There was an unanswered resident answer...

We use the tools we have been given. I didn't resurrect this thread nor have I commented on it's topic in this thread. My comments were about the debate over the debate.

I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to this - this thread is going to be locked soon, and rightly so, and I'm not going to change anyones mind, but what the heck, I'm bored.

I'm not even going to bother dissecting the OPs argument bit by bit. I've read it, virtually word for word, time and time again on other forums and heard it in real life, albeit normally broken up into chunks. Although there are bits and pieces of debatable subject matter in there, most if it is either downright arrogantly insulting or borderline sophistic rhetoric.

Trust me when I say that as a gay man who is both of a religious nature and attending a modern American university, I've heard basically every argument on both sides of the debate that there is to make. I just wanted to say a couple things.

Call me mentally ill if you like - it wouldn't be the first time. I've been told that helpfully enough by people concerning my sexuality too, I really don't care. But perhaps its fitting, because both are a lot alike... Neither my sexuality nor my spirituality are a conscious choice, and neither are going to be changed by extremists telling me that its harmful, self-destructive behavior.

You assume much about me that you have no business assuming simply because I happen to having a faith with an Abrahamic flavor.

My religion doesn't "hold me back". It doesn't limit me. It doesn't prevent me from appreciating or understanding myself, others, human life in general, or whatever nonsense you care to throw at me. And yes, I know you said it limits society... but society is made up of the individuals, and I'm hardly unique.

I was not born in an "abusive" household as you seem to term it, and frankly I find that term beyond insulting, just as I have every time I've heard some overly "enlightened" individual try to ram it down my throat. My parents were both deeply spiritual, but religion was never a subject discussed unless I brought it up. We never attended church, there were no crucifixes or menorah on display, prayers were not said before meals, etc. My faith is my own, and quite different from my parents, but neither my parents nor I think less of the other because of that. I grew up agnostic and was well and truly atheist during most of highschool. But I thought I was "straight" then too, and that didn't turn out to be right either.

Yes, there are exceptions. There are people so blinded by their faith that they devalue the life of anyone that disagrees with them.

But guess what? Thats true of atheists too. The communists thought millions upon millions of deaths were acceptable to promote their ideals. Hardcore animal rights and environmentalist groups - which count atheists among their ranks - frequently endanger human life to further their goal, be it by driving nails into trees lumberjacks are cutting or setting fire to animal testing labs. And as many wars have been about property rights, resources, or personal vendettas as have been about religion, whatever the window dressings may be.

People suck. Lots and lots of people suck. Religious people, atheistic people, it doesn't matter. But lots and lots of both are pretty awesome. It's a shame that the majority of each group finds it trendy to try to minimize and ridicule the other by assigning them the motives and beliefs of their most extreme members, and never bother to try to learn different - or believe different, if they do find out.

There. I'm done.

When it comes to bullsh*t, big-time, major league bullsh*t, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullsh*t story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullsh*t story. Holy Sh*t!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is f*cked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of sh*t you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever f*ck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a sh*t. Doesn't give a sh*t, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a sh*t, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to f*ck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the f*ck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't f*ck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that c*cks*cker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!

Try coming up with your own opinion next time.

And quoting Hitler in a debate on religion? /Classy/.

i agree. no Diety has been villified more that God.

I've noticed quite a few "copy/paste" style responses in these sort of debates... it's at least good practice to reference the source.

Broccoli

My opinion is posted a few posts up. As for qouting Hitler..well even a retarded squirel finds a nut from time to time.

"you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims"

Government wins this one hands down.

No no, I like it. It seems quite fitting, given that, as Colette pointed out, the logical outcome of that way of thinking is tyrannical enforcement of religious ideology, something Hitler was quite familiar with.

Thread is now Godwined, we can all leave.

Lowen Raymaker:

Religion: 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

Deity:1. a god or goddess.
2. divine character or nature, esp. that of the Supreme Being; divinity.
3. the estate or rank of a god: The king attained deity after his death.
4. a person or thing revered as a god or goddess: a society in which money is the only deity.
5. the Deity, God; Supreme Being.

two totally different concepts, yet they are always made ONE, especially when God is mentioned. Religion is a Belief. God is a Diety. there are many religions based around God, and His Son Jesus, but God is not a religion, He is a Diety. just thought you'd like to know that. And for the record, no Diety has ever been more villified that God, except maybe His son.

Pity, I was quite enjoying the entertainment of people trying to disprove the existance of something that, by definition, they agree exists by the fact that they are trying to disprove it in the first place.

Broccoli

Thread needs closing, to be honest.

No, he'd not like to know that, because understanding that would require him to literally break from his entire life.

Actually, the thread needs to have never been started, but baring the invention of a time machine, yes, I agree.

But, until then, it can be a spot of fun.

Nah, THAT would be delusional!

I think this thread was cuased by "Last word" syndrome is all.

There will be NO religious dissent! How dare I even think it.

Why is it that people try to get 'In Before The Lock' ?Is it like doing something brave on the forums? Like jumping across a chasm in front of your friends? Like taunting a barking a dog?

Colette, you mean the poor soul had it all typed up already and then was prevented from posting it due to thread closure?

The poor thing ... such desparation ...

Oh poor baby. You paint every religious person as a brainwashed coward and little better than the child abuser portrayal that the OP tried, and then you act shocked and sarcastic when some of these brainwashed cowards disagree with you.

I thinks it's so you can later say "I was there!" Bragging rights, you know...?

Something like that, yes

Broccoli

Instant Karma's gonna get you
Gonna knock you right on the head
You better get yourself together
Pretty soon you're gonna be dead
What in the world you thinking of
Laughing in the face of love
What on earth you tryin' to do
It's up to you, yeah you

Instant Karma's gonna get you
Gonna look you right in the face
Better get yourself together darlin'
Join the human race
How in the world you gonna see
Laughin' at fools like me
Who in the hell d'you think you are
A super star
Well, right you are

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Well we all shine on
Ev'ryone come on

Instant Karma's gonna get you
Gonna knock you off your feet
Better recognize your brothers
Ev'ryone you meet
Why in the world are we here
Surely not to live in pain and fear
Why on earth are you there
When you're ev'rywhere
Come and get your share

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Yeah we all shine on
Come on and on and on on on
Yeah yeah, alright, uh huh, ah

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Yeah we all shine on
On and on and on on and on

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Yeah we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun

John Lennon

Ok, seriously. Two page posts quoting someone else? Not very productive.

hey! thats songs a classic!!

and it fit this post. sometimes others can say something spot on in a single(or double) post than 55 threads on the same subject.