Is Second Life a true 4D game?

With all the LAGGGGG I would say it is more like 1D game most of the time

If you watch the "Elegant Universe" show with Brian Greene that aired on PBS a while back - it's available on Netflix as 3-4 discs too - it explains string theory a little bit. And I love this paraphrased excerpt a lot to explain these "hidden" dimensions:

"Think of an ant crawling along a cable. He sees forward and backward along the cable, and around the cable. However, as we step away and look at things from our view, we know that "around the cable" is actually two dimensions. But the ant is too "insignificant" (for lack of a better term) to know this, and just simply sees the surface of the cable (going around) as one dimension. That is similar to a view of string theory - we are just not in a place mentally/socially/etc to "see" these extra dimensions."

Dunno if that helps, but that is how I try to wrap my head around it. That can also tie into the Flatland book concepts.

As far as the OP's question, I think SL is 4D with relation to RL dimensions and time. So is the intarweb - SL is just the next version, right?

MM

"Nobody" is the common misleading signature for the real answer which is
"Everybody".

However that one is'nt even inaccurate as it is a really everybody combined
while pretending not to be (creating IT all), while posing as these very individual and separate beings.

Because agreeing to forget the Real Origins of Truth upon incarnation
to the World Stage make the Dramas of Our Shared Sensory Illusions seem more convincing?

To that the term of Everybody as the creator of our Universe in a Cube,
is once again inaccurate because it is more likely One Being in an attempt
to escape the ultimate boredom by subdividing Itself into exponential levels
of Identity Subcomponents each charged with a measure of perception
of self directed individuality and ordered to create your own world using
your own imagination, in RL that is. lol.

And for those of you who have humored me this far on the philosophical
ramblings of this admitted amatuer, thank you.

Brian Greene's books are wonderful, I also read Stephen Hawking.
String Theory is fascinating, and to the above poster requesting empirical
evidence to the proposals of string theory (Hiro Queso) that will definately
depend on how small we can create our measuring devices.

Which really means that I think that we are absolutely limited by the
restraints of our mutually perceived conceptual context.

For example I believe that a GUT (Grand Unified Theory) will never be fully
solved unless or until a variable such as a recognized non-anthropomorphic
force of intention is included into these thinkers calculations.

I liked your post also Winter.

Getting back to empirical experience for a moment, within the Human realm
I have never seen an object of extreme complexity created without great
effort by humans.

And since effort requires volition, And we are completely surrounded by
naturally occurring objects of extreme complexity in RL, this proves to me
that there is a force of Intention that is Not of Human Origin.

Ok getting too close to Metaphysics there, sorry hehe.

So the answers IMHO to the OP and to Hiro, is...it depends, not on which
direction you are looking in but HOW you are looking at it.

The world appears to have x dimensions, but look again, or close your eyes
then look, now how many dimensions are there now?

Once again it is in my humble opinion that all these things around us are dynamically interactive so these creations are never complete, but perpetually being created.

And the Creator of the Cube is really one person pretending to be many
people pretending to not be creating it, haha and instead tossing out these
incredibly outlandish stories of creation.

Wow did I just say all this stuff outloud?

Just Kidding?

I love these somewhat open ended questions.

Runs and hides also. )

There isn't any environment where living beings are involved without the 4th dimension. Even in 3D worlds with a static environment the community evolves and changes over time.

SL's possible 5th dimension is the identity. We can't ever be sure of that. A stranger could be an old acquaintance. A single person can run two or more clients. Have you ever participated in a chat as two persons, having different opinions on a subject? You end up questioning yourself, literally. That's truly a new dimension. Or is it really just talking to oneself?

Aside from identity (name), there's also appearance. Virtual worlds allow far greater appearance changes than a real environment. I remember my days as an enchanter in Everquest, when I sat at the gates of Freeport in the shape of a cactus. Just as an illusion spell, but I looked like every other cactus around, nothing indicated that this particular cactus was controlled by another player. I basically became a prim, no one recognized me as a human being until I addressed them. I gave some new players simple quests, like "slay 10 rats to help lift an evil spell and turn me back into human form". Of course, I gave them some money for their efforts was just an interesting experience to turn into an interactive NPC (in other words, I almost died of laughing).

Maybe it's a 36DD game.

George Orwell’s 1984 did a fair job of perusing those variables Ishtara. If you have read the book you may well remember the concept of black/white, that is the ability to hold two separate opposing viewpoints in your mind and act on each one in accordance with the current perceived reality.

That even included defying what we may perceive as reality Infiniview, do you remember the section in the book where Winston Smith is informed by O’ Brien the Inner Party member that if necessary he could float of the ground because The Party controls reality which is perceived only within the mind

Getting back to Second Life and f/l comparisons I was reading today about the search for Higgs Boson a yet undiscovered part of the universe that is absolutely fundamental to matter. Apparently if they cannot find it we are all in deep poo because we will then not understand How It All Works, and will have to go back to the drawing board.

In Second Life prims are the ultimate particle, without prims there is nothing but a void. Now if you take your average sim the more prims in it the slower things become as griefers have sadly discovered.

One ponders if there is a 4 field theory that is applicable to Second Life, that is matter = prims, energy = scripts, space = space in sims, and time = duration in Second Life.

One thought that occurs to me after the goo attack yesterday is that in Second Life we already have the equivalent of E = mc2, because all goo attacks depend on a prim and a script. How many prims and how many scripts do you need to emulate the r/l equivalent of an H Bomb? and more to the point is there an effective defense

Now that's a true statement

I have to admit, I never read the book. It's always good to try and see every possible viewpoint on a subject, to test one's preferred point of view, which altoo easy becomes a fixed position. But acting on all possible viewpoints at once? I personally try to choose a single one that makes the most sense to me. Well, I guess I should read this classic sometimes

Well, it's a slightly different situation since weapons of mass destruction are constructed from limited and more or less controlled ressources. Perhaps LL should do the same? Limit the endless supply of prims. The trusted system which is supposed to limit scripting functions could, in addition, add a certain prim allowance to "untrusted" accounts. Rezzing of 100 prims per day (on the ground, not as body attachment). Hm... it would have to be based on the prim creator, not the prim owner, to effectively fight grey goo.

sorry I asked

M=Membrane theory, as our universe is part of a mutiverse, by which the membranes of two 'verses interacting thus creating yet more 'verses...and so on.

If there was no time...there would be no motion...thus no interaction of anything.

So, "time" is definatly something "more" other than arbitrary.

Maybe TIME IS GOD...

[evil:laugh]Muhahaaaahaaaahaaaaaaaa!!!![/evil:laugh]

Hmm, I know we have been having a little harmless fun on this thread but it just shows you how new ideas can sometimes emerge. To my almost certain knowledge a prim creation limit has never been suggested before and that would certainly work in terms of preventing grid attacks of the usual kind.

Lets say for all unverified accounts you define a daily limit that is reasonable and includes clothes allowances on all mainland continents. And for those people who wish to create or build but who are unverified, you could waive that rule on individual Islands with of course the Estate Owners permission. A similar stance could be taken on sandbox Linden Islands.

That would therefore mean more or less status quo for all people BUT with one exception insomuch as you have severely limited the ability of unverified account people to create harm on the mainland where prims can spread from sim to sim.

I do not believe that prims can migrate from Islands to the mainland by script commands alone therefore if that were true this stance would completely contain any problems, and prevent the main grid becoming contaminated

If other more knowledgeable people than I also think this is a good idea and it is viable and will work we could put this to Gov Linden for an opinion/review

Comments welcome

Regards

John

Here's an interesting thought:

How can time be a dimension if it's not possible to move through it at our own pace?

I would say Time is more of a force because we have no control over it... It just is what it is. Whereas up down, left right, in out, are something we can individually control in every object in the world. Nothing is ever the same as it was before. Time is always constant until the earth falls off its axis.

Also, I have to say, 4D would not be SL scratching your ass for you... That would be technically still 3D. Even though graphics are 3D from the screen back, they could be the exact opposite, but that would still be 3D facing two different directions. Thus, still 3D.

This is an absolutely excellent topic.

If you jump from an airplane, you fall. You can dive and reduce air resistance or you can fall spread eagle and slow your descent a little, but you still keep falling.

Same then when you're born. You just keep falling through time until the horrifyingly inevitable _\*splat*/_.

Some games do give people control over time. They can adjust the speed at which things happen, they can jump backwards to save points...

I think one of the more interesting "temporal aspects" of games is "persistence".

First person shooters, if there were any persistent attributes they're usually limited to: Name, rankings, appearance, and 'tribe/clan'. Most everything else is lost between games.

MMORPGS, have that and players inventories and histories are persistent too... but most worlds quickly forget the changes any player has made... if players are able to change the world at all.

Some MMORPGS allow players to buy/assemble persistent bases or guild halls, but most are invisible to other players unless invited or under special circumstances.

And then there are realms where the customers themselves can design and create persistent content that will, in some cases, outlive them.


Anyway, just some random thoughts.

It's kind of funny, the level of involvement, investment, activity, interactivity and such can dictate whether something is merely entertainment, or recreation... a hobby.. or work. SL is one of the few 'games' in existence where it's customers can choose which they want it to be for them.

--
The only thing that isn't 4d is 'nothing.'.

Why should time depend on a small green planet orbiting a star and classified as 'Mostly Harmless'?



Thoroughly agree!

Very well put! How about another word? ... institution.
I get excited just at the thought of logging in next time!

Are you hinting at my pet shop, the EnvironMental Institution?
I know, shameless advertizing. I couldn't resist. Blame the sugar high (had ice cream for breakfast).

i have been thinking about that lately, i have been reading michio kaku's parallel worlds, and playing lots of games where the character and the player are brought close together (like in .hack or in contact), and maybe, just maybe, this fourth dimension, could be the abstraction of dimension. i mean, if everything can be viewed physically in 3D by a standard start of the 21st century human being, then the 4th dimension will be a dimension of the mind, unlocking the possibility of seeing in 5D, 6D etc. the reference to orwell was on the point : in order to see the universe unfolding, we need to tune our minds to other things than mere physical representations of it - which is basically the thing we all agree on. the 4th dimension could therefore be this 4th wall, this invisible wall separating us from the possibilities of our minds, of our creations. the relations between what is not (virtual) and what is (real) are narrowing and influencing each others, in both ways. the 4d could be the Meta.

I think I have enough prims left in my quota to rez this...

I have a Hyper-hyper-cube (well, a shadow of a shadow of one... rendered in 3d, (How can it be 3d on a flat monitor? Because you can rotate around it in time... when you take the average of 2d and 4d, you get 3d.... of course. )

I'll leave it by the hot air balloon to The Particle Lab today, if anyone is curious.

This kind of conversation reminds me of a question.

"Remember when the World used to be flat?"

I have actually used that question in conversation, and people would nod and say "yeah".
Of course the World was never flat. But most of the people nodding knew what I meant.

That is, that there was a time when most of the people in the world "believed" the world to
be flat.

There were people who lived in those times who did not agree and felt that the world was
round. To speak openly of these thoughts was to convince almost anyone listening that you
were certainly insane.

For there were powerful interests who felt threatened by that sort of talk and had no trouble
putting such people to death for speaking in this manner. So in that to speak that way could
be a life threatening act, perhaps saying what you believe about Truth was/or is an insane
act. lol.

Perhaps not so much anymore depending on where in the world you live.

But the point is that Truth is rarely determined by the masses for the masses, and the
Truth that is available to the masses is rarely of a quality that is meets the actual definition
of Truth.

However in the US and many other countries where information is freer, the actual
truth is then often lost in the myriad of available options proffered AS truth that is anything
but.



I am pretty sure I read the book 1984, however i beleive it was in the late 70's that I did
so. So its a little blurry.

Your comment reminds me of the story "The Emporors New Clothes", for those who may have missed this classic fable. Everyone in the kingdom was so used to the Emporor's
eccentricities and since he was the most powerful person in their local social network everyone just went along with whatever his current delusion was. In the story a young
boy points out that the Emporor was actually nude. Which of course caused a huge debacle
and a string of denials.


I believe that the popularity of objective thought rose in proportion to the level at which
common citizens were allowed to keep the earnings of their own efforts. Referring to the
Industrial Revolution many technologies were born that sold not due to government
acceptance but that these things were actually in demand.

So Nature is the final arbiter of any of our preconceptions whether they be shared or not.
The Government Controlled Reality that allowed floating off of the ground was accomplished only through mutual pretensions and would clearly not appear that way
to the unindoctrinated.

However there are many seemingly multiple opposing viewpoints that at first glance
may appear to be in conflict but this is only due to the perspective in which they are being
viewed.

Is a pair of ducks a paradox, not usually however if they are arguing then they may
cause one.

Let's consider a hypothetical situation in which your AV moved in all the ways that you controlled it but simultaneously had a perception of its own in its local context and "thought'
that It was choosing these motions.

In addition if you could have a conversation with it and chose to ask it "What color is
the substance my monitor is encased in?" do you think it would really have any chance at all of answering correctly.

Seems similar to asking ourselves what color is the outside of the cube that our Universe
is enclosed within?

As long as we are inside the cube it will remain pretty hard to ever know the answer.
Not to say that we should not keep trying however, smiles.

Maybe we can invent some kind of external Universe telescopic camera eye detachment
thingy, (actually thought I saw one on SLEX.).

The Elegant Universe Series is fantastic by the way, in the final segment they actually
speculate on the existence of parallel Universes using a loaf of bread as a visual aid.

My final point would be that It the Universe, Macrocosm, Multiverse or whatever is Waaay
bigger and more complex than any of our preconceptions, that is my bet anyhow.

The trouble with truth is that if you get the good stuff it Always messes up your current belief system.

I have been told that my preoccupation with the fringes of abstraction sometimes blinds
me to the simpler normal truths that are right in front of me.

My favourite expression on this is by the late, great Douglas Adams which I sadly paraphrase as I don't have the text here:

I've not read Salmon of a Doubt yet but I'm sure he'd have loved SL.

Avatars do not age, objects do not decay or wear out, so the passage of time has no real meaning in SL. Heck, we can even control where the sun is in the sky client-side. No, Sl is not 4D.

Actually objects/prims do decay in world. If you create a build as an avatar and close the account without deleting the prim, in the absence of it being deleted or sold on to a third party it will decay over a period of days, at least that is my own understanding

Of course time exists in SL; just because things progress a little differently in SL when moving through that dimension, doesn't mean that dimension doesn't exist.

You tell those who are on $L/hr that time has no meaning in SL

A true 4D world (SL is not a game) would feature the ability to move back and forth in time at leisure. SL is 3.5D in that we are forced to move along with time. Like those sucky mario levels where it's always scrolling.

We may not be able to change time... but can't change the size of the earth either.

However, we can measure both space and time accurately enough.... for me that's enough to say yes, it's 4d.