TOS and Forum/SL linkage

Lorna - in a short read, with little background, you have completely understood the gist of the situation. Posting here in the forums, without malice to others but with (simply) strongly held beliefs, led to a suspension in both the forums and inworld. Inworld, where there were no complaints whatsoever.

Not smart. Not right.

Not every case is the same but I've seen quite a lot of criticism aimed at LL on here and I'm not aware of anybody getting banned yet.



Yes many people don't come to the forums, so if you're merrily slagging someone off they might not be here to defend themselves. That's open to all sorts of abuse if there is no comeback other than being barred from the forums.



What sorts of topics are you talking about? Take a look around here, ID Verification, Ageplay, the new support procedures, all of them have drawn scorn from some posters.

People have been sacked from work for blogging about their jobs.

Another desent topic gone to the dogs

I wrote my post trying to just relate what happeend - not take sides. Taking sides or naming the person would just strir up residual anger. Even though this all happened well over a year ago.



I meant its pretty amazing he didnt violate the Forums rules more - Considering how much he posted. One of those, if you type 1000 words its more likely youll say something "Wrong" deals. A lot of people called for his ban for months prior to it happening.

Its very true to say he wrote the longest posts of any Forums Poster I can remember.



He most definitely was arguing what he beleived in. Many times in doing so he came off as an ass, But so do many current forums posters. It was what he believed and his willingness to drown people with words in a confrontational style that annoyed so many people.

Definitely not one of those 'time to agree to disagree' types.



Banning him just reduced how many words were posted on the forum. It didnt solve the problem - hence the removal of all those forums in September.

I think the battles continue still on 3rd Party sites - so it really didnt accomplish anything except the "If you are going to kill each other - do it outside" idea.

I'm of the mind that you can be a a model citizen in world and be a pain in the ass here, so I think linking one behavior to the other is ridiculous. As far as Forums go, in general, most I've seen are too restrictive, especially those that are obstensively adult. Humans need to discuss, expand their opinions, question, joke, even argue. Discussions drift, go off target, fragment. You can't moderate that out of us. The argument over doing away with off topic areas is always that the discussions get uncivil and out of control. Let them. Take comments from where they come from. Don't read threads that are of an annoyance to you. Don't respond to trolls. Consider personal attacks no more than an Intellectual Kamikaze Mission, the desperate act of someone who has nothing intelligent to say. I've never been hurt by words, only by actions. Sometimes you may be offended. But that's life. In RL , I believe you don't like what you hear on the radio or on TV, change the station. Or turn it off. You don't like what an author has to say, don't read it. Same applies here.

Because you aren't aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I have just said it has happened in the last couple days.


This isn't about immature flamefests between individuals, and barring only from the forums is very much NOT the issue. I'm talking about the absurdity of a punishment that crosses both forum and SL.


In some cases (but not all) I don't find this acceptable, but that is beside the point, because it isn't relevant to the discussion at hand.

*watches thread carefully*

You know, I have to be a bit circumspect these days.

Were I to get myself banned, it would affect many, many, others who never signed on to my sims only to lose it all for a 'cause' I might take up.

So I measure my words very, very carefully, and honour those who have entrusted me with so much.

* * * * *

I also have no issue with Strife whatsoever; controversial as that stance may be.

I've been in similar shoes before, and it's a grim situation indeed if the community 'polices itself' - we've seen what that was like in 2003/4/5, and bluntly stated, within forums, right now it's a far better place. Ok, accuse me of being Hobbesian a la Leviathan, but someone had to moderate or the situation was lost.

The idiot speech of the past volumetrically drowned out the rational speech, and it quite literally took the loss of the marketplace of ideas to cut the intimidation factor within forums to reasonable levels for reasonable people. Horrific but true.

I fear to think of all the reasonable people who were exposed to SL official forums and fled, not realising the forum wingnuts were merely a small, nasty minority compared to the rest of the grid.

* * * * *

All that said, I'm damn proud to have Envoy around Caledon. He can say things I don't dare say anymore...

grins

I'll double Rusty's L$2

Think "Community". There are essentially five places where residents and Lindens alike can interact with one another:

Agni (Main grid)
Aditi (Beta grid)
Blog
Forums
Forums Private Messaging

All five of these outlets are governed by the same Community Standards and Terms of Service. Neither of these documents makes any distinction as to which outlet they apply. They apply with equal force to all areas of Second Life. You can disagree with this in principle, but it's still an established matter of policy as far as Linden Lab are concerned.

Using a forum provided by Linden Lab to lodge complaints against fellow residents, or otherwise engage in personal disputes, is specifically against the rules laid out in the forum guidelines, and generally runs afoul of the Community Standards. A sanction that didn't also extend to the offender's ability to log into the grid wouldn't be very effective at deterring future violations. You break the playground rules while riding the merry go 'round, it isn't much of a punishment if you're able to go play on the swing set until your merry go 'round suspension expires.

Honestly if there is a forum ruleset and then a game rule set and they are clearly defined and you break the rule dont you think you should be "punished" somehow?

Here is what I read in your posts - some guy got banned from the forum and game for breaking a ruleset and you think this is wrong

I guess I dont get it. The rules are there and reasonably clear so just dont break those rules and your fine. Its actualy pretty easy to do this not breaking rules stuff. Its when there aren't rules and someone suspends or bans you that there is an issue, but in the case of Linden Labs they do have rules set out in both the forums and in the game so its not to hard to know what not to do.

I'm also not sure where the lack of transparency comes in as some guy broke a rule and got banned/suspended not much else to say and/or do about that. If you look around at history or even communities to this day that exist withouth rules they are an "unruly mob" of screaming flaming nasty people who say and do what they want due to lack of anything to stop them. This unfortunately is human nature and not everyone will do this but enough people will do it to make life miserable for others. I can also hazard a guess as to who got banned/suspended on this forum because of the posts and "potty mouth" in them. I guess he got a surprise and didn't realize he would be suspended from ingame. Looks like he knew he was doing wrong in the forums and though meh he would only loose his ability to post but still play the game. Looks like they got a surprise DESPITE warnings by a couple of posters as to what would likely happen.


In any event I"m not sure where the lack of transparency comes in its pretty transparent to me and simple

Linden Labs posts rules in all the forums (yay for clarity on that one) and then posts rules for the game (yay more clarity) and then says if you break any of these rules you will be banned from both forum and game (yay more clarity).

I'm not perfect either and have made accidental oopsies even which classified as rule breaking usually in a thread which broke all the rules to start with and I dont see Linden Lab taking away certain priviledge for minor infractions. YOu have to be pretty darned nasty in order to get banned/suspended. So all I can say if this occured on the forums in the last couple of days there was only one pretty darned nasty guy on here so its not hard to guess. Lets just say that if they didn't get suspended I would have been surprised. In fact there were two people going at it and it was hard to figure out who was worse again I would be surprised if they didn't get suspended for a couple days at least


I'm also pretty sure that the idea or impression that he would not be harmed in game is what prompted such behaviour in the first place. I"m pretty darned sure he would have been more careful and a bit more umm delicate in his approach had he taken the time to read that this could possibly happen. Lesson learned I guess and he wont be doing that again. That's pretty effective crowd control to me they got that one right and I'm glad of it. YOu should have seen the forums before they put that little rule in place It was not a place you would want to post on and a lot of feelings got hurt and it was just a mean, nasty and horrible place to be at.

I don't really see a problem with the linkage. Whether one disagrees with a linden policy, or wishes in general terms to expose some Misdeeds on the SL grid, One CAN do so while continuing to Conduct ones self as a civilized human being.
It's possible to discuss issues from opposing points of view without insults, slanders, or histrionics, I have done so for over two years, and Feel No fear of this policy what-so-ever. All it really means is Adults will have to behave as Adults either on the grid, or in the forums, and accept that even If they feel wronged, either by LL, or another resident they Can express themselves Reasonably.

Angel.

I think banning someone from the forums after banning them from the grid is fine - they got banned in Second Life.

Banning someone from the grid based on what they did on the forums isnt.


-----------------------------
The Forums isnt a mutual admiration society its a place where Ideas and opinions are expressed, those Opinions are often at odds - sometimes the debate gets out of control.

The rule about banning from the grid based on what happens on the forums, the one quoted by the Original Poster was made in Direct Response to ONE resident. It was a pretty obvious at the time.

Now perhaps they saw what happened and decided they needed a policy change becuase of it. The rationalization Zaphod makes is pretty good. And Zaphod makes a good logical case. The Lindens may even feel that way now.

But its not what happened.

Yes, I do, and I've said so. Don't you read these (carefully) before answering? Not trying to be snippy, but it seems half the respondents have ignored the OP.


Pretty close.


I guess you don't: it isn't about breaking rules (as vague as they may be), but about whether activity in one arena should have a negative or punitive consequence in another. Just as Mr. Shang put forth: words that he might say here, in forums, could be used to curtail his inworld business activites, *even if* he did nothing wrong inworld whatsoever.

This is a public forum. You don't need to download a client app. They are hosted by Linden Labs, and I wholly support their right to moderate their own forums as they see fit (whether or not I agree with the manner or implementation). I completely disagree that incorrect behavior in a forum is quid pro quo in SL itself.

BTW, it isn't necessary to speculate as to who may or may not have been punished here. I'm speaking about a principle and implementation, and merely brought up an actual case so that it wasn't completely theoretical.



Ah, yes. I did mention in an earlier post that I have only been around a few months, and the legendary lore of the LL Forums meltdown are strong. When I first came around I actually had the impression, with a bunch of archived areas, that the forums were completely inactive, and I went elsewhere for a while. So do bear in mind that I acknowledge it sounds like it was an ugly scenario.

Also acknowledge that sometimes, in an effort to bring order, measures can be put in place that go one or two steps too far at times. I'm speaking to those times.

Indeed but give us an example. You seem to be stirring for an argument without any basis.




What you seem to be saying is that you can come here without any sort of penalty. That if youy badmouth a rival here it shouldn't count against you. I disagree.




It's very relevant because it's an example of how everything isn't tied down to boundaries. Why don't you just get it off your chest.

I read your initial post and commented on it what i have been reading afterwards has made me to comment again. Your upset because if you post something to the forums and get banned for breaking a forum rule your also banned in game and my "counter argument" is having seen what happens when you dont do this is people just get very very rude and mean and nasty and dont just discuss and take it as a license to say anything in any manner they choose because forum bans mean absolutely nothing. What means something is accessing second life so if you dont make it sting the rules mean nothing. This is the same age old internet stuff that has been happening for a long time not just here or in other "games" but applies to most online situations where there is a support forum coupled with an online service.

Otherwise kaos would reign. YOu dont have to like everything everyone says just "do it" also your saying in the last couple of days a ban has occured as to a forum posting at least that is what the is being said if this is so as i said I can see only one situation if what you say is true this "might" have happened and it was well earned

I also dont antitipate you getting any lashback for any "negative feedback" your giving regarding this method of banning. In fact I dont think your post will cause you any harm at all becuase its polite even though negatve. I will re-itterate that there are worse forums and services even linked with SL that are not so democratic. They have no rules and just ban period on their forums for any pissy reason you can think of. The fact there are rules that you actualy HAVE to break to get any sort of reaction is a good thing.

I also dont see why linden labs should inform you personally of any banning however they are transparent about their bannings they can all be found in the police blotter which lists when people are banned and why and includes forum infractions so its very transparent.

In any event yes the conduct ingame is linked to the forum conduct this is not truly a bad thing its keeps the nasty people in check and there are some pretty vile posters around who if you notice aren't here (for the most part). There is a reason for that and it has to do with the way the forums are run and the consequences of breaking the rules. These consequences are in fact allowing you to post in relative piece without being called all sorts of colourful names and being told to put your head into certain positions with regards to other body anatomy. This is preferable to what could and does exist in other scenarios. YOu can thank the rules for that which hold an actual penalty which would cause someone to think twice before posting like that.

I see nothing wrong with this it keeps the human urges in check especially in the younger generations.

/shrug

I'm not going to point by point you Envoy, it would be a waste of time because we disagree, and we're going to continue to do so.

When you play a blues gig, do you turn into a sneering and jeering jerk? I somehow doubt that. Sure, you may become a little more raucous, but does your fundamental personality completely change? Do you attack people verbally? Do you start breaking rules? I love going to sporting events and cheering and jumping up and down when my team scores, but I am still me, and I realise that if I go batshit crazy and attack that Green Bay fan who is banging me in the back of my head with her pom poms, that I will be arrested and lose my job, or be warned at the very least, if I can't make it to work because I am in jail. Why is LL the bad guy here? They just have a normal, standard set of rules that every MMOG/E I've played in the last 12 years has. Why do people in SL consider themselves so special?

Look folks, you get a DUI while out with friends, and you're a truck driver, you will probably lose your job, yet you did nothing wrong at your job.

I am thoroughly mystified at adults who do not understand the concept of collateral damage based upon <inappropriate> behaviour.

And boohoo, someone got suspended from in world for a few days or a couple weeks. Get a grip people, you're placing way too much import on SL. Really. Lordy, people are still fighting for basic human rights in this world and you're outraged over a game dev's disciplinary policies. Perspective.

(I went back to re-read after the above comment, just to make sure I was responding on topic)

Answer 1: It's not a democracy. Reason, emotion, popular opinion do not prevail. The Philocracy makes and enforces policy as they deem best, and their idea of 'best' drifts around. (Short form: why? becase.)

Answer 2: As Wilhelm suggested, we have one ToS and one CS that govern us in both secondlife and the forums. We have the same identity across both. If I, as a guest, drop trou and leave a deposit on the floor of someone's bathroom... do you think they're going to let me loiter around on their front porch? No, they're going to revoke all my visiting privs as punishment, doesn't matter what context, medium or zone that offense occured in.

Answer 3: See my earlier post about needing a bigger stick to get forum posters to be civil.


As far as Strife goes... He will never be the master diplomat that Torley is (few could ever be!). I agree with most of Strife's actions, even if I don't agree with his choice of words at times.

Yes it would be quite effective at deterring future violations.

Because eventually, if you keep violating, you would be removed from the forums altogether.

That is sufficient punishment unto the crime.

coco

Envoy does have a point. The difference is this.

Can one be admonished for ideas, rather than simply tone?

In here, the answer is yes. This is not a forum for discussion; it is a forum where residents may get answers. Not more. We had more margin of error once; due to the abuse of the forum this is no longer the case today.

Thus, posting certain ideas, or even extensive discussion can directly affect your inworld activities.

Generally I've seen remarkable restraint. But it can still happen.

Which for some would affect hundreds of people. Add up my sims, and the 500-odd people in the Caledon group, about half of which pay for land, for the appropriate amount of perspective in my case.

That's the Resident Answer for today.

Besides, all this is as if there were actually consistency or fairness in handing out forum violations in the first place.

Since there is no such thing (and since it is difficult to moderate consistently and objectively in the first place), it make sense to err on the side of caution: A forum violation = a forum punishment.

What, prey tell, would be the harm?

That is the way it USED to be. It used to be that you lost your forum privileges if the powers that be didn't like what you said on the forums, NOT that you were locked out of the game for it, too.

Really, as someone else said earlier, there's quite a difference between participating in a forum discussion about a TOPIC and living your life in-world. (Where, ironically, you can discuss topics as much as you like without sanction.)

There is no need at all to invite people to a forums, then - if they say something you don't like - take away their access to their land and business they have already paid for, where they don't do anything but mind their own business anyway.

If the powers that be don't like what they say on the forums, then by all means, ban their ass from the forums completely, if that makes the ptb happy.

But DON'T take away everything just because they said something the moderator didn't like to a friend of the moderator's (which has happened, and I'm not talking about Strife here).

There is just a complete difference between making a comment on a forums that someone in power doesn't happen to like, and doing things in world to DELIBERATELY harm others.

There is a complete difference between someone sincerely trying to discuss things in a forums, and an in-world griefer.

Any system that doesn't recognize that difference is severely flawed.

coco

<sigh> Yes, for the nth time. I truly believe people can step outside of accepted boundaries, and without appropriate deterrents, nothing will change.


I guess you don't. One of my main points has to do whether one can, and should, just blindly look at that policy and not even remotely question it.


Well, one thing they don't spell out is to never call into question the policy implementation of the resmods. This, apparently, can lead to suspension in short order. Why that would have any reflection on my inworld activity is a non-sequiter.

One would hope that I could be taken at face value, that my tone and demeanor would cause you to not suspicion my motivations. I haven't given specifics on the case, because I can't be guaranteed that they might not extend punishment to the aggrieved party. I'm not a kid, I'm not a troll, this is a sincere questioning of policy.


Oh, please, that isn't remotely what I have said. A forum infraction should necessitate a forum punishment. I just don't see how a problem here *has* to cause punishment inworld.

Well on one point I actually agree with you. I don't see how it *has* to cause punishment inworld. However I believe that it should be the nature of the infraction that deems the punishment and I see no reason why an infraction on the forums shouldn't lead to a an inworld ban too. There may be cases where only a forum ban is needed.

I admire Torley, Torley has a style that I try to emulate. Words get woven in just the right ways and try as I might to duplicate, the artistry is missing from mine. I'm always looking for advise on how to improve.

To address the OPs question:
It's rare when someone gets reported and has a repeat history, most people get a grasp for the rules before they move past a warning. ResMods aren't informed of disciplinary action or involved in the process (except to flag posts for review), we don't have the power to ban people. It is very rare these days when someone has such a bad history with LR that they are banned; the punishments after all are a graduation based system. It's not a first resort punishment, it's a last resort.

Forum Guidelines


*moves to ResMod discussion*

I think you need to realize that a lot of people including myself are posting having seen what the forums were like without these constriants it wasn't pretty. What I think YOU dont understand is that it was tried many different ways over time the fact remains that this method was basically what we are left with forums and all. Once upon a time there were general forums and many other types of forums. You see what you dont understand is there was once a lot more freedom on these forums. This freedom was revoked and having seen the previous situation and seen other things which you might not have discovered yet outside the game and inside the game what has happened here is the community has basically over time had what are priviledges and not right removed sytematically until the problem has fallen under control.

The result you have here is the ability to post this thread and actualy have a discussion. What you need to understand is if you had posted a thread awhile back you would not have been able to FIND the discussion becuase it would be burried in spam personal attacks and other things.

This is what worked regardless of how you feel you should be able to behave on these forums and be treated as a result of making something that warrants a forum warning, suspension or ban.

The bottom line is your seeing consequences of actions taken by the community at large over time. This forum started out unmoderated basically it didn't work and other things were tried and as those didn't work they got tossed aside. Your basically seeing what worked


This may seem harsh to you but its the reality seeing what was once even a year ago when I joined which paled in comparison to what occured before i joined (i read the archives among other things). So here is the thing you see once upon a time we as a community had what you want now to be returned presently, but we can't have it as it didn't work and seeing the result and changes in the atmosphere of these forums what they did was probably the right thing to do.

If we want a general forum and more freedom to say stuff and whatnot we have to earn it I"m not sure we can because those types of people who helped to make the forums an ugly place once upon a time still exist. We basically failed at policing our own as pointed out and so your seeing the result of our failures

So yes I dont get it this is working as I know what existed before and again I repeat your thread would have been trolled out of existance with pictures, flames people calling you every name in the book at one time regardless of the actual subject of the thread (subject content didn't seem to matter ..) if someone didn't like you IN GAME you got it on the forums too andi if someone didn't like you on the forums you got it ingame from them as well. This is what the community did and I have seen examples of it in the present as well so that has not changed.

The rules pretty much reflect how the community has behaved and done on these forums and ingame and its working I can post here and so can many others who were unable to post and fled the forums long ago as a result of the distasteful conduct of various posters.

I anticipate from the way you wirte things and the fact that your being reasonable about everything you would have been one of those people that fled. I'm not sure unless you have a flamming potty mouth picture posting spamming side to you that you have not shown.

Presently the ones taht don't survive these forums are those that ruled the forums in the past that was "bass ackwards" and so it has been righted using these rules that you dont like

lastly Linden Labs does the warnings, bans and suspensions and its rare not resmods they just lock threads and send them for Lindel Lab review nothing more.

p.s. like others i'm not going to disect your post because its far to much trouble based on the fact that we would never agree as I do see what your saying and I also know it doesn't work so you can feel however you want. I too wish that this was possible, however experience on the net has shown me that its not.

I have a daring suggestion.

Envoy, ever considered doing any forum moderation here?

I'm serious.

If I had the time myself, I've often wondered how people would have responded were I to offer to help. Certainly some percentage would like me; another percentage would despise me. I'm fairly immune to drama, however (dealing with mini-continents of residents tend to either kill you, or innoculate you when it comes to drama).

But sadly, I just plain don't have the time. What say?