buying land and still have to pay rent

As a sim owner, I have rather different approach and I don''t actually believe in ownership of sim land because I will always reserve the right to reclaim the land.

My sim is rental only, I charge renter 100L to reserve the land and then monthly rent. I do give the land ownership to the renter, the land is in their name and they own it for the rental period but they are not allow to resell and my island covenant clearly said the land is RENTAL only.

My problem with the ownership; as a sim owner how could I tell the buyer that they have the ownership if I can reclaim the land any point of time. I would like to manage my sim properly, so if someone bought the land and abuse the sim, I don't want to get into the confuse to explain to these abuser that why they have the ownership but I still need to kick them out, I hate this kind of sticky issue. How do you handle this if someone violate your covenant? and how do you reclaim the land? do you buy back the land from them?

A good way to fix all the confusion would be to do it according to the way it was designed to be done and NOT according to what you beleive.

First you list your land on the land sales search, just by the name LAND SALES search you should have a good indication that your doing something wrong.

Secondly by doing it that way LL has the ability and right to take away land just like you do, however they only take away land under clear TOS violations, you do take away land for what reason?. If you have designed your covenants correctly you could take land away if there was a violation of your TOS ( covenants ). Instead you reserve that right becuase ultimately you are the owner of the sim.

Now I have a personal problem with this kind of land management. When I list my Sim land as an outright sale with the stipulation the buyer has to agree to my covenants and tier fee's. and my land CAN'T be found becuase buyers are so disgusted every peice of land they telepoprt to is a BS scam that they quit before they can find my land..

Your method of renting out your land is a abuse of the system. you should rather run classified ads, and post on forums to rent out your land, not abuse a system others are using properly. That is if you truely want to rent.

By doing it the way you are, 1 leads to alot of confusion as you are reading in this post, and 2. Rents out your land at the cost of those who are trying to run business in a manner that is in harmony with the land sales functions.

I would ask that you give it good thought to how your business model is set up and see if there is something you can change both to make yourself a bit more profit and not be so damaging to others in the island sales business

LL reserves the right to take land back also, buy mainland ownership is ownership period. ther is no different set of rules there for a sim except for the fact LL trusts that a individual can do the same.

Covenants are very important, they are the judge and jury. Covenants are not there to force a bunch of rules and traps onto a land owner lest they fall into a trap and lost thier land, covenants are there rather to give everyone fair warning about what is acceptable and what isnt acceptable. Covenants dictate what are justifying reasons to lost yo0ur property and they are also the protection that land owners will not lose thier property as long as they follow the covenants.

Without a implementable covenant (contract) you provide your residents no securities in their investment in both you and the land. A properly done covenant is the ruler of both you and your residents, you are as obligated to abide by them as your residents are also.

I hope this helps some and NOT taken as a flame as I have edited my first post to not sound like a B**ch. But doing it the way your doing it is unfair to all other sim owners trying to sell thier land, its hard enough to earn trust, it shouldnt be compounded by previous hazzards future buyers have faced

Right you are Jackson. Estate land is fully owned by the resident, just like mainland. The difference is that if you choose a good estate, the estate manager will address your problems a lot quicker than Linden Lab if you lived on the mainland. Also, estate managers have the ability to keep unwelcome elements out of the estate (like casinos, spam lots and other things that cause lag), optimizing the land ownership experience for residents. While estate land ownership is clearly not for everyone, it offers a great value to those residents looking for a peaceful living experience.

Shameless plug: I manage an estate with two sims, Kush and Kush II. I sell the land at cost to residents. That's 29,999L for 4096 sq m of waterfront. Only a few left at that price. Send me an IM if you're interested!

Well, first you don't know if I listed any of my land on the land sales search. Did I ever said that in my other post? My renter either from known me in-world, they stopped by my island by themselves and I talked to them to see if they are interested or someone looks for land in the forum. NONE of my renter is coming from land search period.



Actually, I spent a lot of time to design my covenant and my covenant does not contains any trap on my renter (not land owner, even I given them the land ownership during the rental period). My covenant is there to enforce fair share of resource of the sim and make sure the sim looks good.

I don't take away land from renter for no reason and I have never reclaim land from anyone except one non-paid renter. As I said in my original post, the only problem I have with the whole ownership issue is that if someone violate my COVENANT and ignore all my warnings, what do I do, THE ONLY WAY IS TO RECLAIM MY LAND. (I am sure you would do it if someone invites 50 avatars to his 4096 sqm land on your sim and your others land owner can not come to the sim right?) And I don't see how to do it cleanly if I have charged this violator thousands of L$ upfront and tell them he own the land even with him violates my COVENANT. That's why I charge only a small fee and RENT instead of BUY and charge Tier. I just don't feel that a REAL ownership can be taken away.




The moment you start to accuse me something I am not it becomes a flame.
I don't know why you are so offended by my comment and claim all these non-sense thing about me mess up the whole land sales system and take away land from others with no reason.
I am just a SIM owner with a different view, which doesn't believe I am given out real ownership and that's why I don't sell land and only rent.



I believe how I run my business is no one else's business let alone how much profit I make. If what I believe made me less profit then tough luck. And I don't think I am damaging anyone business. I would rather use the word COMPETITION- If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!
And I do believe I have my right to express my point of view as well

The moment anyone who has title to a parcel puts it up for sale using the automated system, it's in land sales. He can't control that. This is LL's design, not the estate owner's. The estate owner cannot do a thing about it.

That's not fair, Jackson. The very fact that estate owners can reclaim land makes ALL estate purchases rentals by default. That users don't understand how land works is not his fault, and the fact that he presents it ultimately as rent is actually more honest than others and doesn't perpetuate the scam that some sellers use regarding island purchases. I had one guy come to me a while back while I was land shopping for mainland and solicited me to come to "buy" his land, which was on an estate in one of the bigger estate conglomerations. Fortunately for me, I knew the difference between an island purchase and mainland purchase and I was pissed off that he was trying to sell me his land that the estate owner could reclaim at any time. If someone other than LL has right of re-entry, it's RENT. Period. The funny mechanism of parcel ownership is the only thing that confuses the whole deal and makes people think they are being scammed when they are not being scammed, or opens up opportunities for scammers to fool people into thinking they are buying mainland.

I would say that his method of doing it is just fine, and that estate owners in general should be clearer about the nature of island ownership, since most people are ignorant of the key differences between estate land and mainland.

To say that would be the same as saying the purchase of mainland is merely rental also since no rules change


Seems I really struck a nerve, if i was under the impression that you where listing your land in the land sales search, it was becuase it seemed thats where you where leading.

Do take note that when the land is listed it automatically goes into the land sales search, when it transfers name it comes off the land sales search so infact you are doing what your saying your not. there are a few cues you can take to know if your doing as the system is designed
1 when you press the sell your land button, read that it sales "sell" not "rent" when someone buys your land take note that it says "buy" and not "rent" When you list your Property on the land sale search for L$100 and someone "buys" it there should be little doubt how the system was intended to be used. LITTLE DOUBT AT ALL

Question: do you put that its rental in the land description or do you not mention anything about it till they are on the land reading the covenants.. Nevermind I'll check for you.

The situation has got totally out of hand and its not just you but several other sim owners doing the same thing, somehow the old adage "if you cant beat them, join them" seems to be in play here, I'll point this out one last time so everyone knows my position on this, the Land Sales Search is for Land Sales only, not rentals, not anything else.

This starting to affect my experience in SL which is against Community Standards. this is also abuse of the data server resources which is a violation of the TOS

Its only going to take a few people filing abuse reports. I would do it myself but im a bit busy running an honest business in Sim Land Sales. I would think that most the major sim owners think like i do, as a matter of fact I know they do, its the smaller renegade sim owners that are making Island ownership a dirty word

I cannot tell if you understood what I wrote.

I said that the right of reentry by anyone other than LL makes every island purchase RENT. I don't have a RL contract with island owners I rent from. I do, however, have an RL contract with LL thanks to the TOS. Because LL is the mainland estate owner, I consider tier payments to them to be akin to taxes, not rent, because LL is the ultimate holder and governor of the game. Whereas paying to an island owner is more like rent, even though they may have a covenant, because island owners are still technically free to reclaim the land at any time even without a violation of the covenant, despite any claims to the contrary. Just because you make a covenant or quasi contract in this game doesn't mean it will be honored, though most people will do it. LL, however, is bound to honor the RL contract and though they have the power to reclaim the land, the RL contract makes the difference in my mind.

Thus a person using the automated system to sell their estate parcel is selling land subject to the quirks of the system. It's not a true sale, because someone other than LL has the right to reclaim the land. If it's sold to another estate owner, it could be lost! LL will not sell to another estate holder and screw you over - you must violate the TOS to lose your land. But this is not the fault of the person selling the land this way. This is the quirk of the design. The only scammers out there are the ones telling people they own island land without ensuring that buyers know that they are not owning mainland and that despite the covenant, it is still possible for the estate owner to reclaim the land and hence is renting from another player. Noobs that don't know the difference between estate land and mainland are the only ones that are going to be angry, but their anger is misplaced.

That said, I am not an estate holder. I don't rent land. If I were an estate holder, I would make sure that it was laid out in the tier box at the time of sale that because they do not own mainland that this is tantamount to a rental, except that they would have more control over the parcel and their name would be on it. Even Linden reps consider estate sales to be rental.

You should stop making assumption on how others operates..

Here's how it works, once the renter agrees to rent one of my parcel, the renter pay me 100L as the reserve fee directly. And after that I set up the land sell AND SET IT UP TO SELL TO "My Renter's name" @ 0L. Yes surprise, surprise, the sell land system has an option which allow to sell land to a SPECIFIC PERSON and LIKE THAT WAY YOU ALWAYS ASSUME THING. I assume that if I set the buyer to a specific person, it is not listed in the general system.



And yes I do put the "For Rent" in the land description. So people know that my land is for rent only. The last time I checked, 2 of my renter still have this in the description:

"For Rent (Residental) Tier $20 USD"



Personally I have nothing against people thinks different about what is land ownership. And I have never said land ownership is a dirty word, you can continue sell your land at the price you want and I could continue to rent out my land as the price I think it suit. I think we just have some different opinions over the issues. And isn't what the Lindens always said, the land market is a FREE MARKET.

But the thing I hate is people who think they know all and try to bully around others to their side, accuse others abuse the system and calling others renegade because they don't accept that others can have different thinking.

The only time I ever took back land was temperary to help a owner join plots...

Covenants are TOS, you can just as easy press a legal case against a sim owner as you can against LL if you feel your you where mislead and th result was a loss of moneys

I will concede that each person has a right to for now to do as they see fit with thier land. I just get very upset, and we all can look and see it happening on the land search page, the amount of abuse and improper use that make the system fail, and when it comes down to it, LL has yet to do anything about it, and there is very little power the average user has to rectify the situation. I do beleive that everyone affected has the right to disapprove publicly the method of listing rental properties on the land search. IF this is not you Jack, then I am sorry for insinuating that this is what your doing.

If any reader is out there doing this form of marketing please look at the valid points made on both sides. and try to do the right thing

Jackson, this is precisely why they separated mainland sales from estate sales. The difference is important enough that Linden set it apart. If people don't know what they are doing, that is a different problem. Unfortunately, there is a host of people who don't know squat about how land works in the game.

I dedicated all 10 of my 10 votes to separating the searches, I think it was possible one of the best improvements LL has made in the past 6 months, it makes buying mainland infinately easier.
And real user end improvements have been far between!