A theft in the making...

Suppose a mentor states that they are going to steal textures, skins, clothes, and builds from someone else.

Would this be reportable?

I've asked the mental mentors, and I've gotten the response that I have to wait for this person to steal the content before its reportable. Isn't a chat log enough?

Clearly, this has happened with several mentors and they are setting extremely low standards for this group. They should at least be notified that if they are to be a mentor, this won't be tolerated...


Looking foward to hearing your thoughts and opinions, especially a Lindens.(Interested to see how a linden defines "theft" in sl).


Perhaps I should rephrase the manner in which the mentor stated it...

"but i can get your skin and clothes
but not on this computer
but on my parents place i have the right program
it's not really illegal
you: it's not right to steal them
treu, but somes ask to much money"

He had a few skins that he clearly wasn't capable of making. Not only that, but I apparently wasn't the only one whom hes bragged to.

Shouldn't this person at least be ejected from the mentor group? I mean aren't they setting a bad example for fellow mentors while mislabeling our groups name?

So is this offense reportable? Will any action be taken against this mentor?

If someone said they were going to put their head in the oven would you dial 911?

If I told I would like to have an affair with your partner would you leave him/her?

Same answers to the above to the one you're asking, this is only hearsay and there is no evidential proof that anything has actually occurred.

when in doubt AR it. be it mentor or whatever, mentors are not special.

For somebody to say that kind of thing in public would sorta be begging Darwin to take a swipe at them. How convinced are you that they're not just messing with you or talking out of their bum?

If what you allege is true, then based on the Community Standards, you have an obligation to the rest of the SL community to report this person


I quote from the Community Standards:
Reporting Abuse
Residents should report violations of the Community Standards using the Abuse Reporter tool located under the Help menu in the in-world tool bar. Every Abuse Report is individually investigated, and the identity of the reporter is kept strictly confidential. If you need immediate assistance, in-world Liaisons may be available to help. Look for Residents with the last name Linden.

And from the Terms of Service:
2.6 Linden Lab may suspend or terminate your account at any time, without refund or obligation to you.
Linden Lab has the right at any time for any reason or no reason to suspend or terminate your Account, terminate this Agreement, and/or refuse any and all current or future use of the Service without notice or liability to you. In the event that Linden Lab suspends or terminates your Account or this Agreement, you understand and agree that you shall receive no refund or exchange for any unused time on a subscription, any license or subscription fees, any content or data associated with your Account, or for anything else.


This to me is a no-brainer. People in real life do time in prison for theft. Next thing you know, this person (if the allegation is valid) will be ripping you off if you allow it to continue. Sheesh... and I've only been here for 13 days. Take a course in ethics, please. You'll be a better human being for it.

I am a Second Life mentor and I try to keep the highest standards possible when speaking with persons seeking help. But i am also a residence in world. and a business man as well. Stealing anything from others is just not right no matter how you look at it.
it cuts into the profits of the hard working people that make the Second Life economy.

I have found that a lot of people look at being a mentor as a position of power,,and it is clearly NOT that at all. It is an opportunity to share what you have learned and experienced with others and to coach and guide them as well.

I would not want the people I help to see me as a crook!! Nor would I want to steer them down that path.

"treu, but somes ask to much money"

yeah well 'somes dont lern enuff n skool.' (this person is a mentor?? how did they get hired talking like that...:\)

first dmca, they'll get some schoolin'...

i just built in an option to my vendors i hope to roll out soon, that will not only post the L price in the floating text, but also the rw conversion to US dollars/cents... i wonder if doing this more would show people just how little 'too much money' is.

p.s. also note that even posting an item for 1L would be 'to much money' still for thieves - it's not the money, it's the thieving they get off on. they will say the money doesn't matter, but if that was the truth, they'd just funnel their scripts to pay out back to the original creator.

p.p.s. - count on a 'wannabe' professing such criminal aspirations as actually ready able and willing to do so, either tonight, tomorrow or sometime in the future. no pussyfooting about 'well, they haven't done anything yet'... to quote the untouchables, 'now who would claim to be that, who was not?'

Thats odd Bobby.. i actually think i know the mentor you are talking about (In the group that you have stated) I would like to be able to chat with you in I.M or something (If possible) i don't want to air anyones dirty laundry, but i have heard the same thing from a mentor who talked JUST like that. I have also seen opposite sex outfits given by this person to others for free and they were full perm. I did AR this person long ago, as i had heard many people talking of this same situation.

Minority report?

lol

Kids.... I swear, I reckon 80% of thieves in SL are kids either literally or mentally.
There is a group called " Texture and Graphic Exchange" I joined and added some of my "spares" to keep an eye on WHOS work they are throwing around to complete strangers when we clearly state in our EUAL that distribution at ANY level is prohibited ( as textures - we allow ppl to use txtrs in creation for commercial reasons just dont want the actual textures themselves being sold or given... ) apparently... thats not enough!

The degree of hatred and ignorance I was exposed to when I "asked" them not to share any textures that were named with the Prefix TRU as they are sold with our EUAL as above left me shaking with anger.

Remarks like " Greed is an ugly suit to wear LillyBeth " and " You have to take a loss now and again "
OR
" You need to educated yourself on SL's TOS OPEN SOURCE means just THAT!"

I explained that LL DO act on DMCA notifications and that SL's permissions do NOT over rule RL IP and copyright laws and was told
" yea well, I paid for them they are mine to do what I want with "

NOT SO. Only the artist/creator has the "right" to do what ever they want with their own damb work.

But it was a mass mob attack against me and I was called Greedy because I took offence to them openly passing mine and other artists textures around to complete strangers who eventually will pass them to other complete strangers who at some point end up selling them on SLX or in SL.

They think its all about the " loss of a sale" it really isnt. Its about where the textures end up and US having to deal with the workload and stress of issuing DMCAs on people who say
" oh I was given them, I didnt know "

95% of people caught reselling our textures never even heard of TRU. They were "given" a bunch and this is the most damaging thing to us as artists and as business people
I personally have lost 2 sets of txtrs I have had to remove from the store because they are all over SL in Full Perm stores or like all things in time end up being given away as freebies. ( the License removed along the way of course )

Of course if LL just at least added "something" on the log in screen about IP and copyright to at least indicate that they gave a sh*t it "may" make some ppl sit up and listen.
RIght now LL sit on the fence and only act when they have to and no-one hears or knows about it.

We get a lost of AR crimes and suspended accts because of griefing I never see anything about residents that were issued a DMCA for alleged copyright infrigement even though it happens...and more recently a LOT

I know they cant "advertise" it as technically its an alegation but at LEAST state how many DMCAs were issued in a given period of time just to show these "blissfully " ignorant people that it IS taken seriously and that copyright and IP laws dont cease to exsist when we log into SL

ggrrrr

Lindens don't post on the forums - which you know -, and if you had actual non-sensationalist reasons to discuss whether the fact it's a mentor changes anything at all you could have just IM'ed one of the VTeam Lindens, or gone to one of their office hours - which you also know.

As you well know, the governance team has office hours where you have a chance to ask questions like that. Why ask it somewhere noone will be able to give an authorative answer?

For that matter, why does it even matter whether that person is a mentor or not? It doesn't change a thing for better or worse. Mentors are regular, plain, lowly residents like everyone else and subject to all the same rules.

The Lindens do post on the forums...I had one post on my previous thread.

I'd like to get a community opinion as well. I mean this is 'supposed' to be a community based game.

As for being a mentor, I'm questioning whether they are going to enforce the TAO. Clearly, this behavior violates it.

And you haven't given an answer to the question.

well, i would report it, sure! if it's actionable, it's up to whoever is responsible for the mentor program. i think the line "it's not really illegal" is enough to put them out of what is supposed to be a 'leadership/assistance' position.

Since it was obvious in that other thread that you weren't ever going to actually bother to go to an office hour to bring up any of your concerns, I passed on the URL of that thread on to Blue at the end of his office hour with the mention that if he had time he might find some feedback there and he ended up replying to the thread.

Mentors have gotten warnings/ejected by the VTeam before, but of course the critical thing there was that someone actually bothered to first tell them what happened.

In cases where a resident who happens to be a mentor does something "bad" that has nothing to do with actual volunteering I'd think they'd just defer to the abuse team. The TAO only applies to anything you do or say as a mentor, not as a regular resident.

I did give you an answer, the obvious one you were already aware of before you even posted: ask them. If you feel that what that person said has something to do with mentors, IM one of VTeam Lindens or go to an office hour. If you're unsure whether to AR or not, go to the governance's team office hour and ask.

So it doesn't matter that the resident is a mentor...?

I must admit, I would have thought the fact that someone is a mentor *would* make a difference. From the perspective of new residents, the label "mentor" would give the impression that they have a certain air of authority - and I would at least expect them to have been vetted, and to have agreed to certain standards of behaviour while acting in that post.

The fact they're unpaid (I assume mentors are unpaid) is irrelevant. They are responsible for promoting the community, and ripping off the artists in our community who make the things we buy doesn't seem to be good PR. It sounds as though this particular "mentor" is about 13. Who decides who does and doesn't become a mentor, anyway? Employing illiterate teenagers to be the public face of SL probably doesn't give the best impression of our virtual world.

I really like Nyoko's idea of automatically displaying prices in local currencies. I've met people who apparently have good jobs in real life complaining they "can't afford" $500 for some item or other. To put things in perspective, a single espresso in Starbucks in the UK costs around L$650.

By comparison, Nyoko's body oil for men - which looks fantastic, incidentally - is an eight-part set of layers and costs L$100. You can even transfer it if you decide you don't like it yourself and give it away as a present, and it costs less than one-sixth of a cup of coffee. And my body oil has lasted me a LOT longer than my espresso

Hi Lilly how are you today....

People have been asking for those TOS about IP about Copywrite for a long time. But you think they would do it? No, why because it that would be in another legal battle with not only SL users but that of other games and possible legal issues refering to texture. With the possiblity of "JUMP" game platforms with all our inventory etc. Can you imagen the possible legal issues LLABS might get into? LLABS got in to one legal battle with a someone that they banned because of buying and sellign land. But at the end LLABS was settles with him because they felt they didnt want spend money dealing with the possibly of them being wrong for the banning of that person. LLABS is not only at times "CHEAP" but also they lack rules that in rl they could get in to serious problems with.


Usagi

Wait a minute.

So far, all we have here is someone (allegedly) saying "I'm going to steal content".

That's a dumb thing to say, but it's not actionable. I can say, "I'm going to steal a car". But until I actually steal it, I've done nothing wrong.

Later, my statement could be used as evidence against me. But until I commit a crime, it's just talk.

Not to mention that the reporter in this case has been known to stretch or distort comments and/or blow them out of proportion.

If I met the OP in world, I might be tempted to tell him I was going to go orbit some griefers, just to pull his chain and watch him jump.

I highlighted the essential part of when (in my opinion) it matters in a given situation whether someone is a mentor or not.

The easiest example is complaining about the abuse system: there's an immense difference between venting at your friends that you feel that ARs aren't handled the way you think they should, or telling people that they shouldn't bother to AR since it won't do anything in your capacity as a mentor.

Or if you own a store you can certainly tell people about it or give out free gifts (assuming you're not spamming), but it's entirely different when you'd mix it in with your mentoring to lure newbies to your store.

Residents aren't mentors full-time just because they happen to be in the group, they're mentors when they're actively using that role or when the context makes it so (being on an OI or HI, or posting as a mentor in the mentor forum) and for me that's the deciding factor on whether it matters that someone's a mentor or not.

If you see someone with the mentor group active, or using the fact that they're a mentor do or say something that is out of line, then you have a (possible) violation and subject to the mentor guidelines. Anything else is simply a regular resident and only subject to the general TOS and CS.

I'll second what LillyBeth said. I was in a group called Builders Exchange and this one person who was an SL Mentor got pissy at me and told me "we share" when I said that the person requesting X texture should just go to TRU to go buy it instead of violating the copyright. Said person simply didn't want to deal with TRU's lag. I was disgusted and have since left that group, as it was more about sharing textures than knowledge.

To be honest, it seems to me that I should be giving the same advice to new residents regarding "mentors" as I would regarding "SL Police" - frauds, pay no attention to them. There seems to be no oversight whatsoever.

I always enjoy reading your replies At times witty fun, and helpful mostly.....But most important your get the point and don`t run around issues.


Usagi

Ord, there IS oversight. Maybe not enough, and it doesn't catch everything, but it's there. First, there's self-policing. Mentors encouraging other mentors to follow the guidelines, the CS and TOS. Then there are Mentor Buddies, older and more experienced mentors whose job is to help bring newer mentors up to speed. Finally there's the Linden VTeam, the (five, I think) Lindens who are the head of the whole Linden Volunteer mob.

The VTeam has stated that they will be "raising the bar" for entry into, and continued membership in, the Mentor group.

There are over 3,000 residents in the Mentor group. In that number, you're bound to have a few bad apples. We try to weed them out, but nothing is 100%.

Why don't you do your part to raise the standard? You know a ton about SL. Volunteer!

Accessing Mentors is a big problem. As it is now one must try to find a mentor. And pray they know the answer. Anymore NCI does a far better job. One just has belong to the group and ask in group and recieves info, often from older members that have been in LH and Mentors in the past but know that it was best to do on their own. I sound like I have a grudge against Mentors, perhaps I do, I have watched the Mentor degrade over the last several years. I find it sad.

Don`t be Toy, I remeber you way back you were always helpful. But these days feeling bitter as you might feel. Many of the older ex mentors ( atleast I do ) know what your refering too. Its hot hate but degradation of the group.

Usagi