Last thread, last post on this.

It seems that yes, this forum is going to go away.

This isn't the course that many of us would have chosen. Maybe there are reasons, though it's very hard to see that from here. Which is troubling.

It is my business to understand the effects of things.

That's a seemingly soft, but big statement.

Second Life isn't my only income, but it's significant. A miscalculation is felt it in a way that few others here feel it: financially, at home. It is my business, therefore, more than most everyone else... to know what I'm talking about.

Due to the nature of things, like it or not there are a lot of secrets to keep. It would be unethical, for instance, to discuss Community Gateway statistics in detail, which is why I never do. It wouldn't be right if I shared too much about Caledon residents either; their data is not to be scraped and repackaged to promote agendas.

With that kind of background, I'd like to make one last gentle, if unsupported comment with regard to forums, as follows.

* * * * *

These forums, and in particular, open discussion forums, are critically important. They are the first stop, that first hole in the fence that allows people to stop wandering alone in a bleak, tawdry, largely upopulated wasteland, and discover grid society. A welcome area of the mind, so to speak, putting even the best gateways to shame. It doesn't have to be pretty, or controlled. Even a petty argument between two merchants in a crowded forum speaks of life, and commerce, and society.

We have a chance. I've gently asked for the one thing that makes all the difference here: the ability to speak freely, as adults. It seems that they may be on the verge of allowing that, for the first time in years.

Provided there is any kind of comprehensibility whatsoever, in this new format... if there's an open, honest venue, I shall use it, as promised. If not, I won't be there, as promised.

To each one of you, I would like to ask you to step up to this same commitment. Not plead or command or trick anyone or promise anything... but simply ask you to be on board with this.

In more detail, it would be as follows.

First, to not let irrelevant or simply 'merely annoying' changes deter you. Yes, I don't much like the ah... whatever that software it is, that they are using. But I'm not about to throw all the rest of you away, because there's no Preview button or something.

It's not about the Preview button, or forum colors. It's about voices, and people. True, a major change, like the incomprehensible blog threading can still render our voices fairly mute. If that's the case I can't fault anyone for their reaction. But minor stuff: no. Rise above.

Second... given adult treatment, such as being allowed our voices again with a general discussion area... let's act as adults. We haven't been treated as adults for years; in fact, this very post is a violation of the 'purpose' of Resident Answers. I very much don't appreciate that by all posted guidelines, I should get a wrist slap for it. Also the converse ~ if there is no area where we can speak as adults... don't violate their rules. Simply go elsewhere to speak freely. That will speak volumes in and of itself.

Finally, should we find a rose in this wasteland, and this new thing actually allows our free voices, I'm not saying: never complain. The whole point is to speak our minds. But there's a difference.

Imagine fifty or 100 posts saying: I don't agree with issue X, let's open a discussion about issue X. And nothing more, and with solidarity. Short, clear posts carry a lot of power; walls of text like this one, not so much. It's a long time before anyone is willing to wade through walls of text; if you write one, it had best be civil, clear, actionable and to the point. Don't repeat yourself much, either. Value your own words; let others pick up on that.

* * * * *

Each one of your voices, each one of you, are worth more than 'type of forum software.' Also, each one of you are worthy of adult treatment. Including, in fact, when possibly someone isn't acting that way. Adults behaving badly can face adult consequences.

That is not to say I support inworld consequences as the result of forum missteps. I absolutely don't; that's another issue entirely, again far beyond the pale. But if we must be so harsh to one another, as I have seen daily... yes, I think there needs to be consequence attached to that. I enjoy cutting satire far more than most of you, but at the same time can appreciate that it isn't everyone's cup of tea. We need to respect that. If you need to be generally uncivil, start a blog or something.

* * * * *

In any case... should things turn out badly, I won't break the rules with my free discourse of ideas, meaning that I hope to see all of you elsewhere. Which would be very sad. To leave on a good note, I shall not post or reply on these vbulletin forums ever again, or respond to PM's.

Let's hope for the best, be true to our convictions and be the best people we can be.

Especially to each other.

Desmond Shang, Guvnah
Independent State of Caledon

i <3 u, Des. not only are you a dear man and trustworthy friend, you always post such profound and informative thoughts.

this, this crazy blog format is a deal breaker for me. i have already pledged to try out whatever they serve up to us. i am very liquid-minded when it comes to change. i relish it, usually. and i am willing to be open minded about the "little things". but if it is wholly unnavigable like the blog thingy now, i won't waste my time. it's far too ridiculous to try and follow a thread longer than 5-10 posts.

i'll be poking at you inworld soon. in the interim, i offer my very best *hugs*

Well said, Des. I'm in and oh IBTL [kidding]

I am still here, been here too long to abandon now, so I will go on to the next thing, whatever shape it takes.

I will think of your words Desmond, before I hit 'Enter'. Every time. I promise.

Thank you, for saying whatever you said, doing whatever you did, to whomever you said it




Imogen

xx

To some these issues are a dealbreaker, having seen similar complaints when a forum I use at work went to the Jive platform and knowing that people didn't migrate across, it is indeed too much for some.

However I can work around the usability issues, I don't blame those who don't want to, after all usability is a pretty key ingredient, I couldn't use XStreet for a few days when they made some changes there and I mean I simply couldn't use the place, the colour scheme hurt my eyes to such an extent it was impossible, that's something to really complain about...I probably did!

However the general sort of discussion that resident answers provides is extremely important, and this is something the Lindens don't seem to understand, I've tried both gentle and not so gentle pushing to try and get this point across but there's a brick wall somewhere, admittedly it has shown signs of not being indestructable from one or two comments, but it does feel like pulling teeth trying to point out the obvious.

To the first paragraph quoted: well-put. You've made the connection between retention---something the Lindens have repeatedly said they DO care about---and open discussion forums very clear. It's something that ought to be obvious to LL, but has not been. I hope that your eloquence will influence the LL decision-makers to give fresh consideration to this very important link.

To the second paragraph quoted: again, this points up a principle that could lead LL to greater financial success: treat customers like adults and you will reap not only increased loyalty (leading to spending) but much better word-of-mouth than you currently enjoy.

We ARE capable of clear-eyed appreciation for being treated as adults. We ARE capable of declining to behave in such a way that we can be dismissed as Flamers or Creators of Cruft (!).


I'm sorry that you've decided not to post in the remaining days, but do appreciate that by making that choice you make a valuable point. Thanks for what you're doing---it has the potential to make a difference that will enhance not only Resident experience but Linden Lab prosperity and growth.

I will, as suggested, try the new forums.

If Second Life is to continue, and not be eclipsed by the new wave of VWs on the horizon, it will be because of the community that we have built, the people that we have connected to.

I do feel that Des is in a large degree responsible for my continued use of SL, as Caledon and the people I have met there finally got be past the "Isn't this 3D thing cool" to becoming a member of an SL community. Finding these forums just gave me a wider community to interact with, and I would like to continue to do so.

It is not the forum or software that matters, but the people. And so I will move with the times, and if I find that I can not freely exchange ideas in the new forum, only then will I leave. I do hope to speak with all of you again, in this forum or the next, or inworld. I'll keep my fingers crossed, and hope for the best.

I wish the best to all of you, no matter what decision you make, and hope that this is just a change, like a caterpillar becoming a butterfly, and not an end.

Thanks once again for the wise words...Guvnah

I will be taking your post under serious consideration.

A year ago it was nearly inconceivable that Linden Lab would end this forum. Now it goes down a little easier. The blorum will suffice - it is better than nothing.

Add the Second Life Blog announcements to your Avatars United feed:



Pay attention, respond ON TOPIC and move onto to the future. We are going to have to hold onto this cat's tail that is Linden Lab while M linden takes the company in all sort of different directions until he feels he has monetized his new company efficiently to make his over-seers happy.

Get ready for a bumpy ride.

I had similar (naive?) sentiments and hopes about the change of "software" for the Xstreet forums. I watched a fun, friendly, comfortable community shrink by attrition to a snarlfest. Those that are stuck in anger at LL remain and vent. Those who grieved and moved on with their lives First and Second, moved on to other venues. I will give the coming flogrums a shot, but I am putting down roots at SLUniverse. I hope to see some of you there.

Pretty simple for me. I'm not a builder, scripter, creator, land owner, business owner or a geek of any degree. Banter and discussion is all I used this forum for. It is the only thing that would get me to a new offering. If the discussion ain't startin, I ain't departin.

/me makes no promises but will try.

That said, I think they should be called idiots when they do stupid things. I'm growing pretty tired of the lame excuses and BS from LL. To have that place in the state it's in now and declare the forums are about to be shot.. That would get me fired from my RL job. I suspect it would get most people fired.

/me grumbles a bit more then steps off her soap box.

Well said.

Oh and a quick bit of research shows that there are addons to vbulletin to make use of OpenID, so there goes that excuse

Thankyou Des. You've made me think.
I'll take a stab at it, because I like to help with what little I can, and because I don't want to lose an opportunity to meet people/keep in touch when I can try to stick with it.
I'll still be at SCII, but I'll try to stick around. Hopefully they'll fix it enough that people will be able to cope.




THIS.

I promise to try to not get in the way or to make it not work.

And I promise to not resent what they've done and how they've done it.

Been over there. Been trying to give gentle input. I will be interested to see what they come up with on the 9th.

I promise to give it a try and keep and open mind in all matters, Des.

Thanks for the years of insightful writings you have shared with us.


.

To be blunt, we've been treated with nothing better then veiled contempt through the whole process.


Do you really believe that? Even if they do offer that, how free will it really be with the spectre of Blue and Lexie there to stomp on anyone who gets out of line?

I'll think about what you've written between now and the 9th, but to be perfectly honest, I feel angry and insulted by the Lindens.

If we have a statesman of the grid, it would be Des. I've believed that for a long time, and that "As goes Des, so goes the grid." No one offers better thought out, more reasonable posts.

Des is just the sort of user the Lindens want to keep around. Yet, (perhaps this is my imagination.) Lately, I've seem to sense a bit of uncertainty in his posts.

If there is only one post the Lindens pay any attention to during these final days of this forum, it should be the one that started this thread. Pay heed M. A grid without Caledon would not be Second Life in my eyes.

I really can't reconcile that they have given a drop dead date for this place, but are seemingly in Chinese Firedrill mode on the replacement. It is either sheer, stunning incompetence on a Hooverian level, or a blatant, cynical act to give the people another smackdown. Either way, it really is hard to have any trust or sense of an open mind.

I hope Lindens are following this and, in particular, notice the way people react to a request from Des to help make things work and the way people react to a request from LL to make things work.

If you are listening LL, it's not because we hate SL or are "just residents complaining, again" it's because Desmond has never given us a reason, let alone many reasons, to not trust him.

I will re-read Des' post (when I have a bit less alcohol in my blood stream) and make an honest effort to do as he politely asks. He's always been on the up-and-up and tried to help people here. THIS is the kind of person that deserves our support, IMO.

edit: er.. that's not making any comment about you, Brenda. You said pretty much what I've been thinking.

If it looks like a forum, feels like a forum and acts like a forum, then I can make the change. However, there is something about the blog-ware they use that causes my computer to pause every few seconds. I can watch it on my process list, IE will spike to 50% CPU cycles, and nothing moves during the spike. No scrolling, page changing, etc. If the new forum behaves that way, forget it. Too annoying. It happens nowhere else but the official blogs, but it is a deal breaker. I don't even lurk there, much less post.

Come the 9th I will be forum-less most likely. I have looked at others, nothing feels right at the moment. It saddens me. Xstreet forums used to be my first stop after email every morning with my cup of coffee, then RA. Xstreet got the axe. Then RA first stop every morning after email, with my cup of coffee. Reckon it'll soon be email and coffee, and further cut-off from SL-related social engagement. I am not a big poster, but I like to think I have offered some help and maybe an alternate opinion here and there, but for me the XStreet and RA fora provided a pulse check on the heart beat of SL.

Nothing left to say...

No worry. I agree with you.

< rant deleted >

Thought again already. OK, Des, I'll try.

But only because of the ducks.
.

You can't help wondering how long, and how many person-hours, it took for LL to find a forum software that would meet those specifications.



edit: Okay, Scylla, I'll concede that this one is cynical.