Some answers from Linden Labs.

Well Email things to be much better than SL IM to get answers.

So here I have some answers from Cory Linden that he gave permission to share with you. Aöthough Cory sounds a bit like an oracle :


1.) I suppose there is not really a release schedule, yet? But I would
like to know a rough time frame when we Linux users can expect to have
a full working client? This year?


2.) In the Linux forums there was a lot of discussion about involved
technologies and if there would be a switch away from Quicktime. My
guess was that if you switch you would not want to switch to another
patented technology but to something more free because of possible
patent costs and that you rather won't include Mplayer for playing
Quicktime, because of all those possible patent problems with an
unofficial player?



3.) About free software: I heard your interview at LUGradio - but
again I haven't heard of a rough time frame.



4.) I want to suggest to arrange a meeting between Linux users and ppl
involved in developing the Linux client at Linden Labs. maybe this
would clarify a bit. Maybe one should do a kind of "SL LinuxWorld
Conference"?



So I try to make a summary on the facts:

1) Till october 2006 the Linux client should be getting much better than today.
2) LL will allow all kinds of multimedia formats instead of only Quicktime and WAV. So it will be up to the citizens what they provide and what not. (My Comment: Well thats really intelligent - let the market handle the demands instead of doing one choice and make ppl angry)
3) There is no public time frame for opening the clients source. (My comment: I suppose it has no priority to them and they rather work up their priorities. I think if I look at the answer to question 1+2 my guess is that we will not see a free client until 2007)
4) Have to look what "SL Community Convention?" really is. Is this a RL event?

Ok, just wanted to share this with you quick.


Vinci

The convention is a real life event hosted by residents but attended by LL employees. The plan is to host this year's festivities in San Fransisco to facilitate extensive Linden attendance. The dates continually elude me.

Thanks for relaying your confab.

Great, Vinci

Your determination paid off!

That has good news in it for all of us

Did anyone else read that as :
1) soon
2) no decision
3) not telling
4) not playing

Yup.

... greetings from the Oracle, as Vinci said ...

But the 6 months on our linux alpha is at LEAST something

1) is not "soon" - I think this means in more than in one year from now.
2) really means that they are not doing a switch away from Quicktime and I would think it will mean that they would support Theora. but they will not make a decision. I think this is the same situation as in RL where you have QT, RealMedia, Theora, WMV and many more standards.
3) I agree
4) I think a RL meetup would be more than a short SL meeting for one or two hours, so I think he rather suggested more than I would have expected. Wll if anybody wants to do this -go for it. For me it will not be possible to attend this meeting in San Francisco. But maybe some of you want to go there?


Vinci

Cory was last online April 11th. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) the Group Members roster doesn't say how much time each AV spends online.



I think a RL LUG meeting with Cory and other Lindens in San Francisco would be great. But that should not prevent one or more online meeting(s) in SL before the San Fransisco convention.

Grim

Well, beware, that this might also be LindenSpeak, like the things Philip Linden says.

6 months 'LindenSpeak' means 1-2 years or more


But if Cory didn't mean to speak LindenSpeak, it's good news

A question i got is why do you need a free client? If they actually develop a linux client that works what possible means do you have for it? It just seems a way for people to get around some things and would cause more grief then good in my eyes. Opening SL up really doesnt help any type of development in the long run if its not approved by LL. A commercial style game with a free client really...

As most people will tell you open source/free clients blah blah blah are a good thing and ill agree (for programs) To a game there is a large difference. You have a much different structure of how things operate in a game vs a program. SL is great as it is and i see strides in what LL is trying to do on their own some things may be a hassle to linux users but look at it this way.... At least they are trying!!!!! most people back off of linux and i feel alot of the community feel's when soemthing is released on Linux is automatically has to be free. While linux is great and all remember SL is a commercial game if you take a free version of the client and do things u shouldnt mess with really what does sl become? and whats to prevent lil mini clones of SL popping up if people expect more?

Well, I think this depends on how you categorize SL. I personally categorize it as a 3D chat client with additional functionality. Well, ok, some people treat is as a sort of social game, but I know that LL and many others feel that it can be more than that. That additional functionality certainly allows you to play inworld games and such, but what about the people that create actual 3D artwork? Now, I'm not claiming that there's much in the way of high art in SL (most was probably scanned), but speaking as a (non-professional) artist myself, I am extrememly hesitant to create much of anything in a closed environment like SL. If I had source code for the client, I could write in support for easy import/export from blender, for example. This would make me much more likely to create things in SL. You can already import/export actually, but it's a lossy 3rd-party software process, which would probably work well enough for people who wanted to rip stuff off, but I wouldn't trust it with anything I created.

Just my $0.02

how do you figure that SL is closed? So we cant import directly from blender or other thing.... For people that know 3d modeling most of the basic functions of 3d modeling are given in SL. We cannot alter polygons it'd lag to hell to work how SL does to do that.

There is alot of functionality in SL that people just dont bother with looking into. Most people jump the gun and say its closed. It is very open. Just because they arnt letting you create programs to integrate directly into SL thru source code really has no bearing on SL at all it wont help anyone if you know much about 3d modeling unless they add support in the game structure for it otherwise things will only work client side.

I know how game servers run and you cant just do something client side it doesnt work that way. It has to be incorporated thru the database hence for people the actually create thing they would need the server coding and have LL directly input it into the game for it to function properly. This may work fine for programs but in an online enviroment like SL that definately isnt stored locally its next to impossible to do this without having people disrupt things quite a bit.

Open source or a free client would be good if this was a single player game or a game like active worlds where people host their own servers but to do it how SL is set up wont work. Most people cant gather that fact. This is more then a chat client to alot of people some people use it as a business tools others a game others to have creative freedom. I have a saying in world as well as out of world when people ask me what SL is.

I tell them SL is what you make it. And that holds true. For people that are a lil creeped out to import things its safe. There are ways to rip people off but they are next to impossible for ur average SL user. Now Im not against Open Source programs i think they are great just they cant work on a multiplayer format without having a server code to effect stuff inside the game directly. Works that way with every mmorpg you can have something client side sure....

But then only you can see what you did correctly. And there are ways to get an object u made out of game into SL jsut using measurments sure its longer but.... Mind you most of these complex things people do are polygon edits there for impossible in SL without being stored locally on ur machine. And example of this is tree's and grass in SL they use a polygon mesh and a polygon hence they are 1 prim and load fast as they are stored locally.

There is to much to go into why open source for a game wont work i just but down basic stuff here....

Actually I saw him once in SL accidentally where he tested some new kind of beamer device on me. LOL.

You can see him and Philip at this Video where they speak at Google:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5182759758975402950&q=google+second+life

(btw. I found this Google Talks extremely informative and entertaining)

Vinci

See my posts elsewhere on this forum about API robustness, and see "Ethics for the Information Age" for a good overview of why open source applications are not any less secure than closed ones.

I've come to realize that there is a rather large problem with the API in general, though... It's possible to steal prim-based creative works by dumping the data sent from the server to a file. Nothing is really preventing this, open client or closed client. It's a tricky problem.


Someone much better with words than I has already responded to these concerns, particularly your claim that an open model wouldn't help development. Read it here.

If I look at Linux games today I have to agree partly, because I think that the environment is often not very good. You often have a small crowd of dedicated developers - and game projects often get halted if the job perspective of one developer changes.

But I think the perspective with SL is different and can not really be compared to ordinary Linux games. And BTW I think Linux games today are a lot better and more professional compared to some years ago. But I think it is difficult to build a server model on Open Source. I really think the key is if you own servers and do not actually want to earn your money with copies of a client. Many commercial game vendors have a hard work to block copying with aggressive copy protection mechanisms. This prevents some users to make backups of there software (surely that never hinders real software pirates to make professional copies - it only hinders those gamers who paid for there game and are not interested in breaking copyprotection mechanisms). But I am getting a little offtopic



(So back to the free software discussion? I try to add some new views

Well first I think it is important to differantiate between "free" as in "for no cost" and "free" as in "freedom". What I advocate is more the freedom of software as "software for free"

Generally I think every bit of information that is open ( no matter what topic) is good for progress, in software, for business, for society in general. The problem I see is that just too much business models today are based on the new Bill Gates style secret software development.

And to talk about Linux: Actually i do not care if Linux gets recognition from those companies that do not want to do a change in business model to something that would fit to Linux better. This is not about dogmatism. For me it looks weird that so many users think that free software is actually not so important for Linux although they use Linux and Linux is all about free software. Linux would not exist if ppl would not have tried to build everything with free software. Beginning with the free GNU tools and also the Linux kernel by Linus Torvalds.

I am using non-free software on Linux myself. I do use those software if no free adequate software is available. But I really don't know why anybody who doese not care about free software would want to use Linux? Well, many companies take Linux as a basis for granted. So they take this "present" and then are happy to build software on top of it - but often build this to be not open. For me this looks a bit like you go to breakfast with your friends and all bring something with them - but you use this event to sell some food to them. Ok this comparison is not very good but I think you might get the meaning I wanted to transport?

I thin it is ok if companies if software companies are not publishing free software right now - but I would always prefer free software and I keep demanding it from my software vendors.

Maybe thios makes my view clearer: Given the choice if there would be a free client OR a Linux client I would vote for the free client. Because if client is free this could be ported to many platforms anyway.

So my reason for Linux is more a political reason than a practical one. I think maybe it would be easier for me to deal with MacOs X or FreeBSD. I don't use Linux because I can download it for no cost.

Sure, free software itself does not makes software good. But the opening of code gives us new insights and enables us to build new software. I am quite sure that we would have many bugs fixed of the SL Linux Client if it would be free software. All those hacks (which I do not install because I don't want to have an unofficlal client) were so creative to enable us to do simple things like copy&paste. So i really think whoever votes against free software also says that he does not want a working client a soon as possible.

Vinci

You miss a common theme with my stuff this isnt just some game. How many linux based mmorpg are good? For that matter how many mmorpgs make it to linux? Changing around a client for a 3d game world results in nothing at all. Things always need to be changed server side for anyone other then you to be able to see what is going on. This would causegraphics glitches for people etc.

I've seen similar action with "game patches" where people changed the scheme of a weapon texture by replacing it only they saw it. Client does not effect the in game world it's just how you connect to it. The client is already free you can download it and you dont have to pay for SL if you dont want to. I see no reason for it to go open as it hinders the commercial value of the game as well as other things. And what is stopping people from grabbing prim data to steal? Well most people dont know how to do that and its a good thing in SL to a degree thats what furthers development of objects to have something close in design.

Alot of people just seem to be uptight about how SL work currently or dont quite understand how game servers work.... First off you need a database.... Login Server blah blah blah. Other games you would have quite a few databases. Problem is i could change stuff client side but only i see it. Pretty useless in creation in SL if you ask me if im the only one that can see what im doing.

Its not an issue if its secure or not its just how games are setup to be played online. Cant change client without changing server/database unless you wanna be the only one able to see it! While you state developing software .... Yes an open or free model of something for software = good for a online world however its not so. Thats the point im making opening the client up wouldnt fix much aside from a few client side glitches which there arnt a ton.

What if the community just stops development to hmm? I think keeping SL commercial will benefit it more then adding a ton of free stuff onto it. Sure it may take you guys a bit longer to get a working client but at least they are trying to get you a client out there in the first place. I feel the claim i want it free comes from those that dont quite understand the inricacies of an online game world. Stating ohh we can fix bug etc etc etc.

A quick note NO you cant. If you fix a bug client side that isnt also fixed thru the database to recognize a change to the file well you get a problem where the server and the client end up colliding because they cant properly operate. So you see now if you go open what goes it actually going to do if its not changed server side?

Again Vinci whats to prevent mini sl clones if you open up SL? As you stated the code helps you make new software.... Yeah bad idea as long as they charge for services in SL. Basically put down the commercial value of game ... ruin economic structure for people by doing so because of fear on their part that SL will fall apart or jsut become ransacked with crap. and you also run into the stuff i stated above no change to the client can be made without changing the server unless its to do with some texture releated stuff held client side which with sl might be like a login screen and mabye some UI changes. Basically if your asking for an open client your also asking SL to give you the right to make ur own SL servers making SL no different then active worlds just a better form of it as far as functionality.

Really think through the Free or Open source community Look where production is. On software itself. Games are alot different and i've stated this many times. SL especially is different considering there is very very little that is stored locally. SL is streamed to your PC in real time. Its not on your machine. Hence why the client download was so small and isnt a huge install. And to note about servers if it was simply updating clients for an update they wouldnt shut things down for hours on end!! the optional viewers have been different ill admit that but something is done server side to make both run which eventually gets changed anyways in the next mandatory update.

So in retrospect Making SL free if it was a single player world or a strictly Lan based world that is actually stored locally would work but as it stands now SL cant work as an open client without resulting in conflicts with the server!!

Darkside stealing prim-based creative works leads me to believe your slightly paranoid. How often if ever has this been done in SL? Its really not a problem when msot of the community isnt a bunch of tech people that dont know how to do this stuff. And another note.... Where are people going to put said creations? 3ds max? or something of the line. That makes me laugh why would someone use standard prim set with no polygon edit to make a complex shape? Its jsut not worth the effort or the time really!

To me, it sounded like they were going for a more general aproach to dealing with video. Something like, using DirectShow in Windows, and xine-lib in Linux (as a (hopeful) example), and whatever your computer can handle, you can play. The content providers then decide what format to use. Just like it is on the web.

Just a note for the Linux side, it can be made to load xine-lib or something at run-time. So if you don't have xine-lib installed, it'd just alert you and the program would run normally.. just without video playback (just like if you tried to play SL in Windows without Quicktime installed). Install xine-lib, SL would automatically detect it, and then you can play anything you have xine-lib set to handle (to which, I have no problems playing wmv or quicktime or what-have-you with xine-lib, using the win32codecs; xvid and other formats would also be available to use, and there are native linux and windows codecs for that).

They put it back into SL. I know some 3d designers in-world, who spend a lot of time making really amazing things. But consider this scenario:

MaliciousMan (MM for short) tcpdumps SL, reverse engineers the protocol, and writes a script that grabs all the prims on a given linked object and dumps them to a file. MM then writes another script that reads that file and sends the necessary commands to SL. He now has an exact reproduction of the physical dimensions of the object and their relation to each other. I'm thinking scripts like this are feasible, given the copy & paste hack posted on this forum.

Now, it's not a huge deal since he still doesn't have the necessary texture, but that was sent to the client at some point as well, so the same thing could be done to get the textures, in theory.

Why would anyone care? Hop over to Enigma Island and check out the statue of Chesh from Alice. I think the creator of something like that (include any other visual artistic endeavors) would definitely want to keep his IP rights (the example I used was done with American McGee's blessing, by the way. So no arguments on that score )

Oh, and you said "It's not really a problem"... the hole that allowed Blaster wasn't really a problem until someone took advantage of it.

Touche, but World of Warcraft had a Linux client in very early beta, and there WAS the L2J project, if that counts. Had some pretty popular servers in it's day. Required a proprietary client, though there was some talk of changing the client around as well.


Your focus is in the wrong place. You keep focusing on changing around the way the client looks. If the project were actually opened, the focus would be on fixing bugs: copy & paste in the Linux client, client-side rendering issues, things like that. This is a straw-man argument.


Hinders the commercial value of the game? Since it's already available freely, I don't see how that could be the case.


Again, straw man. Prim data can be stolen with the client open or closed. It's not really any easier with the client open, either. You could write the hack faster, maybe, but the problem remains. It's a design issue.


Err... see above.


What if LL goes out of business tomorrow? I for one would like to have the client & server code. Then I could at least have a little world for me and my friends.


Depends ENTIRELY on the nature of the bug. I've developed client/server code professionally, so I have at least some idea about what I'm saying. Bugs in rendering, stability... anything that's glitchy locally can be fixed without touching the server. The only time you need to fix both is when the bug affected client-server interaction.

They would fail. From a business standpoint, they make no sense whatsoever: LL offers a free game with a 24/7 tech support staff, TONS of in-world content, and relatively reliable servers. People might play around with their own grids a little, but I doubt it would touch LL's revenue or popularity.

Also, in practice, code forks are extremely rare. They've happened a few times: wine/cedega, xorg/x11, net/free/openbsd, but the results have always been positive (err... the cedega thing is a little hairy, but I like their product despite their shortcomings)


I'm beating a dead horse, but this brought another point to mind. You know that cache/ directory? Where SL puts stuff that it downloads? *All* textures are eventually stored locally, and optimizing what happens with them when they get there would improve game performance tremendously, especially on machines with lower-end hardware.

Also, think about all the purely client-side Linux bugs: copy/paste, Primary memory detection, AGP support, etc. Almost every one of those can be fixed without a resulting server-side change. The only exceptions that come to mind are streaming sound & video... which, again, seems to be stuck as a design issue at the moment.

I'm not so sure about that.

Yike, someone let the rant out of the bag - did the grid go down for a few hours or something?

Ok some facts here is most people in SL arnt malciious they are few and far between. And it lowers the commercial value of SL by allowing people to manipulate things having your own little world wouldnt be good either that would hurt the value of SL. Look at it this way you will get a linux client consider that its still alpha they have to develop it it has to go thru the same stuff pc and mac did. They decided to release it which is nice for you guys but you jsut complain cuz dev is slow is all i've seen. There is absolutely no reason other then rushing about the development of it that it would help. It would never be the official client and would cause alot of problems that i wont go into.

And L2J used java and was a piece of crap in all honesty lol. It was missing alot of content and other stuff. Then the hybrids were better but still missing content. As far as stuff being stored locally to a degree yes but its not really anything like that. making free is alot about trust and then a ton of people with a diff client slows production and alot of other stuff ill not run into specifics here to long...