For me, the economics of the matter are that if I go Premium just for the sake of support, I would have to pay $72 USD a year, from which I would cash out the stipend and sign-up bonus and get back all but $9.59 of that fee over the course of the year. In subsequent years, I sell all my stipend and my net cost is $13.35 per year.
But that requires me to hand over that lump of cash every year to LL, for them to dole back out to me as an "allowance" that I simply do not need. Meanwhile, they sit there and get interest on my money. Why?
What is so wrong with allowing the option of my simply singing up for a year of decent support, for $14 USD? Or even less, considering I don't want any of the other "perks" of being Premium. No mainland land ownership. No free mainland tier. No 24 x 7 live chat hand-holding for "how do I...?" stuff that I can easily look up in the knowledgebase. Just give me the ability to report that somethng is broken, and expect that I can actually get the issue resolved. Is that so much to ask?
I would also like to know how this will be treated in the case of alts. If I run into a problem while I am logged on as one of my legal alts, do I have to log off and log back in again as my Premium account, and TP to that spot (if it's even possible), just to get the decent support? Probably. Am I going to sign up all my alts as Premium, so I can get support no matter which account I am logged in with? H*** no.
With the advent of universal age/ID validation (and don't kid yourselves, it's going to be mandatory before you know it), will we be able to link our alt accounts formally (from LL's perspective, and not as public information), so one Premium master account and 4 alts, or however many legitimate and validated ones you have, can be treated by support as the single real person that they really are?
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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05-18-2007 10:03
_____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
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Oryx Tempel
Registered User
Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
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05-18-2007 10:25
I'm assuming that JIRA will stick around.. in that case, anyone can report that something is broken, correct? OK, so it's not inworld, but if we're talking basic bugs, etc, JIRA is the current way to report this stuff. Region outages are also reported on the SL website, no need to be a premium member there.
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Zaphod Kotobide
zOMGWTFPME!
Join date: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,087
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@Ceera
05-18-2007 10:52
Out of curiosity, what examples would you have of break/fix scenarios where a support channel would be needed by basic accounts? There is the region-down form which I assume everyone would still have access to, but I'm thinking more along the lines of individual issues where a basic account might end up being left out in the cold. I read the blog entry again and I can see where you concern is..
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Dnali Anabuki
Still Crazy
Join date: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,633
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05-18-2007 10:58
Like it. I just wanna make sure that the live-chat I get at concierge level isn't just some guy reading computer-generated generic answers from India. I want to be able to talk intelligently with someone and skip all the garbage stuff. Me too Kenn, but talking intelligently with someone from India would be okay too, or where ever the person is as long as they can solve my problem then and there. This sounds great |
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Dnali Anabuki
Still Crazy
Join date: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,633
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Ceera is a great example
05-18-2007 11:06
I don't mind the idea of a Premium member getting the highest level of support. But from the sounds of it, except for a very limited range of specific issues, if you're NOT Premium, you get virtually no support AT ALL! That is alll well and good for "free, unverified" accounts. What they propose for the "Basic Level" is what I would expect for a trial account that someone didn't pay a cent for and that they didn't provide any valid ID for. Someone who NEVER paid anything into the game doesn't deserve much support. But those of us who are not Premium, but who ARE "Payment Info USED", or even "Payment Info on file"... Those of us who own land that happens to NOT be mainland... We deserve to at least get access to submit a ticket to the help desk system for submitting any normal trouble report. For Gods sake, if something is BROKEN I shouldn't have to upgrade my membership to report it so someone can get it FIXED. Let the Premiums get the hand-holding and live chat to help them on how to use a feature... No problem... But to say that a problem in-world can only get reported by a Premium member is insane. And does this also apply to abuse reports? Or is that a seperate issue? What if there is a problem that is affecting a whole sim that is NOT a "restart the sim please" situation? What if there is a griefer attack or some other issue where I need a Linden right here, right now? Sounds like even a Premium member can't get that type of support. I am a Basic member. Payment info Used. I'm also a very active content creator and an estate manager for 5 sims, and I own over 6000 M2 on a private island estate. I have absolutely no need for the weekly Premium stipend. I earn more L$ in-world than I can possibly spend, and the L$300 a week for Premium would hardly make a blip in my weekly income. The only time I have had to buy L$ in the last year was to fund a land purchase, and then I cashed out that much and more less than three weeks later, all from my in-world profits. I cash out L$ just about every week. So why do I want to pay more to LL to get an L$ Stipend that I will just turn around and sell? I don't WANT to buy mainland property, EVER. I will not buy un-managed land where land extortion and ad farms and rampant griefers are a way of life. I will only pay for land on private sims, where the sim owner and their estate managers regulate what goes on and stomp flat any would be land griefers. I'll never want Mainland while the Lindens refuse to police it in even the most elementary of ways. So the ONLY value to me for being Premium would be to get a decent level of support? That does not seem right. Can I subscribe JUST TO BETTER SUPPORT? Subtract the value of the L$ stipend, and don't give me any right to buy mainland, but DO give me full-service support? I might actually pay for that. I'm not asking for the live chat hand-holding. Just to be able to report what is broken and expect a reasonable resolution, or to be able to report trouble when it happens. Incidentally, my first post to the blog, which covered pretty much what was in this post and was in no way nasty or abusive, apparently was deleted by the moderator. A second post by me later, with just the three most critical questions in it, sailed right through. Isn't it wonderful how a moderator can skew the results by ignoring anything the least bit critical of their position? Ceera, I'm so glad you have managed your affairs the way you have; it makes you the poster child for someone who is a great contributer to SL but does it in the way that makes sense to you. Over and over again, your reasoned approach to your own relationship to SL and how you manage your stake in it has highlighted problems that could easily be overlooked. I would really recommend to Strife that he mention this to LL because it could represent a type of resident they may not consider when making their plans and you are probably not the only one to approach SL this way. I too live on an estate but I love having a stake in the mainland cause of the chaos and chance to interact with creative (and sometimes crazy) neighbors. To each their own. But you are a great example of a certain approach and I hope LL remembers to tailor some of their problem solving for people like you. Maybe the amount of $L they process in world with retail? Something like that. |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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05-18-2007 11:57
As for buying L$, remember, Linden Lab only gets a small transaction fee when you purchase L$ from the Lindex. It is a resident to resident trading system. LL doesn't pocket the USD used to purchase the L$. The residents who are selling do. No - remember that some of those L$ are sold by Supply Linden. Several million a month, in fact. Although LL may not make money from any given particular L$ purchase transaction, the general fact that "L$ are purchased" is a money maker for LL. When this support system ramps up, it will be difficult to sustain the argument that "there's no value in premium membership, I don't want to own mainland." Premium membership will now have a universal appeal in the form of enhanced support services. The problem is that people who do not want to own mainland, but who go Premium, will still be paying for the ability to do so and will probably feel conned by that fact. |
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Paul Llewelyn
Registered User
Join date: 9 Jul 2004
Posts: 86
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05-18-2007 12:07
Out of curiosity, what examples would you have of break/fix scenarios where a support channel would be needed by basic accounts? There is the region-down form which I assume everyone would still have access to, but I'm thinking more along the lines of individual issues where a basic account might end up being left out in the cold. I read the blog entry again and I can see where you concern is.. Well one situation would be a grid attack in progress in a particular sim. Quickly getting the infor to the lindens is often the only way to stop one before it spreads too far. |
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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05-18-2007 12:46
Out of curiosity, what examples would you have of break/fix scenarios where a support channel would be needed by basic accounts? There is the region-down form which I assume everyone would still have access to, but I'm thinking more along the lines of individual issues where a basic account might end up being left out in the cold. I read the blog entry again and I can see where you concern is.. Unable to be reported to the new support service by a non-Premium resident:
I could go on, but there are many, many situations that actually require a Linden or someone with admin rights to show up and do something. Maybe restart the sim, maybe deal with griefers, maybe locate some idiot's prim trash at 2000M over your parcel that is eating your prim allocation... And none of these are a "This region is down, and has been for 30 minutes" situation that we can report on the region down page. I've personally experienced all of the above issues. With the exceptin of the last one, where you could try to resolve that with multiple AR reports against the griefer, they are all things that affect all people in the region. With the exception of the last three, none of these can be handled by an Abuse Report... unless I want to AR Governor Linden for running the world poorly. And the above examples don't even begin to get into cases of clear TOS violations, like identifying a hooker in a club on the Adult Grid as actually being a 14 year old in RL. _____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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05-18-2007 17:57
Unable to be reported to the new support service by a non-Premium resident:
I could go on, but there are many, many situations that actually require a Linden or someone with admin rights to show up and do something. Maybe restart the sim, maybe deal with griefers, maybe locate some idiot's prim trash at 2000M over your parcel that is eating your prim allocation... And none of these are a "This region is down, and has been for 30 minutes" situation that we can report on the region down page. I've personally experienced all of the above issues. With the exceptin of the last one, where you could try to resolve that with multiple AR reports against the griefer, they are all things that affect all people in the region. With the exception of the last three, none of these can be handled by an Abuse Report... unless I want to AR Governor Linden for running the world poorly. And the above examples don't even begin to get into cases of clear TOS violations, like identifying a hooker in a club on the Adult Grid as actually being a 14 year old in RL. A lot of these are good points - the region ones should be added to the "Region offline" reporting in my opinion. The one I highlighted in red shouldnt be a Linden concern - Since a non-premium member doesnt own any Linden Land. The ones that are TOS/CS violations - I didnt see the Blog post say Basic members cant file Abuse Reports. Im sure they wouldnt do that. That would open Basic Members up to being targets. |
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Jacques Groshomme
Registered User
Join date: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 355
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05-18-2007 18:45
I applaud this move.
The current system is in such bad shape because its been inundated with "support requests" that weren't valid support requests - stuff that should've been abuse reports or things that are answered in the knowledgebase. People are entirely too quick to jump and call for help or clog up the Live Help lines (before it was rightfully put to rest) with stupid crap. This waste made it harder for the people with legitimate concerns to get answers to their rightful questions. |
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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05-18-2007 20:44
People are entirely too quick to jump and call for help or clog up the Live Help lines (before it was rightfully put to rest) with stupid crap. This waste made it harder for the people with legitimate concerns to get answers to their rightful questions. Thats if you even got a One and/or USEFUL LH person. Otherwise it was well........... |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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05-18-2007 21:08
All of these are ARs and non-premium users will still be able to file them. |
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Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
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05-18-2007 21:23
Im in the conceirge category so- sounds good to me! LOL
Looks like a nice step as long as we actually start getting some answers  ATM im missing thousands of inventory and it would be nice to get a response. I know it comes up for them a lot but regardless, dealing with each individual is just a part of running a business. I hope this step leads to a more decent Sl |
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Matthew Dowd
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,046
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05-19-2007 02:27
I'm sorry, i can't see what the fuss is about.
$10 a month for support seems pretty low to me (even ignoring any other things you get like the stipend and 512sqm mainland)- I think that works out at around one Starbucks cup of coffee a week. Those who make enough L$ in Secondlife could always convert them to US$ and cover the cost that way. The more entrepreneurial might save up their stipends, buy a 512sqm block of mainland, rent it out and cover the entire support cost via stipend and rental. Private Island owners, are by virtue of being a private island owner It sill sounds a good deal to me |
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
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05-19-2007 02:36
It may not be perfect, but it is a start. Honestly, where do you draw the line. People have been complaining that they really don't get much for their premium accounts. People complain about the CS. It has been proven that LL just can't handle allowing everyone full access to all the resources, it is just too much for what can be afforded. So, what do they do? The try to solve all the problems. They improve support for premium and island holders. They still have basic support for basic accounts. And there is always the AR and [email]support@secondlife.com[/email] for basics. They have just added more for the people that pay more. If you have a better way to split things up without overloading the systems, I would love to hear them.
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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05-19-2007 02:45
No ..No.........and No......
Why don`t people understand the differance between crying/bitching just plain disoranization, and start thinking if the proper direction and oranization was there to start with there would be more happy users. You know a company that is well oranized is also has a better user base that are happy. Usagi |
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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05-19-2007 06:31
Do understand that I am not opposed to the idea that the best support should go to the Premium members, and to those willing to pay a fee to LL in some other way, such as a subscription for non-Premium support services.
What worries me is the possibility that many people will be left defenseless in situations where immeciate action is needed. You wouldn't find it acceptable if a large part of a town was told the only way to get help from the fire department was to send in a form by postal mail, would you? By the time you get a response that way, your home has already burned down. Abuse reports and frantic e-mails to a mail drop that might, if you are lucky, get a response weeks later, are of no use when the problem at hand requires immediate aid. The only thing I am asking them to consider is to leave the door open for rapid resolution of Break/Fix issues. Not hand-holding. Not "How do I..." issues. But rapid resolution of "This function is BROKEN" or "There is a serious breech of the TOS happening NOW" issues. Getting the attention of the makers to fix a broken product is not premium level support. It's basic level customer service. I would also feel much better if they would clearly indicate that this new program does NOT replace the existing AR process. That point is still very unclear. In the long run, I'll probably have to make this account Premium, but I think it is a major waste - like being forced into buying a full restaurant meal when all I really wanted was a coffee to go. _____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
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Tybalt Brando
Catalyst
Join date: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 347
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05-19-2007 06:35
Wouldn't the issue of stuff not getting resolved immediately be effected by the news they put out that Sim Owners will be taking care of most of the small stuff without LL recently?
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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05-19-2007 10:07
All of these are ARs and non-premium users will still be able to file them. Are you sure about this because I seem to remember them being in the process of merging the abuse and help systems together into some wierd giant ticket system saying that inworld abuse reports will get dealt with much faster. I also remember people posting at how streamlining this has made dealing with griefers nearly instantaneous. I will see when the system comes out. I do hope that everyone gets the basic right to report abuse or there will be some serious issues here of people who are not premium members being specifically targetted and harassed, griefed etc relentlessly until they log off and without any fear or even worry about looking over their shoulders for the "enforcers" . IN essence it looks from this as if griefers will be able do carry on for quite awhile and crash sims if the only people around are free members and can't file a ticket to get the griefers removed. This is not good to put the weight of griefer reporting on only a portion of the users, but from what I have read in the last couple of weeks it does look like the AR system will be a part of this new ticket system which only premiums can access. |
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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05-19-2007 10:09
Wouldn't the issue of stuff not getting resolved immediately be effected by the news they put out that Sim Owners will be taking care of most of the small stuff without LL recently? Yes there is a new system but its voluntary and Linden Labs has stated as such so if you own a sim but aren't around to enforce things enough you dont have to use this system you can still use the old Linden Labs system. |
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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05-19-2007 10:12
$10 a month for support seems pretty low to me (even ignoring any other things you get like the stipend and 512sqm mainland)- I think that works out at around one Starbucks cup of coffee a week. $10 bucks a month is fine for some things what its not fine for is to pay it so you can submit AR reports and notify linden labs of certain things that are harming the entier community. Essentially this makes no sense and if you read the discussion you will see that this is what's being said. No one should be paying 10 bucks a month for basic "protection" against being griefed from Linden labs nor should they be paying 10 bucks a month to submit a ticket about a huge pile of lag causing flames or giant penises that should be removed no matter who sees it for various reasons... |
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Matthew Dowd
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,046
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05-19-2007 10:13
You wouldn't find it acceptable if a large part of a town was told the only way to get help from the fire department was to send in a form by postal mail, would you? No - but on the other hand, i do pay an annual fee (called Council Tax in my neck of the world) of which some goes towards funding the firebrigade. |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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05-19-2007 10:18
$10 bucks a month is fine for some things what its not fine for is to pay it so you can submit AR reports and notify linden labs of certain things that are harming the entier community. Essentially this makes no sense and if you read the discussion you will see that this is what's being said. If you rent, and there are problems, you contact your landlord and he or she is the one that will escalate it to LL if need be. You never had support rights to private island land, only the sim owner does. |
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Matthew Dowd
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,046
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05-19-2007 10:20
$10 bucks a month is fine for some things what its not fine for is to pay it so you can submit AR reports As far as I could tell the blog was about support requests not ARs. I don't think LL has announced any proposed changes to how ARs work at the moment. But then in RL, part of my council tax mentioned above in relation to the firebrigade also goes to funding the police force, so the idea of having to pay even at a nominal level for such things is not alien in the UK and I suspect not alien in many other places too. This seems a heck of a lot of fuss over what is basically the cost of four cups of coffee! |
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Wilhelm Neumann
Runs with Crayons
Join date: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 2,204
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05-19-2007 10:21
yes but we have alarm systems that dont require you to actualy manually submit a report to get the fire cleaned up when we aren't there etc. If you look at it the way your looking at it your basically saying that everyone should pay money just to keep your place free of fire as well even if they dont own a house which is possible in linden labs to have no home at all and just build in sandboxes etc and tour the sites and shop. This means you want me to pay 10 bucks so that if i go to your store or mall and see a pile of penises I can report them for you. Well hate to say it that just isn't going to happen and all that work will be left for when you logon and if your customers send you 2 million chats saying they refuse to shop in your store until you clean up the mess and your club goes empty because of dancing mario brothers until you login to clean up the mess its gonna be a problem and not for the guy who is not paying 10 bucks, it will however be a problem for you the guy who is just a free member not having this option will simply shop elsewhere or go to another bar until the mess is cleaned up
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