Shapes - worth it?

What I have learned in the past (almost 3) years in SL is that there are many hidden limitations with SL avatars that only manifest themselves through trial and error. And, if you want to push the envelope on those limits it takes a lot of effort in texturing, polymorphing, animation, and experimentation.

Judging from the previous responses it looks like we have a mixture of opinions that range from the "I won't touch the sliders with a 10' pole" to the "give me 10 minutes and I'll get it just right" crowd. I think a lot of the seasoned SL'ers have grown accustomed to the numerous limitations and imperfections in the SL avatar, while others, possibly new to SL, look at the SL avatar with eyes focused on far fewer RL limitations. Both those types of opinions can be rather misleading in and of themselves inside SL. One opinion leads to frustration, and the other to oversimplification. I know when I first joined SL back in early 2004 I thought my avatar looked like shit (and I still think it does). It was this initial repulsive reaction to the SL avatar that led me into skin design in SL. I just couldn't walk around looking the way I did that first day, and I had to do something about it at all costs. That was fine because it was a challenge, and if it were easy I would have quit SL 2 years ago. One thing I try never to do is look at the SL avatar with eyes glazed over, ignoring limitations or new possibilities.

I think shape and texture are inseparable. Really, shape, texture, and movement are inseparable, but shape and texture are more closely tied to one another here in SL because of our limitations. Some of my customers come to my shop from referrals by other shape artists. This is because the shape artist is advertising their shape with my skin. Their shape really isn't complete without the right skin. My skins really aren't complete without the right shape. I don't bother selling shapes with my skins because I don't need to when there are so many talented shape artists in SL. I'd rather put my full effort into texturing on well designed avatar shapes.

All we have are 1014 polygons and a 512x512 texture to reconstruct a face from. Still, the texture and slider combinations we have to work with are so astronomically large that it would probably take more time to count the zero places in that number than it would to actually create a likeness of someone. Here's a little Flash application I ran across that illustrates this point well. It has 1,665,914,415,580,800 possible texture combinations, all in black and white! That's far, far, far fewer than what we have to work with in SL, yet I have no doubt that someone will be able to create a facsimile of a famous RL face from this.

It sounds like you have perfect business opportunity there, then. Drag sliders with minimal effort, sell shapes for 500 L$ a pop. Quite more constructive than 'omg why would anyone want to pay so much' thread ;s

(there's a bit more to it than meets the eye, because SL avatars are blend between series of morphs rather than adjustment of underlying bone structure, and the mesh and UV map oddities ain't helping. But that takes a while and some more serious work to realize)

I LOATHE the shape sliders. While I can spend hours playing with the clothing sliders, the shape drives me nuts.

Wanting my av to look a little like the *real* me, I spent a short time finding all of the interesting shape stores, found the one I liked...the creator even customized it for free.

The cost was well below L$500 and saved what remains of my sanity

Shape: L$350
Skin: $L1100
Looking Maaaaaah-velous dahlink and not losing my mind messing with those @#*&! sliders...priceless.

Best,
~Ari

"More like 10 minutes.

I hand out shapes, as I made my own but ask people to 'tweak' them a little, personalize them. More to feel more at home than in a borrowed body."

i can see why they would be free then.

if you have the talent to do it yourself then please do. thats how i started with my own. some people are ready to play sl not tweak for hours to get the right look...plus when you add different skins the look changes. My shapes are perfected in that i try different skins and hair and really make sure there is an obvious "look" to each body shape.
so go ahead and check it out...KOSMIC BODY SHOP!

Dearly Darlings,

I was lucky to find Shelaura Toomba and Lars Bismark on day one. Not having the best eye sight in the world...and nothing in SL could ever help with that...these two kind souls help make me "Me" even down to my beauty mark. Just today some wonderful fellow who makes ice skates took the time to help me "tweek things" to make his skates right for me. I cannot imagine doing skins and shapes by myself. I'd look like a monster with out help.

Ever Yours,

Mrs. Showdog Tiger

To the original poster: Some people have more money than time. If it's not worth it to you, that's fine. But some folks would much rather pay for a shape that appeals to them than figure out all the intricacies of the sliders on their own.

I'm tempted, believe me.



Yeah, Poser is just the same.

Selling shapes for money reeks of selling ice to Eskimo's to me...but I guess if you can find a business niche and a market for it go for it, many people pay for things in RL that they could easily do themselves just to save time.

I'd never use someone else's shape whether I paid for it or not, I'd feel too much like I was a clone, the shape is that personal and important to my avie's individuality. Besides I think there is a certain jolie-laid quality to many personalised shapes that many mass market shapes with their button noses and pointy chins lack.

I went to the club in Amsterdam2 to hang out with my female alts sl sister - she was dancing. My new shape distracted one of the guys so much he didn't pay attention to the 3 girls on stage, so I left to not take their tips away.

Gonna make a copy to hand out to newbies, with slight tweaks.

To be honest with you, the skin is more important than the shape. I personally find it easy to make a nice shape with sliders, but a skin can completely alter the appearance of a shape by it's use of light and shade - particularly around the face and stomach. Also, a skin can make a female avatars breasts look completely different. My female av looks a lot bigger in the old chest region than she really is, because of the use of lighter colouring around the top of the breasts. Likewise, a good male skin with a six pack.

Don't waste your money on shapes - get a skin first and then tweak the shape to fit the skin.

This is just what I was saying.

I think many newbies are disappointed when they buy a shape and then realize it's not the only thing they need in order to look like the advertised picture - perhaps vendors should be showing off the shapes in different skins - but I guess shapes might not sell as well if you showed what they looked like in a newbie skin.

Yes, when I was a newbie I remember the pain of the realisation that all the RL caveats about clothes shopping apply to SL just the same (and yes, of course I already knew them, but they don't normally apply in online worlds/games)

Well, it's also quite easy to freeze a mixture of milk, water and sugar. Nonetheless people are willing to pay $2 for a cone of ice cream. L$500 is less than $2, and an attractive shape lasts much longer than an ice cream cone

The big downfall with purchased shapes (in my humble opinion) is that they are usually non-modify - well, they kinda have to be to stop them being copied easily, i suppose.

But that also means you are stuck EXACTLY like that.

I know a few people who have bought shapes they liked bar one little detail.

I personally bought a 'Johhny Depp' shape for my alt Anderson (yeah, I know, give me a break, lol). I do like the shape, though I have never thought the face looks like Johnny (and i did get the recommended skin and hair, I might add). The only thing that really bugs me is he looks so bloody miserable, and there is no way I can just tweak his mouth a little to improve it. I did contact the maker originally and ask about this, his reply was 'lots of people have bought it and like it just fine' - *sigh*

The longest I spent on a shape was probably 30 mins. Everyone makes it sound so hard, I can't imagine it being such unless you are trying to make it look like a real life person.. o____o;

Well... first you create a nice shape within 15-30 minutes, that's true. Then you invest in 10 different skins to test it with and tweak it for every popular skin on the market. You'll take screenshots and create vendor displays, as well as advertisements. When you finally have the product out for sale, you have likely spent 4 hours of work as well as a considerable amount of money. The sales product will keep you busy with customer service issues; "Why can't I change it", "How do I take it off", "Can't find it in my inventory", "I only received a box", "Can you please change the nose a little for me", "I bought it as a present but can't trade it" etc. I think L$500 or $2 is a fair price for this work

This is my observation too. I just wanted to impove my skin tone really. Make it so there's something to see between the mouth and nose for instance? I've been scooting through some of the freebies I've been collecting to experiment. One I tried seemed to have the right skin but great bushy eyebrows. Only thing I could do was remove the head texture, defeating the object of the exercise.
Aren't there any skins that let you keep your own facial features?

Doing 'shape' is a subtle art. I started as 'girl next door' and my sliders have only been moved slightly from the standard position yet I look quite different.

To retain an average shaped human being look you only need to deviate a little from the standard settings. Even to do a fat person one cannot wander too far before hands disappear inside hips when walking! But hey, I'm skinny so i don't have that problem!

Just seen some at L$600 on SLB.

Also, I think it's misleading to show shapes with classy skins that have a 3d effect due to subtle shading. One should show the buyer just what they get, i.e. the shape with a newbie skin.

It depends, since your customer may already have a custom skin purchased, and are interested in knowing how the shape would work with it. There's few shape makers who show their work with both the regular SL newbie skin and few popular 3rd party skins... which is perhaps most convenient arrangement for the would-be buyer.

Thanks for posting the face slider link. I have been trying to find something I can look at different face shapes to draw and study.
I tend to make my own skin textures but when it comes to the more complex avatar making things like mini av's I haven't figured it out yet but I am new.
I personally love do my own textures and using the sliders but I have paid 1000L for complex body shape and skin shape I don't know how to make which I have been studying with snaps shots to figure out how its made.
I still don't entirely get it yet.
I have paid for shape at least once before I understood slider.
I wonder if there was market for it but I wouldn't charge much for mine if I did.

I'd been thinking this also but then a couple of things occur to me.
Shape being somewhat easier to tweak with standard sliders than skins I'd imagine most folk would be going for a skin only or shape/skin combo? I may be wrong - does anybody get a shape for their skin?

And um .. forgot the other thing .. time for another coffee!

oh yes .. the marketing .. would anyone buy a Bentley in a matt emulsion? ... yeah, I know someone would, just for the crack

The analogy should be, if the car is advertised showing a nice paint job and you get it in matt emulsion, is that fair?

Yes Daisy, you're quite right. Rotten analogy. Sorry, puting seller's perspective, not yours.