bots buying lands from under ur feet
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Ike Fairweather
Off Tha Chain
Join date: 1 Feb 2007
Posts: 387
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06-24-2007 05:33
From: jamie Cheeky Me and a neigbour were doing a trasnaction of land at a cheap price as we were friends and no one was on radar we assumed it would be safe. The land was set and immediately I went to buy it only to find someone else had already bought it! We contacted a linden who did some reaseach but bascially said they had the right to buy this land as it was set for anyone.
How can this be right that people can buy land from under your feet via a bot wihtin one second flat and then when asked they will not return it!. This is a cheats way of aquiring land and a very unprofessional one at that..... anyone else had this issue and got their land back? "we assumed it would be safe." Never make assumptions. |
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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06-24-2007 06:21
I just tried out setting a plot for sale to check what the current interface looked like. I could set it for sale for 0L$ to Anybody. There was no sign of any warning, caution, popup. I didn't go the last step to click the "Set for Sale" button - - well c'mon  I don't like to think what could have happened if I had confirmed the sale setup "just for a very quick test". It is far faster and easier to simply select "Anyone" than it is to search for the buyer name in the dialogue. I think that this factor is the killer. If someone is unaware of the existence of landbots, it's understandable that they would set a sale like that for someone standing beside them. The design of the interface leads people into unknowingly exposing themselves to abuse. If the abuse suffered were simply a short-term griefing, then perhaps it wouldn't be so important. However the abuse is more serious. 1) There's a loss of money involved - and no way was the person gambling! 2) The outcome could be a griefing build and/or ad farm in a previously attractive area. |
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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06-24-2007 06:37
From: Sling Trebuchet I didn't go the last step to click the "Set for Sale" button - - well c'mon I don't like to think what could have happened if I had confirmed the sale setup "just for a very quick test". Actually, I was thinking of doing just that, on one of the "penny-priced" 4x4s from gone-bust ad farms, just to get the name (and UUID) of the bot that snarfed it up. But I'm not sure they'd bite on 16sq.m. parcels... and the next step in my Evil Plot is foiled: trying to track that bot back to home base, to see if there's a little coven of insensate Ruths waiting for the next pounce, or if they're widely distributed above existing For Sale parcels, inflating dwell. |
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Milla Alexandre
Milla Alexandre
Join date: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,759
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'virtual' land
06-24-2007 07:51
It took me some time to actually buy land in SL.... and I did it taking full responsibility that I am, in fact, putting my hard earned 'real' $$$ into a 2D world that could disappear on me me at any given moment. My computer might get fried.....SL might have a catastrophic crash....or maybe, just maybe, I'll wake up one day and decide my first life is just way more important than sitting my ass in front of a computer screen and playing 'reality' in SL. *sigh* My point being, I think we have to accept responsibility for the fact that this isn't real.....even tho we can make real $$$ and real commerce exists...it's still a very risky element to sink money into. If we choose to do so, and mistakes are made....we 'own' it. I see it like gambling....or blowing money on a night out....or buying cigarettes.....What ever I put into SL is mad money...I have to be prepared to lose it completely in order to keep it all in perspective and enjoy SL.
I've sold land thus far without any mishaps......but still....I'm not expectinbg to get rich....just maintain my SL habit. It's unfortunate that folks come into this with different ideas and expectations......and the more seriously we take it...the more we have to lose I guess. I don't think it would be too complicated to put a little disclaimer in the window about setting land for sale to anyone and the 'risks'. But...I also know that some people dive into SL head first and ask questions later.....and thus get burned. Chalk it up to a lesson learned.
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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06-24-2007 08:42
From: Kyrah Abattoir considering how large and annoying the land sale window became i consider losing your lad to a bot is now, not a simple mistake, but something you deserve due to your unacceptable stupidity.
So i suggest you find an activity less mentally challenging than the internet. This person made an error in judgment. They thought that because there was no on nearby it would be safe to set the land to anyone. They had no concept of land swoopers or bots in their frame of reference. To say it's unacceptable stupidity is arrogant and uncalled for. From: Kyrah Abattoir did you use recently the land sale window? it forbid you now to sell to, 0 to anyone has all nice red icons and stuffs, i don't think LL need to go further than that in the nannying of it's less cunning residents It's "stuff" not "stuffs" and "its" not "it's". Some would say that's unacceptable stupidity. So I suggest you find an activity less mentally challenging than typing on a keyboard.
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Read or listen to some Eckhart Tolle. You won't regret it.
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poopmaster Oh
The Best Person On Earth
Join date: 9 Mar 2007
Posts: 917
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06-24-2007 08:45
there is a sticky thread, at the top of this forum, that explains how to transfer land to another user without the risk of losing it.
there are pop ups
there are f1 help pages
there are 1000000 threads
if you choose to live life without reading anything you choose to give your land away.
the only mistake that matters is the one YOU made, and of course it only matters to you...
goodluck and g0dsp33d
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InSL u find every kind of no-life retard you could possibly imagine as well as a few even Tim Burton couldnt imagine u find 12yr-olds claiming to be 40 men claiming 2 be women, women claiming 2 make sense and every1 claiming 2 have ideas that are actually worth a damn if only someone would just listen to their unique innovative and exceptionally important idea
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Elex Dusk
Bunneh
Join date: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 800
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06-24-2007 08:49
From: Raymond Figtree This person made an error in judgment. They thought that because there was no on nearby it would be safe to set the land to anyone. They had not concept of land swoopers or bots in their frame of reference. To say it's unacceptable stupidity is arrogant and uncalled for. This raises the question: How much detail regarding potential pitfalls does the Land Sale window need to include? For example: * WARNING * Setting your land for sale to anyone means anyone can buy it including Landbots, Space People, Flying Elvises, Morlocks, Eloi, Distinct and Seperate Personalities, etc In the outlined scenario by the OP anyone could have wandered into the sim during the transaction and purchased the land. The problem was not the landbot. The problem was with the person selling the land. They failed to take proper care while transferring an asset. |
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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06-24-2007 09:32
From: Elex Dusk .....
The problem was not the landbot. The problem was with the person selling the land. They failed to take proper care while transferring an asset. The problem was that there is a known-by-LL recurring issue of sales going to the wrong party. I tried it today. There is absolutely no advice delivered to the seller at the time and place that they quite obviously need it. Not alone does the interface fail to warn - it actually does the opposite. The nature of the design pushes to seller towards setting the sale to Anybody. In the environment, it is a bad design. In the environment, it is not "fit for purpose". |
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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06-24-2007 09:33
From: Jessica Elytis Security measures on the land sales are irrelivant.
They do not mean one darn thing without LL actually TEACHING new residents how to USE the interface. While some of us may understand them from being here so long, or ~think~ the popups are intuitive, the fact comes down to it that for new residents SLis overwelming. (And if anyone says they read everything and understood it all before they started explorign in SL, then they are a bald faced liar.)
There is no training. HI and OI are a joke for instructions, and the KB is about as helpful as a rabid octopus with herpies.
Landbots exploit honest mistakes (we all make them). Is there a "legitimate" use for them? Maybe, but I've not seen one. What I have seen is a disgusting practice of LL's that LL IGNORES unethical use of these bots. While I agree that LL can not monitor all of SL (a bit too large a scale now), they CAN deal with instances like this that are brought to their attention. Pawning it off as "it's not our problem cause it didn't break rules we forgot to put in place" is a bunch of bullsh!&
I say it does violate the CS if not the ToS as it impacts negatively on another's enjoyment of SL. ie Griefing for lack of a more defined term. People making the mistakes are not hurting anyone, nor even attempting to interact with anyone other than themselves. Bots and their owners/creators are storming into the area and disrupting the other's enjoyment of Second Life. And from what I remember, that IS agsint the rules.
Quite frankly, I expect this type of behavior from other residents. I know the world is full of crooks. That LL takes the "it's not our problem" attitude sickens me.
~Jessy I agree with you. SL is one of the most Poorly "Developer Documented" pieces of software I've seen. Not everyone that comes here is a Silicon Head, WorldofEverWarQuest fanatic. The Help island tutorials are fine for Basic Movement, but after that it's a task to find answers to all the nuances of the game. Yes, a lot of things should be learned through experience, but things such as this should be publicized a bit better in world for those that don't read the forums. Or the Forums themselves. I've had many people tell me they didn't even know there WAS a SL forum. I think a delay in sale transactions is fine. "XYZ wants to buy your land for $XXX. DO you wish to proceed?"
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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06-24-2007 10:22
From: Kyrah Abattoir did you use recently the land sale window? it forbid you now to sell to, 0 to anyone has all nice red icons and stuffs, i don't think LL need to go further than that in the nannying of it's less cunning residents Just becuase the newer land buying interface is larger and more aggrivating, it does not mean it is more effective. Effectiveness in reducing errors by the less technical savy Residents and complexity probably dont mix. It seems almost as if the solution was aimed at the wrong audience. |
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Har Fairweather
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,320
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06-24-2007 10:40
From: jamie Cheeky Its interssting what you are all saying, yes we do feel like we were stolen from, the seller (who wasnt me i was the buyer btw i had no control over putting my name in that transaction) just did not realise such things as bots existed. She quite stupidly now assumed that no one was about no one could buy it a harsh lesson to have learnt. We own ALL surrounding land to the land that was for sale, the right thing to do would have been for the greedy owner of that bot to say sorry my mistake bots are automatic here is the land back and next time use a name, instead this greedy person called Mysore Masala decided that he wanted to make 400% profit on the land through his unmoralistic and damn right cheating stealing ways. Tell me what would any of you poeple out there who are saying tough do, would you sell the land and keep the profit and sleep at night too??? or would u actually do the right thing and say yes abviously a mistake as u won half the sim heres the money back?? There reportedly are land barons with landbots who will return an obvious mistake. Unfortunately, yours is not one of them. Since you and your friend own all the land surrounding the parcel, one option might be to wall it off completely (use "huge prims," because that keeps the prim count low, build high, and do make them really ugly on his side), and see how long he or anyone else wants to pay tier on land useless to anyone else but you. Depends on how crucial owning that parcel right now is to you, but that is what I would do if at all possible. Oh, and don't repeat the mistake. And do warn your friends. |
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AckAck Ackland
Registered User
Join date: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 47
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06-24-2007 11:12
From: Jessica Elytis Security measures on the land sales are irrelivant.
They do not mean one darn thing without LL actually TEACHING new residents how to USE the interface. While some of us may understand them from being here so long, or ~think~ the popups are intuitive, the fact comes down to it that for new residents SLis overwelming. (And if anyone says they read everything and understood it all before they started explorign in SL, then they are a bald faced liar.)
There is no training. HI and OI are a joke for instructions, and the KB is about as helpful as a rabid octopus with herpies.
Landbots exploit honest mistakes (we all make them). Is there a "legitimate" use for them? Maybe, but I've not seen one. What I have seen is a disgusting practice of LL's that LL IGNORES unethical use of these bots. While I agree that LL can not monitor all of SL (a bit too large a scale now), they CAN deal with instances like this that are brought to their attention. Pawning it off as "it's not our problem cause it didn't break rules we forgot to put in place" is a bunch of bullsh!&
I say it does violate the CS if not the ToS as it impacts negatively on another's enjoyment of SL. ie Griefing for lack of a more defined term. People making the mistakes are not hurting anyone, nor even attempting to interact with anyone other than themselves. Bots and their owners/creators are storming into the area and disrupting the other's enjoyment of Second Life. And from what I remember, that IS agsint the rules.
Quite frankly, I expect this type of behavior from other residents. I know the world is full of crooks. That LL takes the "it's not our problem" attitude sickens me.
~Jessy Amen! I feel sick to my stomach when I hear this same story over and over. When people design games, they must write rules. They try to make sure there are no loopholes so that others can't cheat. If there are holes and people cheat with them (not technically wrong, just unethical holes), the other players get angry, stop playing the game and no one buys any more games. Bots are rule dodgers/hole divers/exploiters of human behavior. So, LL can either ban Bots, or rewrite the rules for each new search/copy/landbot that oozes into SL. LL is too lazy or clueless to do either. Could this be one of the many reasons people do not stay with SL? 10% customer retention is not a success! Most of us here writing in this one thread will NOT be in SL in a few weeks. Sure, LL made money on that tiny real estate deal. But the loss of existing and new customers thanks to the ill will caused by that one little deal creates a much bigger economic hit for LL. Seeing LL in action, I'm convinced they've never thought through any of that. |
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Har Fairweather
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,320
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06-24-2007 12:52
Have to agree, AckAck. Leaving aside such obviously contemptible issues as ethical behavior, not fixing this little trap that people fall into over and over again is a dumb business practice. I guess it is the kind of thing that looks ok to techies and coders, who are professionally trained to look at the coding version of "fine print," but any businessman used to dealing with the public would look at this controversy and his first reaction would be to do a roflmaocopter until he recovered himself. That might take a while. His second reaction would be to write off SL as any kind of investment and go elsewhere.
Methinks LL needs a good businessman on board.
And maybe adult supervision in general.
And this is from someone who is a great booster of LL and SL and all it aspires to be. Guys, stop pissing in the soup!
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Tal Fargis
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 2
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08-03-2007 19:21
My thought is they are spending the time working thru gambling and the adult content. Yet it seems there are not many working to correct repeated unethical practices. Is it techincally legal? Obviously. it is against CS to grief someone by throwing them around in a cage, with or without them being too noob to figure out how to get out of the trap but not against CS to swipe land thru a landbot?
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-03-2007 20:33
From: jamie Cheeky Me and a neigbour were doing a trasnaction of land at a cheap price as we were friends and no one was on radar we assumed it would be safe. The land was set and immediately I went to buy it only to find someone else had already bought it! We contacted a linden who did some reaseach but bascially said they had the right to buy this land as it was set for anyone.
How can this be right that people can buy land from under your feet via a bot wihtin one second flat and then when asked they will not return it!. This is a cheats way of aquiring land and a very unprofessional one at that..... anyone else had this issue and got their land back? Its really simple. The Linden's although they admit its a problem, Dont admit its enough of a problem that they are willing to actually warn residents. Never sell land set to "Anyone" unless you have it listed for its FULL value. The only things you can do now is: Contact the Landbot swooper and try to get your money back AR the Landbot claiming explaining you were swooped. And file Support Ticket that you were swooped. While technically the Landbot wasnt breaking any rule - Its a far better reason to file an AR and Support ticket than most of the ones Ive heard of. |
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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08-03-2007 20:35
yikes I fell victim of a Thread Necro!  |
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Cortex Draper
Registered User
Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 406
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08-04-2007 03:15
From: poopmaster Oh If you set it for sale to ANYONE and not to SOMEONE it is YOUR FAULT
Stop trying to make your MISTAKES someone elses FAULT and OWN YOUR LIFE The problem is the stupid interface with virtually no field validation. I wonder how many people have left SL due to this. I write professional software with deals running into millions of RL dollars and I would expect to be fired if my software was as dangerously designed as this. Simple ideas: 1. You should not be able to set land for sale to "everyone" for less than say 5L$ per sqm. The actual threshold should be something you can set in edit - preferences 2. land sales should not reach the search database for at least an hour. Also if the search database for land sales was only updated once per hour at a fixed time, this would massively reduce the server load from all those bots that currently try to do searches much more regularly than that. |
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Tal Fargis
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 2
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08-04-2007 03:56
After my first post I considered an option. Outside of SL you have the option to choose who you sell too. The current system favors the buyers on the sellers mistake. Why arent we allowed to decline bids on property? Instead of telling us we have just had our land bought put in the drop down menu the message, "John Smith has tendered the following offer of $ on # sized land giving # per sqare meter. Do you accept this offer. Y or N or ignore til later. its not a perfect system but it breaks down the ability of Landbots to get the property as I see it. Now for those real estate hounds or groups that shift alot of property there can always be an option in the preferences turning the feature off but with the natrual disclaimers. I'm not looking for a Nanny state but I would like a fair chance to choose my neighbors if I'm selling property. -Tal
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Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
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08-04-2007 13:28
From: Sling Trebuchet I just tried out setting a plot for sale to check what the current interface looked like.
I could set it for sale for 0L$ to Anybody After you click "Set land for sale" you get a pop up that says "Sale price must be set to more than L$0 if selling to anyone. Please select an individual to sell to if selling for L$0"
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Visit http://ninjaland.net for mainland and covenant rentals or visit our amazing land store at Steamboat (199, 56). Also, we pay L$0.15/sqm/week for tier donated to our group and we rent pure tier to your group for L$0.25/sqm/week. Free L$ for Everyone - http://ninjaland.net/tools/search-scumming/
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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08-04-2007 13:42
From: Tal Fargis After my first post I considered an option. Outside of SL you have the option to choose who you sell too. The current system favors the buyers on the sellers mistake. Why arent we allowed to decline bids on property? Instead of telling us we have just had our land bought put in the drop down menu the message, "John Smith has tendered the following offer of $ on # sized land giving # per sqare meter. Do you accept this offer. Y or N or ignore til later. its not a perfect system but it breaks down the ability of Landbots to get the property as I see it. Now for those real estate hounds or groups that shift alot of property there can always be an option in the preferences turning the feature off but with the natrual disclaimers. I'm not looking for a Nanny state but I would like a fair chance to choose my neighbors if I'm selling property. -Tal The only problem with that is it may take days even weeks to buy a block of land then because you are waiting for them to login and accept your offer
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Gina Jacks
Registered User
Join date: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 181
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08-04-2007 14:56
From: jamie Cheeky Me and a neigbour were doing a trasnaction of land at a cheap price as we were friends and no one was on radar we assumed it would be safe. The land was set and immediately I went to buy it only to find someone else had already bought it! We contacted a linden who did some reaseach but bascially said they had the right to buy this land as it was set for anyone.
How can this be right that people can buy land from under your feet via a bot wihtin one second flat and then when asked they will not return it!. This is a cheats way of aquiring land and a very unprofessional one at that..... anyone else had this issue and got their land back? It happened to me, my threads got locked too. I am not popular here and I don't give a S. People who do these things in SL are the equivalent of "..." in RL (use your imagination and put anything you want between the speech marks), we are not allowed to be "rude" in this forum, yet, some people manage to swear at you by being "polite". Sorry to hear this again, all my sympathy to you, and I have less and less respect for LL because they are letting bot users get away with it. I WILL get my money back + BIG interest from the bot who stitched us. If you hear me out there, I allow you to laugh at me while you still can. But you know what, casinos and gambling were ok... look now! Good riddance. One day bot users will be all banned from SL OR everyone will have a bot, and it will be a war, "who can grab the fastest"... Yet, I bet a new rule will come and forbid what they are allowing today - taking BIG advantage of people's mistakes. Lately I have deliberately set parcels for sale cheap to see "faces" popping, the scary thing is that it is a BIG organization, they run several bots at the same time, then set or resell to a group etc... It's ok, you have been framed! Keep coming idiots. |
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Gina Jacks
Registered User
Join date: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 181
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08-04-2007 15:05
Oh, wait a sec! George Bush has created loads of bots too - hasn't he?
Welcome to S HELL !
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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08-04-2007 15:18
From: Gina Jacks It happened to me, my threads got locked too. I am not popular here and I don't give a S.
People who do these things in SL are the equivalent of "..." in RL (use your imagination and put anything you want between the speech marks), we are not allowed to be "rude" in this forum, yet, some people manage to swear at you by being "polite".
Sorry to hear this again, all my sympathy to you, and I have less and less respect for LL because they are letting bot users get away with it. I WILL get my money back + BIG interest from the bot who stitched us. If you hear me out there, I allow you to laugh at me while you still can.
But you know what, casinos and gambling were ok... look now! Good riddance.
One day bot users will be all banned from SL OR everyone will have a bot, and it will be a war, "who can grab the fastest"... Yet, I bet a new rule will come and forbid what they are allowing today - taking BIG advantage of people's mistakes.
Lately I have deliberately set parcels for sale cheap to see "faces" popping, the scary thing is that it is a BIG organization, they run several bots at the same time, then set or resell to a group etc... It's ok, you have been framed! Keep coming idiots. You are replying to an old post with your paranoid ramblings. There is a BIG organization in your attic sending you this message via radio transmission to your gold fillings: You are clueless.
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Read or listen to some Eckhart Tolle. You won't regret it.
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Eric Cale
Addicted User
Join date: 28 Jul 2007
Posts: 66
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08-04-2007 15:47
From: Peggy Paperdoll Capitalism would never work without "laws"...... FAIR LAWS. Un-tethered "capitalism" fails everytime..........in fact they call that totalalitarism (spelling?). When a government fails to stand up for the masses they lose. There is a place for "governments" to take charge. And I'm about as conservative as they come.............registered Republican in the USA, Reganomic Republican in fact. Totalitarism is when the Government controls every aspect of your life, your job, your welfare. Capitalism unregulated becomes a big Monopoly mess.
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Shopping is a Game of Chance, you pay the vendor for that clothing set sometimes not to get it, and therefore should be banned.
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Eric Cale
Addicted User
Join date: 28 Jul 2007
Posts: 66
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08-04-2007 15:54
Also, Linden Labs is a Service Provider, as it says in the TOS. They don't have to take any action against anybody, there job is just to sell mainland and provide very basic Customer Support for Sims being offline.
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Shopping is a Game of Chance, you pay the vendor for that clothing set sometimes not to get it, and therefore should be banned.
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