Process Credit "In Progress"

What actions (preferably legal) can be taken on Linden Labs when they failed to transfer money from USD account to PayPal in 5 business days?
I believe that reference excuses about LL customer service overload, etc. are unacceptable as this is the matter of real money held by the private company (LL) on unwarranted basis.
Surely, it should be some US goverment regulations for such case.

this is the second thread where youve wanted to get everyone to tell you Linden Labs is breaking the law by not giving you your USD$ from your accont.

Dont ask us - most of us are not lawyers. Anyone who gives you advice wont be a lawyer. The Actual lawyers wont give you legal advice.

So ..maybe call a lawyer. Hopefully its enough money to make it worth her while.

Hello. I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on television......

1. I do not have intentions to force any opinion on the matter.
2. I would not personally ask you, Colette Meiji (and others like you), as instead of having open discussion and share the knowledge, you have chosen to count thread numbers and post non-informative response.

Regards,

http://www.getafirstlife.com/

Collette wasn't being harsh, she was right. No one here can give you legal advice.

But I would ask first, did you take this into consideration:


Five days never means five days and it's not just LL, it's true of any banking you do anywhere.

In other words, if you request a paypal payment on tuesday, your five days are counted as... wed, thurs, fri, mon, tues. You ignore Saturday and Sunday and you count the final tuesday as a full day, so the idea is to expect the payment on that following wednesday and just be extra happy if it happens to come earlier than that. So you're actually looking at 8 days being reasonable. Around day 9 is when you get to call and gripe at them.

If you request a payment by check it's much longer, 15 business days, ignoring all weekends and holidays. So that payment you asked for on Tuesday, actually comes sometime within the next 22 days.

I know the feeling though, I get annoyed around day 17 and 18 too. ( I don't use paypal) But that's the way it works.

I appreciate your ability to speak for everybody, but I did not ask for a legal advice.


I am not looking.. but you feel free to bend over LL.

I appreciate if you post informative resposes about what can be done with numerous cases when LL transfers exceed 5 business days.

Regards,

http://www.getafirstlife.com

Here's a little shocking info for ya:

"1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.

You acknowledge that the Service presently includes a component of in-world fictional currency ("Currency" or "Linden Dollars" or "L$", which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of our product when, as, and if allowed by Linden Lab. Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Linden Dollars represent a limited license right governed solely under the terms of this Agreement, and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time. You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, in any general or specific case, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right.

1.5 Second Life offers an exchange, called LindeX, for the trading of Linden Dollars, which uses the terms "buy" and "sell" to indicate the transfer of license rights to use Linden Dollars. Use and regulation of LindeX is at Linden Lab's sole discretion.

The Service currently includes a component called "Currency Exchange" or "LindeX," which refers to an aspect of the Service through which Linden Lab administers transactions among users for the purchase and sale of the licensed right to use Currency. Notwithstanding any other language or context to the contrary, as used in this Agreement and throughout the Service in the context of Currency transfer: (a) the term "sell" means "to transfer for consideration to another user the licensed right to use Currency in accordance with the Terms of Service," (b) the term "buy" means "to receive for consideration from another user the licensed right to use Currency in accordance with the Terms of Service," (c) the terms "buyer," "seller", "sale" and "purchase" and similar terms have corresponding meanings to the root terms "buy" and "sell," (d) "sell order" and similar terms mean a request from a user to Linden Lab to list Currency for sale on the Currency Exchange at a requested sale price, and "buy order" and similar terms mean a request from a user for Linden Lab to match open sale listings with a requested purchase price and facilitate completion of the sale of Currency.

You agree and acknowledge that Linden Lab may deny any sell order or buy order individually or with respect to general volume or price limitations set by Linden Lab for any reason. Linden Lab may limit sellers or buyers to any group of users at any time. Linden Lab may halt, suspend, discontinue, or reverse any Currency Exchange transaction (whether proposed, pending or past) in cases of actual or suspected fraud, violations of other laws or regulations, or deliberate disruptions to or interference with the Service."




It seems that Linden Labs is not liable even if they give you no money back, let alone if not in the time frame advertised.

Thanks for this quotation, Uvas.

I am aware of these conditions off LL, however
I could not find any references in TOS and other LL documents on the site that
clarify LL obligations of return USD _already_ converted from linden dollars.
Also, anyone can deposit USD to LL account, but what is the fate of these money (not converted to linden dollars)? What LL conditions silently attached to USD account?
I live in civilized society (not US) where if you deposit money to somebody's account, you can expect return of the balance in reasonable time; for financial institutions it does not exceed 5 business days.

Oh really?

You are asking for legal advice.

Sue them. You can get millions and millions from LL because you didn't get your money on time.

It is obvious that you are looking for that answer, but really, why ask a question that can't be answered with any real meaning. If you really want to know what your legal options are, talk to a lawyer. Also, being as LL is not a bank I don't think that there are really any federal oversight that I know of. But then what do I know, I am not a lawyer.

I think it's also been pointed out several times that the delay in Paypal transfers also adds a layer of security against your account being hacked. Your username is public, so the ONLY thing protecting your L$ and USD being held by LL is a single password.

With such minimal security protecting your funds, I'm glad to know that if someone managed to access my account and clean it out, at least there's a possibility that the transfer to Paypal might be delayed long enough for LL to stop it and investigate.

(Now, whether that's the actual _reason_ for the delay, or just a potentially helpful benefit, I have no idea.)

I also agree with the others that asking "What actions (preferably legal) can be taken on Linden Labs?" should be a question directed to your lawyer.

Unauthorized access of personal accounts in civilized countries (not US) is a criminal act, that is dealt with by goverment authorities.
Your "logic" is completely flawed. Would you agree that your empoyer withhold your salary (by chance if you employed) for undefined period of time on the basis that the streets are not safe to walk; or supermarket don't give a change on the basis that you can use your money for fraudlent activities?

Regards,

http://www.getafirstlife.com

"Linden Dollars represent a limited license right governed solely under the terms of this Agreement, and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time."

The number of dollars you have from converted lindens is basically meaningless, legally it seems.

Quantum Hax,

Have a nice life. Good luck.

That's it.

Also, as I remember conditions, USD deposited to your account are considered as a separate money for advance payment of LL "services" and LL are not obliged to refund them.

It is amazing to see number of naive people here who belive that linden dollars have intrinsic value and SL has real economy.

Regards,

http://www.getafirstlife.com

No idea what the word "intristic’ means, in fact I don’t think the word exists, but I guess you are implying that the L$ has no real value and that SL has no real economy. To be blunt, you don’t know what you are talking about. I have had a positive cash flow within SL from pretty much day one. I have cleared thousands of pounds worth of debt and now use my monthly profits to pay my mortgage, go on holiday etc. The economy in SL is entirely real, I’m sure that Anshe and the people she employs in RL on a full time basis can confirm this. I make this claim regardless of the evidence provided earlier in the thread regarding LL’s ownership and control of the L$.

An economy can be most simply defined as a system of production, distribution and consumption. I produce content, I distribute the content, other players consume that content and pay me for the privilege. There is the Economy. Just because LL has the right to completely devalue the L$ to the point of non existence doesn’t mean I am not functioning within a working economy, it is just an extremely risky and unregulated economy.

While it's true that I can't use Lindens to buy anything in the real world, I also couldn't use Japanese Yen in my part of the world without converting it to USD first. Does that make Yen valueless?

Actually, very little of the currency we have in RL has much intrinsic value either. It's worth what it's worth because we (as a whole) agree that it is, but it's really only paper and/or base metal with pretty symbols after all.

That may be true of the L$ however once you have sold your Lindens for real US dollars in Lindex they have a legal responsibility to handle your money properly and to make sure you receive it.

Yes, that would make sense.

It seems a bit of a grey area to me...are dollars in my game account "real" dollars? Or are they dollars only after they exchanged into my paypal account or a check is mailed?

Exactly this question I was asking, and you answered this question.
"USD" dollars on your LL account are not USD dollars of the real life, because LL
have no obligations whatsoever to return them to you.
SL apologetics experience of converting LL USD dollars into real money entirely depends on LL mercy. Let me remind you, that Anshe Chung account was banned a year ago (and thus unaccessable for transferting out any money, real or unreal) while she had 50K+ USD positive balance against LL.

Regards,

http://www.getafirstlife.com

Quantum -

If you have an ulterior motive in your posts - I think you should just spell it out. Possible attempts sarcasm or satire arent surviving the language barrier if any.

Your whole "Linden Labs owes me money whats my legal recourse?" is a waste of time. Wait .. Ill make it more clear A WASTE OF TIME.

In the United States when people owe you real US dollars, You cant just call up the police and get them.

Im talking legitimate, Mr X owes me $2000 and I need to collect. I have a paper where he agrees to pay me $2000. The police wont do anything. My only recourse is to SUE Mr X if he wont pay.

So it doesnt even matter if you play games with whats in your account, and do Linden dollars have value.

Becuase the method to get money from people who owe you it and wont pay in the US is to send threats to sue, and eventually sue. And after you win? Your ability to collect is also limited.


As for not asking for legal advice - Try not asking your question in this format -

In the US - If your paycheck is witheld you also cant call the police. You have to sue your employer.

Before you go on again about the US not being civilized. Please look up civilized in a decent dictionary. Its obviously civilized. The US just doesnt have a system of guarantees/debts/payments that you approve of.

I do not know where it is your from, but the perfect Society hasnt been created yet.

Your entire thread seems a be Trolling.

And I predict its going to be locked.

Why bother to ask a question in this forum if you shoot down every reply with a very rude reply of your own? A lot of the answers you are going to get regarding many topics on these forums are going to be people making sure you didnt 'miss a step' along the way. Why is that? Well, to be blunt, none know exactly what goes on in the minds of the Lindens. We can give suggestions (like wait 9 days instead of 5) we can point out logic (flawed or not) and we can hand out advice from our own knowledge or experiences. Lawyers or not, no one should be handing out legal advice without knowing FULL details of what has happened which is why most ask a lot of questions, as your first post is rather vague at best.


Did you check possibly with paypal to make sure you havent hit any of your limits IF you have one? Some paypal accounts have limits on how much money they may receive or spend in a certain month. How often, if at all, have you tried contacting the lindens? Persistance often times pays off. Exactly *how long* has your transaction been in progress? Was all of the information in your account current and accurate? (As required).

Basically all we can do here is help make sure you have done each and every step as cleanly as possible...beyond that, call yer lawyer who is going to ask you the same questions, only they get paid an hourly rate.

On a side note, I put in a transfer request last Friday (the 16th) and got it this last Tuesday (the 27th) so from my perspective there is an error along the way for your particular transaction. It does NOT mean that LL is being spiteful and cruely keeping your funds from you on purpose. I dont see malicous intent and as such thrusting yourself into seeking legal advice *could* be premature.

Since, according to the Original Poster - I have no first life, I decided not to disappoint and went through his entire 24 post count on the forums.

Nearly all of them are directly related to this issue. Its curious to me why Quantum you have such an issue with Linden Labs finiancial policy, when so many of us who make a profit in Second Life do not.

Sure, many have grumbled it takes longer than it should. But the only one I can see who is looking for them to be bound by legal constraints is you.

I do not think Linden Labs has a bad reputation of PAYING people their US dollars out of their accounts.

They do have a decreasing reputation for doing things in a timely matter, but thats across the board- for everything. It seems to me they may be understaffed.

I am pretty sure those business days they list under process credit - are the days they use to keep track of how long it should take. Basically Internal deadline. Instead of 5 they probably could have put 10, 20 or 30 in its place.

Ill go get a life or something now.

Not sure where to start, hmmmm ...

Maybe I can find a computer game in a foreign country that will let me carry an account balance and complain they cant get me my cash-out funds as fast as my local bank.

Hi, Quantum Hax!

How about everyone who HAS paypal'ed money from 2nd life to paypal let us know how long it took you

I did it on the 22'nd and its still pending....