Public land will go to auction

The right-of-first-refusal for local landowners is just as broken a concept as neighbors-only auctions. What if I place a proxy bid of L$30000 for some land, but because nobody else is making large bids, my winning bid is only L$20000?

Do you propose that the local landowner can claim the land for L$20000? That's broken. It's not my fault that nobody else bid against me. I put much more money at risk for this land than the other guy did.

Do you propose that the local landowner can claim the land for L$30000? We don't need a special rule for that! This is what auctions are for. The local landowner should bid as much as he's willing to pay to expand, and he'll win the auction if he'll pay the most.

I wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph. I think it serves as a perfect illustration of why these special rules are not needed. You yourself said neighbors would much rather buy the land, "even at a higher price". This willingness to pay more takes care of itself in the auction system.

But if I think a plot in Lusk is worth L$30000 and residents of Lusk think its only worth L$20000, then clearly the neighbors do not think it's worth a higher price. This is the crux of the matter. As much as I can sympathize with people who want to expand at a discount, I think it's very important that this land not go for L$20000. It's simply unfair to people who don't yet own land or who want to expand into another sim. It's downright dangerous when you realize that speculators already own a lot of land, would cash in on any special rule every chance they get, and would turn right around and sell the land at its L$30000 fair market value.

Edited to make the dollar amounts in my two examples the same.

Philip,

I have given you my thoughts, and e-mailed you a very professional document on the subject. Public Land should not goto the first to find it, however, it MOST DEFINENTLY should NOT goto the auctions. It should be claimed for the landless.

On the subject of the Land Less, all new sign ups (As long as they do not have an existing account (match billing information)) should be assigned their own 512 sqm plot, and in their inventory would include a land makr named "Your Land" or something of that nature.

I feel VERY strong against public land going to to auction, and will personally be very upset to see that happen, rather than giving it to the Land Less, or assigning it to new sign-ups (That don't already have an existing account).

That to me would show greed, and not meaning to dock Linden Lab, because Philip, you know how hard core about Linden Lab, and Second Life, as I have put a low of my ideas and views into it, which seem to have been put in use.

I personally will discontinue my play in game, and continue to pay for the tier I am using, just to spite the land going to auctio (Might as well mark it to L$100/sqm, so the rich can just get more land), rather then seeing it going to those that can afford it. The land should goto the landless and new non-dupe account sign-ups.

If you want to 'balance' Second Life, then give new members, and those that don't have their land a home, instead of putting it to auction just to gain more of a profit. I'm really sorry to say this, and will probably regret it in the morning, but this really upsets me.

Is it too much trouble to assign it to land less or make new members that don't hav any matching billing info with existing members have their own plot of 512 sqm? Not a problem, just let me know, explain to me the land management portion of the simulator infrastructure, and I'll plot it out. Not enough staff to handle land for land less? Fine, I'll do it... Wanna know the nut cracker? I'll do it for FREE!

I've put a lot into SL, and have given you guys a lot of ideas, that you ahve apparantly put to use, and have grown successful because of, and I will 100% PROTEST when/if I see Public land goto auctio rather than to the landless.

The problem with SL is the rich get richher, and the poor don't stand a chance. Give the public land to the land less, and start assigning new sign-ups their own plot of 512 sqm. Is that too costly? Then write me the bill, I'll pay for it.

I need to see SL stay a balanced community, not like the real life is, where the rich get richer, and the poor are fawked.

I mean no disrespect to Linden Lab, and especially not Philip, or the rest of the Linden Lab staff, as I greatly look up to each of them, however, I feel VERY strong against what is going on right now. I've been told that you want the system to be balanced, then take my advise as you guys have done before, and balance the system. Sure it won't make it COMPLETELY balanced, but it's the BEST start you can make, considering land is a huge deal in SL. It's where old skool players and new players alike can call home.

I have lots of friends who I couild easily convince to sign up for $10, if I tell them "I'll give you ten bucks cash if you give me your land. Then you can play for free!"

The only reason I'm saying this is you bothered to add the "don't have any matching billing info" to your post, so clearly you recognize 512m2/$US10 can be horribly taken advantage of. I'm just saying that I could get lots of super-cheap land this way. I wouldn't bother, but I know enough about human nature to know a lot of folks would.

LL has embraced the commoditization of Second Life resources, much to their credit. This extends far beyond just the auction system... their efforts to keep the L$ stable and their cooperation with GOM are other indicators of this. Even if they did not embrace it, the L$ would be commoditized anyway, as has been proven time and time again on other, commodity-resistant MMOGs.

As long as the L$ is a commodity, and as long as land can be sold by players, there will be a free market cash value to land. Anything that ignores this (like a free-land-to-everyone policy) will be gamed. The auction system is the most reasonable course of action because it accepts the realities of a free market.

Perhaps a communist version of Second Life could work, where everyone must own the same parcel size, no selling of goods for L$, etc. It would attract a different crowd, but might be successful. Tacking on a "free 512m2" clause to the current system is just capitalism-with-welfare, though, which just won't work, IMO.

This is an important point. To avoid this view, I think all abandoned land auctions should be in L$. LL could then redistribute this money to the economy through stipends (perhaps "keeping" the $L1/m2 they would have gotten in the old system). Abandoned-land auctions in US$ might very well look like LL trying to create a new revenue stream, but L$ auctions can hardly look like greed -- after all, they can easily "mint" more L$ any time they want.

Vel, Good points... How about we make it so that the land given to a new sign up can not be transfered? only released?

L$ is worth US$. Might as well be the same thing.

Problems solved, next brain buster?

I think it's a great idea (Auction public land that is).

Already on the wave of the last forum debarkle I've had 3 people asking if they can buy 16m plots off me in the space of 24 hours-- well not so much asking, more the door to door salesman - shove shove kind of affair that degenerates as fast as a wayward forum thread when you say 'no'.

Apart from the obvious advantages, circumventing what seems to be set to become the latest 'get rich quick scheme' before it has a chance to take hold is a good thing and an added bonus.

If there were a simple way to find usable 512m contiguous plots for new players, that would be cool too -- but if that means expending manpower that can be better used elsewhere I can see why that would be undesirable.

Siggy.

I am a bit ambivalent about public land going to auction for serveral reasons. First of all, I think the auction system has been a major contributing factor to the inflated price of land, and this just adds even more cheaply priced land to the fold.

Also, what about situations where land is accidentally released? I had to help a friend last week who accidentally released part of her land as part of trying to join two plots. In that circumstance, what would happen? A land scanner user actually did swoop in and buy the land while we were trying to fix it, but thankfully when presented with the situation, he sold it back. What would happen in that case?

I do think that if public land is going to be auctioned, it should obstensibly be for L$ only. Yes, they can purchase the L$ anyway, but it at least keeps L$ in circulation and could potentially make the land in reach of someone who really needs it, instead of just someone with a quick Visa card.
Also, this land needs to be marked clearly as what it is, and have the same details that current land auctions do - what the plot looks like, what the rating of the sim is, and how many prims it can hold.

Chance's suggestion of public land going into the land for the landless program has merit I think - I would prefer to see it go into that system than to go into auctions, where it is subject to the same wild pricing that any other auction land is.

The beginning part of your statement (Didn't bother to read the rest) is completely inaccurate. Auctions can be put up automatically and randomly decided if it was for US$ or L$. They can simply start the auction at L$1/sqm and do the same with US$ (Generally L$250 -> US$1, on average).

So this can be completely automated, and I could even write the system myself.

Philip,

Sending the land that has been released to auction is the best choice. It allows everyone the same opportunity to get it. No special allowances for adjoining parcel owners or sim neighbors. It will be the closest thing we can have to what we use to call public land.

Salazar Jack

I agree that auctioning should take place. Thin or small strips of around 100m will have little value to most users, so they should not be a highly sought bid item, except to adjoining plots, so it should work itself out.

The main issues that concerns me is the potential for abuse, needless bids to raise the price, and what happens to the land should no one bid on it. This is concerning smaller plots that have little value as a stand alone plot.

Also, there needs to be some sort of grace time, in case of accidental release of land. Maybe allow the plot to be only bought back by the original owner for L$1m within 12 hours, before it goes to auction.

This is very good news I think putting released land up for auction is the most fair thing to do

I don't think we need more newbie land or special neighbour deals. Please keep simple thing simple

What we really need for the newbies is a tutorial or a mentoring system concerning land topics. And a better land application process!

Newbies should not have to post on a forum thread to apply for their land. There should be a button or menu item in the SL client labeled "Apply for land", then a popup dialog with options such as PG/Mature or Mountain/Beach.

As another option you could mark land for the landless lots as claimable by landless. A new player could fly around, choose an available land for the landless plot and claim it

Hmmm, I think whoever raise price risks ending up as winner of auction.



Reauction it one month later? Turn it into protected land?



I agree. We need a system that if you release land that you can undo your action during maybe the next 24 hours.

Sometimes land can be released accidentally, and I would hate that to happen to me and it suddenly go straight to auction.

I think if land is released, the previous owner should have a day to reclaim it before it goes up for auction.

I'm not saying that the land is claimable by anyone for one day, just the previous owner.

Make sure that if they reclaim it, they have to reclaim it at L$1 per sqm, like before. Otherwise, it'd be ripe for abuse.

Actually, in this case not really. If LL takes the money out of circulation via auctions, LL doesn't get any US$. What it does is to reduce inflation for the entire SL economy. Basic economics 101. Then if the economy starts deflating, they counter it with increasing dwell payments, stipends, etc. Without a L$ sink in SL, inflation is very hard to control.

Public land was a small L$ sink, but only served to line the pockets of those with public land scanner networks. It used to be fun to happen upon public land, like finding a US$5, literally, on the ground. But with the advent of pervasive land scanner networks, the whole idea of public land disappeared for 99% of SL residents.

Putting the land up for auction is a great solution to this problem and quite parallel to the real world. Estate auctions happen all the time when someone dies who doesn't have a will. This is analogous to when a resident leaves Second Life. As such, that land (which could be a plot someone has been eyeing for months knowing that the owner has left SL) would be qutie sought after. Personally, I think I'd cry if a new resident got the plot next to mine that I had been waiting patiently to go to auction.

However, I do see Chance's point. Currently the only way to get more Land for the Landless is to bring another sim onto the grid (which we all love, but sooner or later that's going to be less of an option). LL could query the residents in that area and see if they are interested in the plot. If they are, it goes to auction. If not, a Linden takes a look at the land and figures out if it should go to auction (highly sought after location) or to the L4L program (interior, bumpy, side of the volcano). This would be more work for LL, but it's my understanding that a Linden needs to do the work as it stands (when some public land is converted to Landless land) so I don't see it as being too much more work.

Lastly, I agree with making public land auctions available only in $L.

To sum up some points people are making, and points that sound good to me ..

1. Auctioned Public land should only be auctioned in L$
2. Give a grace period to somebody manually releasing land, say 1 hour or 12 hours, so that they can buy back the released land at L$1 per sq m. This fixes accidental releases, or periods where people have to release and rebuy the land for whatever reason.
3. Create at least two sections in the auctions. One for new land plots going up for auction (the current one), and one for the old, abandoned plots going up for auction. I know others want to see a complete category and search system, which I agree with, but have at least two sections so you can tell new from old land.
4. When a plot goes up for auction, don't start the countdown timer until the first bid. That way, land will get sold, and not end up with no bids.
5. I'm sure the system can handle autojoining adjacent plots that haven't had their first bid. Maybe do that if possible.

Actually, Chance can still do this, i.e. give old land away to the landless. He can bid on plots that nobody wants at L$1, obtain the land, and still distribute it to the landless. If somebody else wants the land, then the price of the land will be set by the interested parties.

The only change is a leveling of the playing field with regards to public land.

First, I want to reiterate the idea that public land reauction should be L$ only. I think this will be an important point in helping people through the shift to the lack of 'free range' land. The idea of a grace period is sound as well. Having to resort to auction to fix a mistake is just cruel.

While this is probably my second-choice idea to bring public land values where they ought to be (in line with other land) I think it will help. In my opinion, land never should have been set to $1/m2, that just created unrealistic expectations among the userbase, and opened the door for "make money fast".

For those of you saying this will destory the newbie's chance at getting cheap land: they weren't getting it anyhow. Given the choice between paying LL, or paying the local land scanner, I prefer to cut out the middleman.

I haven't been here long enough, nor know enough about the debate going on here, so my question is basically addressing the people who spoke on "Releasing land by mistake". While I have never done this, it is one of my biggest fears. Isn't there some sort of confirmation window that pops up when you release land, asking ...."Are you sure you would like to release this land?" Like I said, I don't know because I haven't released land yet.

If there isn't a confirmation window, I think there should be at least two confirmations that popup to make sure one has realized what they've done. I think this would be fast and easy to implement and would save people a lot of remorse due to a mistake that can happen to anyone.

Sure it COULD be automated, anything can, but we wouldn't WANT it to. If released land doesn't pass through Linden hands before hitting the auction block, disreputable individuals could "bomb" the auction by releasing a plot as 100 16m2 pieces all at once. A human checker can merge said plots together, or cut larger chunks into more easily swallowed pieces (someone who wants it all can bid on each section) and take a good picture of the land.

I disagree with making all plublic plots go to the landless. New sims are brought on as new players join, so there should always be land avilable to that welfare system. Besides, putting the new players together helps form communities. Wedging them between two dinos (who may have both wanted the land to expand into) does NOT form communities. But the big point for this is that new land is available, so there's no need to change the established system. It's not broken.

I'm on the fence when it comes to making public land auctions L$-only. Yes, it keeps LL from looking greedy, but it also may prevent second-stage new players (who want more land than 512, but may not have a stockpile of L$ yet) from bidding without using a currency exchange site to buy L$. Neither fact is a biggie here. Maybe 25% US$, the rest L$? Or perhaps large parcels are always L$ but the smaller ones can be either? Dunno. I'm still on the fence.

A delay for releasing so if it was accidental, the previous owner can still buy it back at L$1/m2. Well, that could work if the "sell to" field is set to the releasing player's name when the land goes public, otherwise it's plain old public land and scanners can get it. Okay, I like that idea.

So... Land is released due to a failure to tier up, credit card declined after an auction, or someone hit Release.

Land goes into a 24hr waiting period, marked as public but with a Sell To of the player that owned it.

Player can buy the land at L$1/m2, OR, in the case of CC declined, contacting LL to run the card again or perhaps use a different card.

If player doesn't do any of that, the plot goes into lock-down and is inspected by a Linden, re-cut/joined if necessary, photographed, cleared, named, and put up for auction for L$ (mostly) or US$.

... Sounds good to me.

The "released land grace period" would take care of that problem, Sahara. I have never released land because I think it's silly to waste the $L! Of course, I'm one of those idiots that charges only $L2/m2 as well

I do believe that we should get an im/email regarding the released land which says if this was done in error you have 24 hours to reclaim it". It should also have a link for "release now" for those people who are looking to offload land quickly for land tier issues. During this grace period the land should still count against your tier, to discourage evil doers from gaming the system and releasing land they don't care about, buying new land and selling it at a huge profit, then taking back the land they had released to keep from tiering up.

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Overall I like the idea, Philip. But with any changes there certainly will be tweaks to it. I am so happy about it happening.

while the idea of some of the land going for land for the landless is not a bad one... i would like to see active residents have a chance to purchase the plots at auction first... for several reasons.

1) the sizes of plots going public in almost all cases will be akward for new players. 96sqm, 768 sqm, etc plots do not fit well within tiers for new players who deserve the full 512 sqm worth of space, and allocation, without spending too much money before they really understand what they are getting into.

2) SL at large, and especially neighbors, should have the oportunity to buy the land at auction *first* because the plot may be something that factors rather heavily into their long-term plans. This is especially true of growing theme build groups such as luskwood, where we have several 'vacated' plots of assorted small sizes within the land we already own. There isn't a whole lot of utility 32 sqm here or there will have, when surrounded by another build, except to the owner of that build, and they deserve a fair chance to acquire it at a fair price. (aka push land into land for the landless only after it has failed to sell at auction)

3) that said i would like to actually have the option to *DONATE* land to land to the landless rather than outright releasing a parcel, when i do it manually... aka if i am a little over-tier and don't want to worry about setting a plot for sale for a fair price and having it simply be nabbed by someone else who just puts it back for sale for a higher price than i did. Rather, it would be nice to donate the land to land for the landless. Perhaps earning a linden made tshirt in-game for yer avatar (sort of like a blood donation sticker RL) or something else along those lines.

Taun,

That works for me as well So long as there's something in place that'll keep me from having an aneurism if I made that mistake. lol

Thanks