parcel flagging. The irony is, there are plenty of web sites out there where you can access all sorts of pornography just by clicking a button that says "I am 18 or older", so it's really questionable whether any system is needed at all. |
Morwen Bunin
Everybody needs a hero!
Join date: 8 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,743
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05-15-2007 01:17
. After all, no other game/world/platform/whatever gives you free unlimited access forever; there are reasons for this I am sure. But for any other "games" (to use a general name) I played (Ultima Online, Lineage II, Starwar Galaxies, City of Villains, Everquest II and so more) my Credit Card was enough to verify that I was adult. SoE for instance has it clear in their ToS that only an adult may sign up, even when the person who will play is minor... as far as allowed. Everquest II is Teens-rated for instance. Most of the game-companies have something like that. Morwen. |
Mortus Allen
Registered User
Join date: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 528
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05-15-2007 12:49
The irony is, there are plenty of web sites out there where you can access all sorts of pornography just by clicking a button that says "I am 18 or older", so it's really questionable whether any system is needed at all. Agreed, also anyone underage with access to a file sharing network or google can find plenty of porn that does not even require that much. Many of us have already given LL as much information as most "Responsible" porn sites ask for. We have already stated that we are 18 or older in the EULA, all of us posting here have at least given our credit card number. Guess what in the end regardless of what LL thinks the PARENTS should be taking reponsiblity from here on out. I have seen at least one post that clearly stated they were responsible parents and do not allow their underaged children access to any computer in the house that they can not supervise. This is the way it SHOULD be done, even if a parent allowed SUPERVISED access to the 18+ grid, and provide perental guidence on any imagery they may come across. Honestly I do not mind those under 18 being on the grid if they mearly partake in the social non-sexual aspects of SL. I would however submit an AR if I stubled across some one under age engaging in any sexual aspects of SL, though that is unlikely as my above disinterest in that aspect suggests. Guess what? I have one more point... A minor using their parents credit card without their express permittion is still credit card fraud, and last time I checked that was crime. |
Dakotaflyer Rau
German Rep0rt3r!
Join date: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 89
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05-15-2007 13:12
They were interviewing people once on the BBC and they talked to this one guy who said.
"I do not have the time to monitor everything my children do on the internet, that is why the government should be more strict on what is allowed." ![]() ![]() |
Oryx Tempel
Registered User
![]() Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
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05-15-2007 13:22
What's really ironic about this whole thing is that my adult friend has a 13 year old son who is interested in SL. I told her about the Teen Grid and she asked, "Why don't we just use my information for him and get him onto the adult grid? I'd rather my son be in the adult grid with a responsible chaperone than the teen grid with total strangers..."
I could only laugh. It's complete obvious that this age verification will never work, ESPECIALLY when parents are actively GIVING their consent to their kids. |
Livinda Goodliffe
Squeaky Wheel
Join date: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 215
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05-15-2007 13:40
Well, without age verification, your best swinger may be your 14 yr old daugher, and you would never know.
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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05-15-2007 13:47
Well, without age verification, your best swinger may be your 14 yr old daugher, and you would never know. With age verification the best swinger could be your 14 yr old son. If someone hasn't noticed their kid playing this game in their home then the same kid is likely to be able to get hold of the required info and remain a player. |