Have you closed your store because of CopyBot?

But if they buy your object, take it home, then copybot it :
They now have a full perm version which they can sell in their store, or even worse give away as a freebie which will quickly be added to many freebie boxes.

what a stupid question...

My personal issue is not with what is or isn't being done by LL to address this particular problem. My issue is the attitude of LL and Phillip Linden concerning such issues.

They promote this "platform" as a place to do serious commercial business, and have since the start. They style it as the next great metaverse to replace the WWW as the commercial, educational, and social hub of the internet. They draw in businesses, small and large by promising them a platform for BUSINESS.

But...then LL and Phllip Linden treat Second Life as if it is some great experiment...a toy, a game. They promote a platform and bring in peopl like me who leave careers to start a business here on this platform of theirs and then they abandon us to Wild West bandits by acting as if they have no responsibilities for the security, stability, and economy of their "platform". When an issue arises they immediate ignore it and wash their hands of it...dismiss it or cover it up. They say "we can seize your land and assets if you do some nebulous ToS violation" as if this is a game and not a real life business platform. they say "sorry that isn't our issue to deal with theft of your copyrighted data that was allowed because of our platform's flaws, our short-sightedness, our working with hackers at outside groups, or our negligence. We don't enforce copyrights." as if this was some great joy ride that hundreds and maybe thousands of people invested their entire lives and family's livelihoods on.

They want to promote and have the image of a business platform, the investors in a business platform, but then they want to act like it's a toy. You can't have it both ways. Second Life is not a game, it's not a toy, it's not an experiment. It's a platform for serious world business that people's very livelihoods depend on for rent, food, medical care. It's a platform like Windows or Linux that people build buinesses they depend on around because the companies who made those platforms have promised them security, productivity, and support. When an issue is uncovered with Windows, does Microsoft ignore it? No, they work to fix it immediately. They don't treat Windows and all those businesses that depend on it as if they are a gigantic game or experiment like LL does here.

THAT is my issue with LL and why my sims are closed down now. This is like the proverbial straw. I am sick of the lame double speak. I am sick of being treated like a game customer, when what I actually am is a serious, real world business investing in your platform.

I and many others took a chance to trust Ll and Phillip Rosendale's vision of what this platform could be. We quit our jobs, started businesses here and invested thousands of dollars and our children's security on the promise that Ll would provide a real, serious, and secure business platform for the future. But instead we get a half-assed experiment of Phillip's that they refuse to even own up to the real business responsibilities of.

I am sick of LL's attitude. I am sick of being treated like a child when I am an experienced and accomplished businesswoman with decades of corporate experience. I am sick of being ignored and having the responsibility for serious data loss, theft, and copyright infringements that are caused BY LL's flawed platform being passed off on me and other content creators who invested in your platform.

It's time for LL to wake up and realize that without investors of business people like me and those one this page who have shut down in protest of LL attitude on these issues...LL would have no platform. WE are why SL has been a success. WE have made SL successful because we create businesses that people want to see and use in SL. Ll makes no content, just a blank world. WE made SL successful DESPITE LL. Time LL learn that, and wake up and change their attitude to that of a serious business instead of a toy-maker.

THAT is why I stand with these other businesses today. Not out of fear of some copybot. Not out of lack of understanding or knowledge of how complex systems work or what can and can't be done by LL. I stand here with these investors and businesses in a state of anger and fury and betrayal at LL's attitude towards those of us who invested in them and whom they have ignored for so long.

Well said, indeed, Zoe!

Sunspot Pixie- Somehow, games like WoW and many others manage to stem this activity enough so that they are still able to offer a viable product.

Yes. By not allowing any customers to CREATE new content. Players only jump through hoops to aquire NO-COPY versions of content created for them by the game owners.

That's not a solution for SecondLife.

Even Blizzard allows 3rd party plug-ins to their client, because it's good for business. Diverse and deeply customizable interfaces allow people to play how they want to.


Here, in "Our World, Created by Us" ... what freedom and diversity do we have with the client interface?

None.

I expect better from SecondLife.

LibSL makes "better" possible.


Change is scary... particularly if you're heavily invested in the status quo, but if we don't embrace change SecondLife will just hand it's monopoly to the next competitor that comes along.

I'd rather have a rocky road ahead than a dead end.

My point isn't really dependent upon who is making the items. If WoW were to become flooded with duped items, it would ruin the economy. And, people can make things in WoW (and many other MMOE/MMOGs) and sell them on the Auction House... the fact that things are more unique in SL doesn't change the fact that duping in any game/platform/what have you which runs with a vibrant economy is a real problem.

Blizzard has banned 10s of 1000s of acconts for the use of third party proggies.

From the official Blizzard page: "The use of trainers, cheats, or any kind of hacks is not allowed on World of Warcraft game servers. As such, the use of such programs may result in the loss of your items, characters, or even the permanent closing of your World of Warcraft account(s)"

And:

Blizzard’s own Exploitation Policy states that:

"A third party program is any file or program that is not a part of the World of Warcraft software, but is used to gain an advantage in the game..."

And that:

"If a player is found to have used such a program, he/she may:

Be temporarily suspended from the game
Have further action taken, up to and including account closure, based on the intent of the program "

Of course, people will and do still use them, some of my WoW buddies use tonnes of them, but the salient point here is that Blizzard states its not kosher and is active in trying to prevent it.

Change is not scary. Other residents being allowed and even encouraged to reverse engineer the client is. I've said it in several places now - if these folks are so valuable, then they need to be hired and sign NDAs.

This cat is out of the bag now, and it's not going to go away until LL legitimises their association with this group, either by partnering with them as a company, or by hiring them. In both scenarios, non-disclosure is of paramount importance.

Having a loose, nebulous group of residents with this type of endorsed access to the internal pinnings of SL, in place of an organised team is dangerous. It's too vulnerable to leaks, and with throw away alts, it's too tempting for members to use their discoveries for profit or griefing.

If they can make SL "better" as you put it, then they need to be working at LL.

You abide by Blizzard's copyright over all items you 'craft' in WoW.

You have no intellectual property rights over 'crafted' items there.

Crafting merely earns you a copy of existing content already created by Blizzard.

New content created in SecondLife is Authored by us... we have intellectual property rights over it.... we can set copy rights and have them enforced.

Try that in WoW and they'll either laugh at you... or sue you for infringing on their already existing copyright.

CopyBot is a threat because it means that copyright enforced by program code is no longer something that can be counted on... so like the rest of the world we have to resort to social and legal methods to enforce our control over our intellectual property.

I was told that setting your content to no modify can prevent theift, but i havent comfirmed this. However EVERYTHING i have laying around in any sim is now no modify just to be safe. Also i am not wearing my avatar anymore till this is resalved.

Currently i'm wearing one of the most easy to get avs. This is just another one of those things that ruins our SL. Serously this is the worst MMO i've ever gone to. Only reason i stick around anymore is cuz i got freinds here, and i'm able to express my furry lifestyle freely... Other then that, id be much happier in EQ!

Given the repeated insistence by Blue Linden that LL will do NOTHING to curb or punish the creators or distributors of CopyBot, I have now closed my last remaining clothing and avatar parts stores, in Furnation Skymall and in Serenity Woods. My vendors now only offer one thing 'for sale'. A texture claiming the business has been closed in protest over LL refusing to punish the makers and distributors of CopyBot. Anyone who wants the texture may get it from my vendors for L$1, and may freely copy and redistribute it.

It is highly unlikely that they will EVER re-open, because I really doubt LL will reverse their stance on this insanity. I'll leave them there in protest until my mall leases expire, then they will go away forever.

I refuse to make any more clothes or consumer-level objects. No more homes. No more custom-ordered textures for the little guy. There's no way to protect my IP, and LL has made it crystal clear they won't do ANYTHING until after my products have already been compromised and I have managed to catch a thief in the act. That's like stating they know there are rapists in the neighborhood, but they will do nothing until AFTER I have personally been raped, even if they know who they are!

From here on out, I only create things for personal friends, sim owners or owners of large estates, and other content creators (textures). CopyBot can't duplicate the efforts to build a whole sim, and other content creators won't support texture thieves in any great numbers.

Thanks a lot LL, for killing another customer's business viability!

I haven't read all this thread yet, but I just want to say my motivation to close my store (I didn't realize at the time other were doing it) was self-interest and pragmatism.

I simply didn't make my things just to give them out to everyone freely.

I'm holding off selling my land, but if LL doesn't come up with something, and something a lot better than the "We love LibSL" bull they've come up with so far, then I will probably end up selling that, too.

Why? Because there is no point me paying LL half a sim just to give away all my products.

coco

From the transcript of the meeting at the seller's guild I read, the creator apparently felt like the best solution would be to set items for sale at $1, then get to making another one real quick, etc.

coco

Well, hey, I am never not working on a new product. (Each one takes me quite a while.)

But the old ones do not stop selling.

Once they are copied and given out, though, I don't see how making a new product would do any good.

Theoretically, I could be making it to sell only one - the one that then gets copied and given out.

Of course, that theoretical extreme wouldn't happen, but the point is the diminishing returns would be real and eventually render putting out any product at all pointless.

So I don't see long tails having much to do with it.

I don't think you CAN keep ahead in a society where people are allowed to click-copy and distribute your goods for free, and at will.

coco

As I said in the past what was wrong in the past is now right now. The SL game as we know it is nolonger as we knew it say 9 months or 11/2 years ago. Rules that many have honored and repected. Wiht those early day players that themselves held rules dearly and repected them are know themselves are getting banned because some lindens feels some sort of power play to control people within the game. Blue Linden might be stuck in a position unlike those others lindens. But Blue Lindens is being AS straight forward as he can be. But unike some lindens they are as chicken and gutless as some. Some Lindens always promoting al is get all is good! BULLSHi`! ITS FAR FROM IT!
PR in the game is important and having some lindens post "I working so hard for you trying to aswer IM" JUST DOES NOT CUT IT! banning people for posting in the linden answer forums (not just me) for asking questens about griefters got banned themselves. There is the problem.....CopyBot stealing content? same thing LLabs only acts when eiterh you insult them or they themselves have been griefted...... Why don`t we all play THERE.COM.........

This is a very sweet, heartfelt and well thought out post, Cazzi.

I said more or less the same thing to the people who live with me on Azure Islands last night.

"Listen, guys," I said, "They can kill my business, at least temporarily, but they can't kill our fun. I've already got over a month paid on this land here and we aren't going anywhere."

And they can't, you know. They can kill the businesses, but we can still go basic and have fun.

coco

I have already made my opinions known so I will not repeat them. So I will tell a story in reality about something similar to show how foolish, naive and juvenile you are.

My name is Thunderclap because that is my internet avatar and business name. I am Thunderclap. Thunderclap Books, Thunderclap Ministries (http://supreme_thunder.tripod.com) etc. I have been involved in the internet since 97. I am involved in networking, copyright and the dark underbelly of all of this here.
In 2003, while watching AMC I got involved in a discussion on The offical board of Eden Reigel who plays Bianca Mongomery. So of the heavier fans there were discussing establishing titles for the PVU womens volleyball team mentioned on an episode. This continued for a while until someone mentioned they were making hats for the team. So I went and in the course of 3 hours created the Image you guys see under my name. The PVU pumas logo. I posted it as a lark figuring that it was better than the official one. I was right. It got accepted, the hats came out. I got one for free for being the creator of the official logo. I even have a picture fo Eden wearing the hat.
About 9 months ago while I was living in the Salvation army shelther (because I had helped out someone and the place I was living at was closed by the city) I lost bag of clothes in day center next door. My hat was in it. It appeared a month later on someone else. Apparently, it fell from its storage point and was recycled into community use (I was only able to get to the day center once a week, so I didn't know). I tried to get security to give me the hat, tried t get the person to give me the hat. Security said if I could prove it was mine, I need to call the police their hands were tied. This person was homeless. If I had called, and showed them my backup images, and the picture of my hand on Eden they would have arrested the guy on theft, dragged him down to jail for a nite, fined him and kicked him otu. But he would be banned from the day center and his stuff recycled. he would be sleeping with what he had on him on the dirt.
In good conscience I couldn't do that. So I have no hat. My point is this. Everyone here is has lost sight of the purpose of SL. To have fun. meet people and be entertained. Yes, all creators love adding stuff to the world. But closing down because you are afraid someone might steal it tells me you aren't here for that. You are here for greed. And maybe you should leave.
If you are here to contribute and have fun, you ahve to accept that you stuff is never safe online. It will be copied. All of it. Everything that exists online is free because everything can be made that way by someone of talent in that arena.
We hope and believe that most people will respect our desire to make moeny on the object we made as a thank you for it. That is the crux of the music war and the crux of this. Libsecond life was made because LL is too small to handle what they made. others wanted to help and got permission. They released something they shouldn't because they didn't forsee those who want only free.

The internet is not reality. Sl is a platform and a community but it is still a game.
In Ultima online, there was community as well but it is still a game. Myspace is a platform and a community but is still a html chat client. Yes, you can sell things but online is not RL. An a SL store is not an RL store.
Closing hurts you and your customers. It doesn't hurt the theives. It doesn't stop them. You are being angry and making yourself sick. You aren't bothering the thieves.
To Zoe, it is your responsibility to monitor your copyrights and trademarks. You want business in RL stuff, Fine. I suggest your read up on your rights. They had a
choice. They let you have everything. EA is the exact opposite. If it is on their server it is theirs. Ultima Online turs a blind eye to sale of the gold. items, housing and accounts. As I said before, when you show me your business licence and your RL products them you can scream. Right now, you are responisble for making your content as hard to copy as possible. They have said they aren't going to do it. I agree with them. You either do or leave.

I said at the beginning that everyone has to make a choice: You must accept that people will be ablr to copy anything you make. Do you still stay, make money and contribute because most respect you, your brand and your talent. or do you leave because you were here for only the money and really don't give a damn about anyone only that yourselves because 'how dare they steal from you'. Yes, you get angry. Its normal. But don't let it destroy you. I had real irreplaceable stuff stolen from me, and I could get it back. Did I let it fester and consume me? No.

Dana, I will give $50 dollars for all your your work. Sign it all over to me,. I will happy to sell it myself. I am taking about the orginal not uplaode images. Why? Because what you are asking will never happen and it is a shame to see it go to waste.

Finally, your protests would kill or end sl nor will your exit. I didnt know of Furnation until the protests. And I will have no part of them because of them.
Same with your shops. I will not be your customer if and when you reopen because of your choice. I still respect your talent and who you are. But you still called the 'police'.
Yes, the place will be less without you. But will it go? No. There are pleanty of us who will stand against anything to make this live. I have an idea. I am making clothes again and I will be damned if I let the copybot theives or your fearful screaming steal my idea again. My anger did it to me with Sims. It won't happen here.

Funny, I wrote a book again. (summon the Heroes is on Amazon.com if you read scifi/fantasy and like harry potter, LOTR etc) But I had to address this as well.
Live the journey, because everyt destination is but a doorway to another.

Since I posted here yesterday that I closed my shop, I want to post here that I decided to reopen it, and here's why:

Yesterday evening when I learned about copybot, I felt very sad. After learning as much as was then available about it, I closed my store down to safeguard the things I’ve made, which are all prim objects.

Today I got ahold of a copy of copybot and I have spent the day reading about it and testing it for myself. Having done so, I am greatly reassured. It doesn’t do much, it’s hard to use, and it doesn’t work very well. All that could change, of course, if it ever became a profitable thing to sell and develop for widespread use. But right now I see little threat from it.

I firmly believe that LL needs to take an aggressive stand regarding copybot and progrmas like it: for the time being, LL should make any use (not only unauthorized use) of copybot and similar programs a violation of the ToS, until the safeguards that have been mentioned on the official blogs have been implemented. LL should also make it a violation to provide access to copybot and similar programs from within SL, SLExchange or the forums either by sale or by by any other means.

I have reopened my store with only small misgivings, and I will once again happily immerse myself in content creation.

It seems you view my decision not to open my shop at this time as one of greed... nothing is further from the truth. For me, it's a matter of principle and fairness... Copybot is not fair to creators, me included. I hold back for now. Turning an innocent in for stealing your hat would not have been fair. You held back. The right choices aren't always the tastiest of the bunch.
If I was greedy, I prolly would be flooding the market with my crap in hopes of stealing other creators customers while they're closed in protest. Instead I stand with them because I too believe something needs to be done about copybot.

What principle Dana? This isn't a RL store. Go download the secondcast 42 and listen to it. It is an interview which the libsecondlife creators about how they are trying to make SL better. They screwed up. LL underestimated the pissiness of a section of its creators.

Actually I don't believe yours is greed. I believe yours is fear. You are afraid that it will be stolen and that you won't make any money off it and people are running around with it for free. This could happen. But right now, I promise it won't because there is nothing to steal. It isn't available. Has anyone noticed that the corporations who have RL stuff and are here to market including Dell who just arrived are running around and screaming? Why? Because they aren't concerned. This they deal with in RL everyday.
Only an foolish shopholder closes the shop when he is shoplifted from. The rest install security cameras and use the law to apprihend the criminals.
Yes, Phillip put the onus on all of us to protect our stuff. Its ours! We should protect it. It isn't his responsibliity to do so.
When I rent an apartment I don't tell the landlord, I want to you have a guard by the door everyday. After all, Its part of what I pay you.
No you pay for the space and you abide by the rules. He said numerous times that they won't police copyrighters for us. They will help us. But we must do this ourselves.
The pandora's box is open and hope is all that is left. Its not going to change. So you can bite the bullet and join the people, contribute and enjoy your time or you can waste all of that time and energy and be angry and have your principle that I wont be stolen from. And you wont. You are right. But no one will know nor will they care.
Everyone who is famous is famous because they stepped out and bit the bullet and took the risk, knowing or not the consquences.
Take the risk. don't let a 0.0001 percent of the SL populstion prevent the rest from enjoying your skills.

Ps: as for the greedy comment. That is how capitalism works. they closed, they deserve to lose customers. Capitalsim believes this. I fortunately don't.

Hey, I just read that transcript on SLUniverse.

Should be required reading for everyone.

coco

It should be. It should also be required reading for Lindens. LL has some serious questions to answer about their support of libsl. I am so angry right now. LL has been grossly negligent, their support of libsl should be withdrawn, and libsl should be banned.

how do you ban a software little boy?
especially an open source one.

in real life its the company that defend it's intellectual property, thus its your job to defend your own.

You mean defend their intellectual property by supporting and publically defending these guys?

http://www.sluniverse.com/forums/Topic12867-1-1.aspx

Fade is a big boy, you are an idiot.

No need to be insulting.

Libsecondlife is a group of people who broke the TOS with LL's blessing (and LL is neglifent for doing so), not a piece of software.

You can try to ban every known user of it.

You call for protectionistic measures. Essentially you ask LL to play the police and protect your source of income on the grounds that their advertising of SL as a market constitutes a contract that binds them to provide this capacity for you.

It is something a judge will have to decide, i am afraid. I suggest to file a tort action against LL and see where it leads to.

In real life, the government doesn't afford people such anonymity, so it's a bit more complicated than defending your IP in real life, because of the wall of anonymity afforded people in SL (by LL - the "government" of SL for all intents and purposes). Especially when anyone can sign up for an account with fake personal information and a fake email address, and therefore neither the "government" or the person(s) whose IP is being infringed may have any idea whatsoever who the culprit(s) may be. Because LL has constructed their virtual space in this manner, it is my firm belief that they should do more than just point to the DMCA.