Last thread, last post on this.

While I agree with Desmond's plea for better behavior, I have too dim a view of human nature to think it will work without heavy moderation. The moderator sets the tone for a forum, they are the behavioral gatekeeper. If moderators allow people to act like asses, they will act like asses. Once that behavior tone has been "allowed" it becomes common across people who have a loose acquaintance with manners and adult behavior. If Joe Troll is allowed to act like a jerk, three other people are going to lower their tone and respond in kind. Look up the "broken window theory" for more detail. Bad behavior follows bad behavior.

It isn't enough to exhort people to act like adults, the moderation has to re-enforce the behavior. This, of course, results in people prone to being jerks screeching about being oppressed and silenced even though it isn't their ideas that are being silenced, it is the way they've chosen to convey the idea. It is pretty rare that ideas presented in an adult and reasonable manner get silenced.

Lastly, this is the intertubes. It is anonymous.




There are predictable behaviors under the cloak of anonymity. People tend to follow the herd, and if the herd tends to communicate with all the clarity and class of YouTube comments, you get a nice glimpse of the bottom half of human behavior. If LL finds their forums to be an embarrassment, it is their own fault for failing to moderate and control the dialog.

I'm sorry, I didnt realise that the word "hysterics" had become so politicised.

Either way, I was actually calling the overall response to this issue "hysterical", not your post specifically.

The thing is, it isn't actually the cause I have a problem with. If you guys all love this place so much and think you're being unfairly treated then more power to your elbow.

It's the sad, depressing, predictable ineffectuality of your response to the issue that makes me want to poke you all with a big stick.

You know what? I'll agree with you on most of that. But we can be acne ridden teenagers with angst in SL. ooops...only if you make us 19.

Yes, there was a level of silliness (and shouldn't there be, in your second life?)....and less than adult behavior (raises hand - guilty).....but I dare you to find a message board or forum where that is absent, unless it's moderated to a sterile degree, which does not allow for intense discussion or contradictory viewpoints....and extreme passion. And the concept of expressing yourself with few constraints, and with passion, seems to be promoted in the SL venue so that concept would carry through to the discussion board>
And there were days when I would agree that it was a bunch of nonsense, and not a good representation of the population of inworld SL.

However....with it's demise....as one of the people who use it as a reference tool for information, to pass on to those inworld, who do not frequent the forum.....am finding out very clearly, this week....that it is an extremely valuable resource. And it was easy to use.

When I'm inworld, and someone has a question about ANYTHING....which I can't answer, and that's often, as I chat with people in the store all night....I can type in a word or two words, and voila! There is a whole thread which deals specifically with their question, and is answered by very knowledgeable people....many, and not just a few.

There are gems of information here, within the "cruft".....and even the cruft is useful for some people. A lot of the cruft involves immersion within SL, and how people go about using their different personas, and all the nuances of living in a virtual world. Stuff that can't be answered by one person inworld, as there are so many different viewpoints as to how to go about the concepts....you really need to study it from all angles. And you got that here.

A lot of this information will be out of date in a few months. I can keep pulling it up for people, very easily....(can't do that with the blog at all)....for about 60 days....but after that, a lot of the info will be worthless. Do you have a suggestion on where to go for that next?

"Hysterics" has always been gendered and political: the term is derived from the Greek "hysterikos," meaning "from the womb." It's actually only fairly recently that the word could be applied to both genders, and even now, when applied to a man, it often contains the subtext of "effeminacy."

Incidentally, you have at least relieved me of the slight suspicion I had that you were one of Pep's alts: he is very aware of how gendered the term is, and uses it fluently and deliberately for precisely that reason.


And it is at this point, where you retreat to unfounded characterizations rather than actually addressing what it is about my argument that you find "ineffectual," that we bring this particular discussion to a close.

"Hysterics" has always been gendered and political: the term is derived from the Greek "hysterikos," meaning "from the womb." It's actually only fairly recently that the word could be applied to both genders, and even now, when applied to a man, it often contains the subtext of "effeminacy."

Incidentally, you have at least relieved me of the slight suspicion I had that you were one of Pep's alts: he is very aware of how gendered the term is, and uses it fluently and deliberately for precisely that reason.


And it is at this point, where you retreat to unfounded characterizations rather than actually addressing what it is about my argument that you find "ineffectual," that we bring this particular discussion to a close.

Possibly, you might consider taking it up again on SL Answers however: they seem not to want or require sustained discussions there.

"Hysterics" has always been gendered and political: the term is derived from the Greek "hysterikos," meaning "from the womb." It's actually only fairly recently that the word could be applied to both genders, and even now, when applied to a man, it often contains the subtext of "effeminacy."

Incidentally, you have at least relieved me of the slight suspicion I had that you were one of Pep's alts: he is very aware of how gendered the term is, and uses it fluently and deliberately for precisely that reason.


And it is at this point, where you retreat to unfounded characterizations rather than actually addressing what it is about my argument that you find "ineffectual," that we bring this particular discussion to a close.s

Possibly, you might consider taking it up again on SL Answers however: they seem not to either require or want sustained discussions there.

Deja Vu X 3

I'm getting the feeling that my sentence structure must be abominable.

For the second time Scylla, I was using "you" in the plural rather than specifically calling you (Scylla) ineffectual.

Either way, I think you're right. I've had my little say and that was all I meant to have.

Fair enough, Stephen. If I have jumped to conclusions by taking your responses too personally, I apologize.

You must be a riot at parties.

I'm glad you kept posting. You seem quite different from the impression your first posts gave.

I can agree that our response is ineffective and could even be called whiny, but what else can we do? The situation is almost an epitome of futility. We still don't even know what sort of death we'll die - in the sense that the forum-replacement-to-come is unknown. We can *guess* what it will be, and the best guess is something awful, but in any case it's a fait accompli.

Aside from the fact that the announcement of the kill date turns this forum into a lame duck, it also underlines the absence of the Lindens here. If they ever cared about this forum before, they certainly don't now.

It's rather like knowing that Nero will set fire to Rome in a few days, and being promised a house in a new, unnamed city if we just stay and behave and trust.

Ah, Stephen, you hit one of Scylla's many sore spots.

Pep (The "hysterical female" weakness I meant, but her paranoia magnified her response, of course.)

As far as I know, we are not only customers, but also the main content and creators and "the face" of Second Life and even as passive (non-building) users, people are also more than customers, because they are the motor of the machine, no matter if they are creators or explorers or whatever.

The plywood-cube and the grid itself is nothing without us.

It is possible that LL hasn't internalized this with the necessary seriousness along the years, but it is a fact.

Same with these forums here: millions of developements inworld - means social developements and/or designs and architectures (in the widest meanings of the terms) - wouldn't exist without these forums plus the results as personal and collaborative success.

Additional to this comes the interpersonal value of the forums which were able to create spontaneous communities of otherwise more decentralized acting customers on a case by case base, especially when it was necessary to discuss major decisions made by the Lab.

if you were absent while all these processes and if you didn't join the communit(ies) while we did lobbying our interests, is sure not the problem of the forums, nor ours.

And: who's not talking in an adult way of communication, we do know very well: it is regularly the Lab which "communicates" as if we wouldn't have all bars at the fence.

We are the people which have to remind them on a daily base, to talk serious and honest and in an adult way of communication with their customer base - and this we do!

Well this resident is posting an answer to Desmond's thoughtful post. So it is on topic for this forum. Oh! The answer? I nearly forgot that. Yes! I for one will brave whatever means of communication LL decide to allow us.

rather than waste my time with the trolling, my response is strictly about Desmond's OP.

I disagree with some of the finer points you made, but as a whole vehicle I agree... sound and fury alone will accomplish nothing in this case... whether we ultimately make our choices for good or bad reasons, we may as well do it with some dignity and forethought for our friends. You've got my support for whatever that means.

For the trolls, that well mannered and reasoned thoughtfulness is why people respect Desmond. The fact that he does it while being one the driving forces behind a large chunk of some of SL's most notable content, a successful business person, and supports of both of those things makes him a rare breed. Very few here can make the same claims.

This is badly flawed logic.

It depends upon the unspoken premise that "all businesses" CORRECTLY assess the value their customers represent to the enterprise.

This premise is false, as is shown by the millions of business enterprises that have failed throughout human history.

Of those millions, you cannot assume that all correctly assessed the value of their customers. It is likely that many did not correctly assess the value of their customers. Some will have over-valued some segments and under-valued others; some will have misunderstood, at a fundamental level, the best and the possible applications of their product, and thus have failed to target a customer base that had the potential to save the business enterprise; some will have been blinded by short-term goals (such as flashy acquisitions and other 'look good on paper' projects) that actually contributed less to their bottom lines than did their actual, neglected customers.

You have no basis for assuming that LL has correctly assessed the value of its committed customers (who are the subset of all SL customers who find community in the Forums).

The race is on!

Come on Brenda....another 96 posts in 4 days and you'll have a round number of 25,000 Posts and take the title of "Queen of SL forums" A crown that can never be relinquished!



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