Is there a need for a virtual real estate code of ethics ?

You know, like the one in real life for Realtors:

http://www.realtor.org/mempolweb.nsf/pages/code?opendocument

What do you think ? Maybe there needs to be a SL Realtor Board or Association ?

There should be...maybe at least looking for property will go from rape to just uncomfortable touching.

*smiles* That would be nice if people only reported uncomfortable touching once in a while.

ethics? in sl? are you new here?

There definately needs to be one. Unfortunately, since there is no governing board that has any power to do anything other than a Linden, the creation of such a group would be totally voluntary upon its members. It's the same problem with all such things, like a better business bureau, gambling commissions etc.

The new governance things coming soon is a step in the right direction, but I'd love to see that expanded to include all businesses. Currently, in any endeavor in SL, you are completely at the mercy of the personal integrity and honesty of the person you are wanting to do business with. Unfortunately, there are many that have no such ethics. The good news, is that so far, they are still relatively a minor percentage of our world here.

This has been proposed before (by Jackson R. if memory serves). And it's not a bad idea. Unfortunately, without official support, it will strike most residents as yet another "let's create a SL police force"-type proposal. You have my support, Steve. Good luck getting the Lindens to listen...

I think if you got enough real estate people in SL to see the need for an ethics group to belong to and this group was well advertized and transparent to the general public then I think it would work.

Let's say each land seller indicated "member SLREEC" (SL Real Estate Ethics Council for example) on their listings and it was easy for the average joe to find out what the SLREEC was then more real estate people that want to be legitimate would seek membership with them.

It would require a ton of work to put together processes for reporting, lodging protests and arbitration, records keeping, enforcement, and whatever else might pop up but I think it would definitely make a difference.

It could also act as a pooling of resources between different groups involved in different aspects of real estate (renters, security, scam alerts, landbot reports, etc) which would give more of a tangible benefit to its members.

If anyone wants to do that I'd be more than happy to claim credit for the idea!

I'm against it.

We all have a general idea how to act ethically. A code of ethics would lull naive people into misplacing their trust.

As it is, we have great liberty. Anyone can buy or sell land in SL. The more we regulate that, the more a smaller and smaller group of REALTORS (TM) will be able to profit on the basis of privilege.

As it is, we have a healthy skepticism toward people trying to sell us stuff. Those dealing in land with good reputations have earned those reputations without some standardized Code of Ethics, by dealing with integrity, honesty, and playing fair. They return money to people who have second thoughts, don't apply pressure, etc. But if we give people the impression that land dealers in general live by a Code of Ethics, many will get burned anyway; and if we say that all good land dealers live by the Code of Ethics, that won't strip the integrity from trusted dealers who don't play "Simon Says" with the Code of Ethics controllers, but it could hurt their reputation.

As it is, people get lied to, misled, and pressured. A Code of Ethics won't stop that in SL any more than they have in RL.

The only code I would really favor would be one that informs people as to a good standard they may expect from those with whom they buy and sell...so they won't feel pressured into thinking they were right to have been duped.

In other words, if people want to regulate buying and selling beyond the ToS, I'm against it. But if people want to educate others on how to recognize a buyer or seller that has integrity, fine.

If I've learned one thing from SL, it's that this statement is either untrue, or that people behave awfully even knowing that they do. People are inherently selfish, greedy, and spiteful, and SL is one of the best ways to see this, live and in colour.

I disagree.

If behind he code of ethics there is a well organised and transparent body that certified those who operate in line with the code, then people who be re-assured.

Would you prefer to buy a product from a website that is VeriSign certified or not?

A code o ethics and certification is a very good idea in my opinion.

With all respect, I have seen landbarons who call themselves RE agents in Second Life.
How many of them are real RE agents and how many of them just want a code for their own interest. At the end they want to make money as much as they can. Funny thing is that a RE agent is making profits in rl so what's the difference in Second Life? Do you think they come here for charity?

Don't we have enough rules in rl? Do we need licenses for everything we want to do? Actually you are burning your own house, because rl companies with loaded bank accounts will take over from all the "amateurs". Certified, licensed, approved by a board of wisemen....

Really give it a thought and think about it some more......

Wes, but isn't the issue here quite the opposite: lack of rules, transparency and accountability?

When you choose an estate agent in RL don't you make sure that the agency is trustworthy? Would you rather deal with an agency that is member of a trusted body rather than one that isn't?

This is true

and theres no effort being made to civilize it at all.

My question wouldn't be do we need a code of ethics for real estate agents (which don't really exist) but do we need real estate agents at all? In my opinion, the majority of them don't provide any added value to justify the price jacking they do. Planting a few Linden trees and a freebie log cabin doesn't add any value to the land.

Land dealers in Second Life are in it for the money, and no code of ethics is going to interfere with that.

if that proffesion is ingame nway... tried several times to find 1 to see if i can sell my piece of land and so far nothing, not even in the service forums so why bother?

Why not create standard contracts for agent/seller and agent/buyer relationships? Have a forum of interested parties to determine what the terms should be. If your agent refuses to agree, then just don't use them.

Reguardless of whether we need them, they exist (land resellers). Unless the profession is outlawed- which I think sends the wrong message, they will be here.

As far as Ethics,

A general code of Ethics , or a statements of rights, even if unenforcable would be superior to doing nothing.

It would help some of those who want to do the right thing but dont know how it applies to them.

Amen.

Newbs have no idea who has a good rep. selling or renting land. I think an organization like that would help all "professional" land sellers get MORE business. And with the glut of land out there, you guys need to start differentiating product. I've not bought land yet and when I do, I'd rather go to an agent, tell him/her what I want and in what price range and they give me three landmarks. I go look and pick from one of them. How much easier would that be than slogging through the confusing search lists?

This is a great opportunity for people like cHex LosAngeles to actually make more money.

Yes, of course, it will help the industry. It's a win win situation. The code of ethics and association would be entirely voluntary, just as in RL. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that the RL code of ethics and Realtors board protects people ? I'm sure some people have been shafted by the board but at least that's the ostensible reason behind it.

It is unneeded. Right now it seems that so much land is owned by land dealers, with very little being sold to end users. More and more land is being released- 16 sims per day, with an occasional huge dump. They completed an entire continent in less than two months for crissakes. Eventually and gradually prices are falling, and those who can provide additional value in the sold land in terms of community or development will profit, while flippers will continue to loose.

Also, the reason why there are land dealers in SL is that sims are auctioned off as whole sims, thus requiring an initial investment. Most aren't interested in a whole sim but a slice, and so there are middlemen. In a way it is a good thing; LL could more than justify hiring people to sell land on a parcel basis and get more profit, but instead they allow outside land businesses to thrive.

Maybe a group for ethical estate agents could have a huge joining fee that would act as a bond. Any customer problems would be mediated by the group itself and the "bond" used if necessary to pay for any damages.

I haven't thought about this at all - would this work?

They are not real estate agents. They are land sharks aka land flippers. With the L$ per square m amount, those sites would sell themselves. It's not like cheap land is hard to sell.

Right now, a number of dealers in SL land have good reputations with me. I would have no problem, for example, in going to Sarah Nerd or Desmond Shang, discussing with them what I wanted, and trusting them to tell me a fair price for what I wanted and maybe even showing me some properties if they had them. These reputations are based on personal dealings, comments made by others in the forums, and their own statements and actions. No group-controlled Code of Ethics were involved--just my own internal code.

Now, what puts me off is the idea that a group of land dealers comes up with a Code of Ethics, and begins to justify themselves by questioning the motives and integrity of land dealers who don't join their voluntary association. What if Sarah Nerd, for reasons entirely her own, didn't join? Would her character be changed? No. Could her reputation be smeared? Yes. (I imagine people saying in the forums, "Well, if she's really that trustworthy, why isn't she a member of Ethical Land Dealers of the Metaverse?".

I'll not name names of land dealers I wouldn't trust, but the reverse could be applied as well: "If that were true, how did they get in to the Ethical Land Dealers of the Metaverse? What you're describing is against their Code of Ethics!"

When I deal with a Realtor in real life, I assume they are after money. They want the biggest commission they can get. There are cases where Realtors have crossed the line out of legality to get them. I assume what they are showing me are properties they can get a commission on, and I don't expect them to show me properties where someone else gets the commission unless they can get a slice somehow. Now, to be clear and fair: that's what I assume, but I have been pleasantly surprised in the past by Realtors who generously exceeded my assumptions. They got a better reputation with me, then, by their actual actions and statements though--not simply by being a Realtor.

I guess what I'm opposed to is a Code of Ethics that is used to privilege certain dealers at the expense of others, regardless of the actual ethics of the residents involved. A Code of Ethics that encapusulates good-faith land dealing, in itself, is not a bad thing. It would be a good thing if it educates land buyers on what they may expect and what to look out for.

After looking around SL for some time I've come to the conclusion that there's a lot of land for sale at high prices and restrictive covenants.

On top of that, you have to BUY the land AND pay the landlord every week!

Great unless they skip - then you lose the land because it never really is yours and Linden only recognise the landowner who pays them directly.

So....

Starting May 2007 I plan to start a community project based on nice island sims that rent out land at less than L$1/M per week with no deed to purchase.

I'll still make a profit, just not a mountain of cash and thats fine.

If you're interested IM me in world.

ANY size plot can be rented, and as the community grows I would like to expand and theme islands to residents wishes, so get thinking!

Lets make SL fun and creative again!

I would think that this question is geared more towards the Private simland sales as opposed to the mainland sales. Afterall Mainland is cut and dry, buy it, own it, done. Whereas Simland is anything but cut and dry, shifty estate owners, huge varying degree of difffernt ownership formats and landrights.

Yes I still believe that it has to be regulated, and I know 90% of the SL'er hate the word regulation.

cHex LosAngeles, why did I know you would be agaisnt it?

All goes to say those who could stand to lose money or lose any other personal interest would be against it. Those who generally feel a sort of community compassion for making SL a better place should be all for it, these are cut and dry lines in the sand without room to argue.

Real estate regulation came by in the real world because of the need to protect the little guy. Regulation should in some presence come to SL for the same reason