Is there a need for a virtual real estate code of ethics ?

Wow doing the math there:
65000 x 4.3 = 279500L$ per month
279500L$ sold on Lindex for 267 per 1 USD = 1010 USD a month

Take away your 295 a month tier and your making a killing!

Thats over 2x's as much as I get for my land, maybe we should all set our prices so high

this is unfortunately human nature "ruling your own" never has worked or will work there is always someone who is gonna mishandle it. This is why I tend to "stick with the system" even if it doesn't work very well. Humans have proven over time and its simply maginified in SL that when they have freedom they simply can't manage it responsibly despite what people think the users of SL are going to be no different hence the need for outside regulation. In this case I consider outside regulation to be Linden Labs if it was the internet at large it would be the rules and regulation related to country alone.

Wild west is fun and nice but when "free speech" and "freedom" backfires as it is at present it has to be taken away lol for our own safety although some may argue and whatnot I dont see that anyone has proven in SL to this day that as a group of individuals we are any better then any other group ^^

regulation is needed yes but in the end the country/government back it up if linden lab wotn do this then no i dont agree that the land dealers should be regulating themselves in a vacuum. With no outside governance it just becomes another source of power to be abused and it WILL be abused maybe not by you but by someone

I agree it would be abused if control was put into the hands of those who had personal interst in land, thats why I suggested early on that anyone holding a considerable amount of land coundnt be part of the ruling parties.

AS far as abuses goes, yes ther is always going to be abuse within any type of organization but to a certain point, it doesnt compare with the amount of abuses that happen on a regular basis without any kind of committee, organization, or regulatory commission

Hmmm, do you consider cutting land into 16m squares providing additional value in terms of community, Captain?

This is super interesting stuff. Keep me posted on this or I'll keep myself posted or something, lol.

You can't add value to land, first thing that happens when the buyer completes the transaction, return all the sh*t, terraform it 4 meters above or below adjacent parcels, flatten it, and put up your own junk.

There is no such thing as adding value to resold land in Second Life. Let's stay real about this.

There is no service provided to the community in the process of reselling land. There is simply money to be made.

Keep it real.

I dunno - I suppose if someone put Top Quality housing on a landscaped property and sold it as value added (basically the value of the Top quality house added to the land) then you could call it Realty.

And sold blocks of neighborhoods like this.

Im not aware of this actually happening on any Mainland.


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One thought of an "Ethic" Id still like to see is the Landbots either voluntarily or be required to NOT PURCHASE land for 0L or 1L.

Oh? While I'm sure each and every regulation on the buying and selling of real estate is justified on the grounds of "protecting the little guy," I'm more of the opinion myself that many of those regulations are there to enhance the power and wealth of Realtors.

See for example:

http://www.realestatejournal.com/buysell/agentsandbrokers/20050819-wsj.html
http://3oceansrealestate.com/blog/when-realtors-lobby-who-wins.html
http://www.massnear.com/html.taf?file=near_benefits.html&_UserReference=0A0A0A0146EB19A53E31359648CD44AA281C
http://therealtygram.typepad.com/realtygram_blogger/2006/04/whoremaster_ran.html
http://therealtygram.typepad.com/realtygram_blogger/national_assn_of_realtorsr/index.html

It seems RL Realtors lobby for regulations that keep their commissions high, keep certain kinds of companies out of Real Estate, diminish health care coverage, prevent people from protecting their homes from foreclosure through bankruptcy, and prevent people from opting-out of unsolicited calls, mail, and other forms of solicitation (e.g. flyers, door-hangers) from Realtors.

Definately getting of the point of the original topic now.
*steering back*

Mainland ethics though with a few annoyances like 16m cuts is pretty set in stone, Linden Labs offer no covenants, and has a procedure they follow so this post deals with Private sim land

1. A private party has to first to establish a website solely for Simland

2 Then, collect as many different covenants as possible.

2. This organization should also start logging common complaints from sim land owners(not estate owners) and categorizing them according to complaint type and estate owner, with the ability of a Q&A forum to offer rebuttle incase of spiteful and malicious complaints

3. A full posting of estate owner covenant policies- This would serve as a Comparative Market Analysis (CMA)

4 A form of rating system should be installed on said website with both text feedback and more importantly reply functions

5 This should ultimately be setup to function if needed with impartial mediators such as the SLBB http://www.slbb.biz

And most importantly, it would have to be atleast acknowledged by Linden Labs as a method of grading and interpreting Private land sales and ethics outside the mainland

Here we have another conspiracy theorist folks!, lets not try to remember regulatory commissions wher formed after private enterprise scammed countless millions from individuals in California (remember Blue Sky sales) and after it was done in Florida, ever here of anyone purchasing swamp land?

No cHex, do not dillute what a organization can or cannot do for the better or worst of SL, not you, who is a avid supportor of libsecondlife, copybot, landbot, and every other thing that has came into second life that you decided to get behind just cause it cost real people money.

Heh. You're throwing out the stipulative definitions and ad hominem arguments now...wow, what a case you make.

I do not deny that there are unscrupulous land dealers out there, or that people get cheated or purchase real estate without really understand what they're getting in RL. What I do deny is that there has been no cheating or buyers' remorse even after NAR came along. But your argument substitute may have misled people into thinking I was stupid enough not to know people get cheated.

BTW, I do support libsecondlife and landbots (I think if everyone had a landbot, then there would be no special advantage to those who have them already now). I don't support copybot, though I never thought copybots represented the end of SL civilization as we knew it. And I don't consider land swooping people who naively try to transfer land by setting it for sale for L$1 to anybody or who make and confirm a pricing mistake ethical (with or without bots), though neither do I consider it a violation of the ToS.

Anyway, your response to me illustrates what I fear will be thrown at land agents who don't join someone's new Land Agents With a Code of Ethics organization: innuendo and slander. It amounts to a kind of blackmail to get people to march in step--in other words, more power to whoever controls the organization.

Somehow I don't think one of the bullet points in your Code of Ethics will be "Do not slander a land agent simply for refusing to subscribe to this organization's Code. Do not market ourselves as more ethical than others who do not subscribe to this organization's Code."

NOTHING anyone does is going to solve a problem 100% EX: RL casinos spend millions of dollars to stop cheaters, but yet, there is cheaters. EX: Society builds a legal system to uphold laws, but yet laws are broken. EXociety builds rehabilitation centers to retrain thier offenders but yet some continue to offend

No one ever claimed the not a person has been cheated since the inception of NAR, but how many people have NOT been harmed since a oversight committee was formed such as NAR, or informational organizations like BBB, or a protection agency like SPARC.

No your not going to stop all bad dealings no matter what you do, but you can limit it and make people more aware of those that are doing the bad dealings.

Taking the narrow view that if you cant stop 100% of the problems, then its best to not even try to stop any of it, is indeed shortsighted. I would hope that everyone in SL cares enough about each other person that they would all try and pull together to make a better place where the cheaters, and bad dealers are separated and shamed, and drove out of our society.

Simple put again, and Im not afraid to say it, if you resist a code of ethics, then your the reason a code of ethics should be put in place. No no good person would want to oppose something that can help people.

cHex you mention land agents, for what I say is not directed towords land agents, since they work primarily on the mainland, Im talking about a coherent guide to Private sim land transactions..... but cHex, you do run a bot dont you?, I wonder why you would be opposed!!!! LOL

There are some things I would like to see happen in regards to land selling in SecondLife.

1. I would like to see a full ban on splitting a parcel to anything less that the minimum tier. (512sq). There is no need to be able to split a piece of land up smaller than that...and the parcels that are for sale should be in quantities divisable by 512. Hey I even see a way to impliment the immediate change of system being that the Lindens offer an instant buyback of land smaller than 512 at $1per sq. The land purchased by LL should then be deemed "unbuyable" and trees could be planted. I for one would be more than happy to spend my time in world planting trees..and I bet there would be no shortage of volunteers.

2. A limit on the amount of prims placed on "for sale" land would be nice. Maybe make some standard "for sale" type signs than can be placed on the middle square of any plot when the land is set for sale. For this to work I believe the Lindens would need to improve the details on "group purchased land" including the ability for members to be messaged when a plot of land is sold... thus negating the necessity for scripted signs for land sale.

3. An ABSOLUTE ban on scripted objects on land sale. No spinners... no particles.... no scripts whatsoever.

4. All land for sale to be automatically reset to its original state. Stopping the ability to terraform a plot of land for sale..this would give everyone an ability to have an idea of what terraforming could be done to the land after purchase. (with a little research into terraforming limits anyway).

Now... before I go on.. One of the things I now do in secondlife is buy and sell land. (boy I can hear those burning torches coming up the drive already).. and I tell you, some of the practices of some of the "land barons" in game are downright dirty.. but I have to say that some of you guys are far too quick to paint this practise with a tarred brush.
Do not think...for one single minute, that all the people in secondlife that buy and sell land are "here for one thing only...to make money". I am here to have fun!!! Yes, I make some money, but that is not my sole reason for being here. I have tried many business ideas in Secondlife...to accompany my fun and finally...after 2 years, I have found something that allows me to pay my tier.
I have read comments that people like myself put nothing back into the community of secondlife..and I can tell you that that is just not true. First and foremost..we spend money!!! Yep...we ..like most other SL citizens wear clothes, own furniture, have hair, have houses, scripted objects, gestures and the like. We go and visit nice builds and donate to the owners and builders that deserve a little help along the way. I have done rebuilds for people who have had problems with their houses and prim limits.. for no charge and spent time trying to find that "perfect" plot of land for people with the right attitude. Aside from that, most land owners pay massive amounts of tier. Sure.. we sometimes get it back..and then some, but land buying and selling is not the "risk free, money making enterprise" that a lot of you seem to think.

Now...when we are finished bashing and regulating the land buying sector of secondlife, I wonder how many of you will help to regulate the building industry of secondlife. Surely we need to do something about that? perhaps then we could stop some of the revolting and damn ugly builds that scatter our landscape. Oh... then perhaps we could get some sort of code of ethics from weapons manufacturers in this place too? I mean..RL has regulations in place for who can own a weapon, yet in SL we seem to focus on selling weapons to people that really shouldnt go near a pointed stick. Then the clubbing industry definately needs some sort of regulating, and the sex industry could use a shake up...hell... have you tried to catch public transpot in Secondlife? its unclean unsafe and most trains plough straight through the ground when crossing a sim.

Although I see a need to get some ethics in land sales, I cant see how we can target one area and not target all areas. If we need to impliment a set of rules and conditions for land sale then surely we need to do the same for every single aspect of this game.

Alice

Points well taken Alice.

As for suggestion #1, sounds like a good idea, but that would have to be impletemented soley on LL side

2 & 3 I dont think would be possible since much land is sold with objects therefore requiring land to be near objectless would prove to be a type of distruction, sooner or later SL will have historical sites that would need to be protected.

4 I believe would cause some loss in esthetic value of land, since many improvements actually enhance the desirability of the plot.

I think land sales and land agents are what put SL where it is now as far as recognition and press, if it had not been for Barons like ACS and others getting press reviews just about everywher I would think that many would still consider SL as a novel idea and not a real community where you can make a empire. no amount of money has been invested in any other aspect of SL like has been invested in RAW land.

I have lived my SL life with one motto and have stuck by it firmly. It has been my business model and my allbeit advice. "What is true in RL is true in SL".

If there is a need for something in RL then there is a need for it in SL. IF regulation is required in RL for whatever reason, then surely that same reason applies in SL.

Linden Labs no doubt has been caught offguard with SL's growth and popularity, surely in 2003 when they opened the doors it was a differnt place, and they wouldnt have ever thought there would be a need for regulation committees, Business Bureau's, ATM's, offsite salesplaces like SLEX or anything else, but, without speaking for LL themselves I think they probably see the needs for a more ordered way of Second Life, thus they have curbed ageplay, gaming and other things.

its not whether or not someone likes the idea of ethics codes or committees or regulatory commissions in SL. What the individual wants is mute, the fact is, these things will come. for the greater good of the community. Like it or not. We have a chance to be a part of it, or not.
THAT IS THE CHOICE WE HAVE TO MAKE

ON points 2 and 3 It would be totally possible to transfer objects to someone who wants them, PRIOR tp the sale of land if necessary. If you take a fly around the plots for sale in the higher price bracket.. you will quickly see that most "objects" that are sold with land are done so purely for the point of trying to get people to pay more. I can think of one particular "player" who places casinos on land intended for sale (at an astronomical price).. in an attempt of "blackmail" if you will. Holding the sim to ransom if you like. For those people that like to sell "complete" plots, It would be easy to sell the land..then offer a "voucher" to the purchaser that entitleds you to have the land sculptured or objects placed after sale.
Point 4 is purely for the reason that people dont know what they are getting when they buy land. Sure it is flat... but is it flat at the highest terrafomred point or lowest? are you going to be able to add valleys or hills? you have no idea when you buy land. I will be the first to admit that the best selling plots are the 100% flat ones... but a lot of people are thoroughly disappointed to find they cant do much with the land after purchase, setting it to "default" would be a way that people would know what they are getting.

Alice

Ahh if only! lol

No as it says "less than"! The actual figure will most likely come out at .7 or less.

But the real point is that I wont be demanding your life savings to buy a deed that is meaningless just so I can buy a Porsche.

The intention being to get back to communities and away from profiteering.

I'm even considering a residents charter regarding island issues on a democratic 1 renter 1 vote basis and also a decreasing rent based on group revenues.

So, I hope you can see that while I will make a profit, it wont be excessive, and that the overall intention is not money related..................

Comments anyone?????

Like the idea of a demoncratic sim, opps I mean democratic, I thik all decisions for a sim should be made on the basis of the residents.

I wasnt razzing you about the formula, just shocked. I never really thought about 1L$ per meter per week, its a good idea

np at all, I should have made it clearer!

If this thread is about ethical land sales/management then I hope that by starting this project, I can begin the change from "within".

If this works, the market will determine behaviour as always and it only takes someone to start the process - if thats me then so be it.

I also believe that it would be a good idea to have such rentals actively promoted to newbies so that they dont get ripped off before they get chance to look at the whole market and make informed decisions.

Jackson, you again come back with a load of red herrings, attacking a straw man of your own creation.



I simply maintain that there are a number of ethical SL residents right now who live by their own codes of ethics and enjoy good reputations, buying and selling land. I earlier cited Sarah Nerd and Desmond Shang as examples. I fear you want to replace their existing codes of ethics (private codes, perhaps, that they live by but see no need to publish or wave in anyone's face) with one you are involved in making. Must someone do it your way or be accused of "resisting a code of ethics?" What if they have more integrity than required by the Code your group comes up with--we're supposed to regard them as unethical simply because they don't sign on with you?



Jackson, I give you my permission to share here any evidence or basis you have for your insinuation that I run a bot. I do not, so you have no rational evidence to point to. To the rest of you I ask, is this the kind of sleazy behavior that will form our Code of Ethics?

I agree with Alice and Chex, if I understand them correctly.

Our RL is already over-regulated; to implement a real estate "code of ethics" in SL is to invite bureaucracy, over-inflated governing boards, and self-important cliques of elite groups. Like they said, what's next? Regulating advertising, building (BUILDING?? Isn't creativity sort of the idea of SL?), the sex industry? For crying out loud, don't we get TIRED of regulating ourselves? Isn't the whole idea of Second Life FREEDOM from regulation, FREEDOM to express ourselves, and FREEDOM to make our OWN decisions?

Aren't we all adults here? We should be, we're all over 18. Do we need the Lindens to hold our hands out in the big bad world of SL? The only thing that we need the Lindens for is technical help and personal abuse help. They should NOT be judge, jury, and babysitter with regard to market trends. (Free enterprise, anyone?) They wrote the TOS, which basically gives us the freedom to live our SL lives as WE see fit, and which also swears off most responsibility to stuff like this code of ethics. i.e. Caveat Emptor, or 'buyer beware'.

The way I figure it is: if I'm really worried about fair pricing, decent neighbors, and pristine sims, I'll go rent a lot on an estate. If I really don't care, I'll take the Wild Wild West of an unregulated Second Life any day.

That sounds like it'd be hella fun to do, especially if you designed a "Themed" area like, say, "10th century Ireland" or "Victorian England"...

I wish I had the kind of money that would take to make happen. Hmm, I'll look ingame and see if anyone is doing anything like that.

Actually, Victorian is one of the themes I was considering - see my earlier posts!

All ideas welcome.............

Firstly, I dont think Sarah or Desmond or anyone else would want someone speaking for them

Secondly, MY WAY? I wasnt the original poster. We are EXPANDING IDEAS here. Your imput is not being conductive to the thread. Where is this rigthwing babble comin from? who said anything about this having to be my brand of ethics, I read this entire thread and didnt see that anywhere, your just trying to flame a war so your BAD ETHICS can continue without any notice

Third, I have repeatly said that rules of ethics should be made and followed for PRIVATE SIMS, of which has no efect whatsoever on Sarah's or Desmonds land holdings. but you fail to recognize this. why do you not recognize this, same reason I said earlier that your imput isnt reall valid, you exsist on the forum boards JUST TO ARGUE.

If people have genuine good imput for this thread then its totally welcome, but BASHING & FLAMING cause you dont like what we are talking about should be frowned upon