Enabling a larger volume of Currency Exchange

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AND



Why the sudden change of heart Anshe?

What change of heart? I don't see any contradiction in what you quoted. Sometimes things are simply more complex than black and white.

Linden Lab creates something better that benefit SL as a whole and it removes the need/opportunity for existing currency traders. They build on ideas and concepts pioneered and tested by GOM and should compensate them fairly. Change often is a good thing when done in a fair manner.

From the albiet one sided and limited account of the behind the scenes negotiations, a "fair compensation" is an abstract concept at best.

It sure would make everyone feel better if Philip gave his side of the negotiations, and we who are outraged would have more information to decide if this is a fair situation and whether GOM is being stubborn and whiny or if LL is exerting pressure to get their way by taking someone elses R&D and using it for their own gain.

The silence is deafining atm tho...

if you read my 1st post in this thread, you can see by my personal RL experince with strong arm negotiations, and from GOMs description of events, it sure seems a familiar story, so with Philip not addressing things adaquately I am inclined to beleive GOMs version of events.

And the contridiction I see is on one hand you admit it will put people out of business using a model they pioneered (incongruent with IP rights given by LL) and then supporting it as it would benefit those of you who need in game cash from reisdents to make your primary business profitable

if LL stripped you of your land and said thanks for the zoning innovations you made, I'm pretty sure you wouldnt be happy even if everyone else in world was given a few meters from the land you lost, making the many profit from your loss, even if they did give you a "Hearty Thanks" for your "contribution"

doen't make sense to me Anshe, sorry

Mulch, quite a bit of this has been happening. Linden Lab made sure that land is highly competitive and there is close to no barrier of entry. Whatever we do usually gets copied within 2 months. The only competitive advantage we have, beside simply working hard and remaining innovative, is 1. our knowledge/experience/skills and 2. our good name and happy customers who keep returning to us.

I can not comment on what promises Linden Lab made or did not make towards GOM. But if you compare GOM to ANSHECHUNG.COM you will notice that although GOM has been there long ago, our business is much more diversified. Since I joined SL and today there has been almost no changes at GOM. How often has ANSHECHUNG.COM innovated and reinvented itself during that time?

Having said this, I wholeheartedly agree that there is way too little protection for resident businesses from sudden rule changes. Things like suddenly removing Dreamland land sales (and other non-mainland land sales) from the client, or now the integration of one new currency trading platform into the SL client should always be accompanied by some fair compensation or alternatives for those who suffer from the change. A more stable environment for investors and businesses in SL would definitely help the SL economy much!

My point of mentioning a pamphlet that details the knowledge you have from your experiences, giving away a breakdown of where you made money and lost money, insider information the general public should not know illustrates that it would take away your advangtage if all other factors were equal. If you innovate further, and others were clued in immediatly, your advantage would be further withered.

Also, giving a new entry in the Land Biz an "Official LL Seal of Trust" is essentially what LL would be doing by adding it into the interface, thereby negating the trust you took time to gain from your deals in my hypothetical scenerio.

The analogy is quite good I feel Anshe, as the advantages you have would be negated if LL passed around everything you know and have learned to your competition, which is precicly what they are doing with GOM. The worst part of all, is they are using a resident created system to further their own agenda and have not denied making a profit themselves off it.

GOM took a lot of loss to gain the trusted reputation they have. Now any broker who meets the requirements they may install (which can be merely fincancial) can be given the advantage of GOMs expertise and the "Official LL Seal of Trust" with nothing but investment capital to bring them into the fold.

If that happened to you, Anshe, as unlikely as it would be, you would understand exactly the problem that this setup creates.

I hope my analogy is clear.

There is no contradiction at all. What has happening has both advantages and disadvantages. Furthermore we will have to see what Linden Lab will actually do to compensate GOM. Philip's concept sounds great, but I am, lets say, very "surprised" he does this without Zeppi and Ricky.



This is something else than you described above. And, yes, it would be highly unfair given Linden Labs marketing language of "owning" land. But even this has, to some degree happened already. Last September suddenly Linden Lab flooded the land market and land value dropped 50% within 4 weeks. So you can say our business was stripped of half its land value at that time. Or another example: we have pioneered the concept of international community sims in Dreamland. Now Linden Lab hired people and do it themselves, without us.

But I think the real issue, and I think we mostly agree here, is that often some change may be good for SL as whole, but bad for some stakeholders in SL. Like if the government builds one airport in RL. What we should ask from Linden Lab in such cases is to fairly compensate those who suffer from such changes or to provide them fair alternatives. How cool would it have been to meet Zeppi Linden and Ricky Linden?

I still think your analogy is flawed, but I understand what you try to say. And I see the problem and actually got together with other stakeholders just recently to work towards addressing exactly such problems. Believe me, GOM is one huge issue for us and we definitely expect Linden Lab step forward in one fair manner.

Anshe Chung is providing impressive leadership for the business community of SL, hopefully everyone(especially LL) is listening.

Not only does she fully appreciate (in ways few of us can) the pain and the implications of an instable business environment, she realises the necessity of this change.

Philip - please answer this question, that *many* have asked on this thread:



- Who is going to be able to sell L$?

- What requirements must they meet in order to sell L$?


Letting just anyone sell L$ is detrimental to the economy because:

- It makes it easy for people to sell L$, which causes it to devalue relative to the USD
- It kills GOM, which makes us all leary about investing time and energy in what is clearly your world


Not to mention the tax and annoyance issues you are probably wading your way into of having to deal with payments to thousands of users.


Also:

Philip says:


Philip do you know what the paypal fee in transferring mass money is? It's near zero when done for a large sum.



https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_batch-payment-benefits-outside

Philip, if we work in your Second Life environment and create content or provide services for you and your customers and then you pay us out in US$, aren't we becoming your employees? I mean, we just spend many hours working for you, then you and your customers give us those coupons called "Linden$" that we later trade in for US$ using your software. Then you send us the cheque or credit our PayPal account, won't you? What about those of us you only pay out, say, 1 US$ per hour or 2 US$ per hour? Will we be able to sue Linden Lab for minimum wages?

And since you are going to run this L$ <-> US$ exchange platform, aren't you admitting that the L$ has real value and that it can be converted to US$? Aren't we talking monetary transactions with real value in SL then? How does this all work together with tax laws and regulations in the U.S.? Would you need to apply for a license to issue and circulate your own currency? Will you have to collect VAT on content sales on behalf of the Californian government? Will labor regulations apply to people working for real money in SL? Will you have to provide log-on times of residents to the labor unions?

I really hope California law is more liberal than here in Europe.

Really excellant points Anshe, and hopefully these points will give pause to LL in entering this field.

I seem to remember reading somewhere i the sign up process that the currency has no real world monetary value, but I am unable to locate that clause because a) I am lame or b) it has been changed

If anyone knows what I am talking about and can find it, please post it here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anshe Chung

Since I believe Linden Lab is one fair and honorable business I am 100% convinced that Philip will make Zeppi and Ricky one fair buyout and job offer. Zeppi Linden and Ricky Linden is just one question of time if it is true that Linden Lab plan L$ trades. It is the most natural thing in the world for one senior partner to buy out the junior partner in such case. No way I could imagine Linden Lab use their position to rip-off residents' research/ideas and do something against them. This is just not how I know this great company and their great people work. They of course will provide Zeppi and Ricky one fair opportunity and draw on their experience and skills. I am also sure we will see similar moves soon in areas such as international community building, sim development, zoning and web shopping. Whatever fields Linden Lab plans to enter themselves, they will do it together with the residents who pioneered them. With fair job offers or cooperation agreements they will make sure that those who had the ideas will be allowed to fairly participate in the success and feel an improvement of their situation, not a disadvantage from Linden Lab entering the field. No way I could imagine Philip would ever allow Linden Lab to use its superior position to compete against resident businesses or to steal ideas. Linden Lab is not Microsoft. Linden Lab is all about win-win, fairness and encouraging and rewarding resident pioneers

Unquote



Quite. Her first post on the subject (Here and above) was nothing short of an overblown eulogy praising LL to the heavens for their tireless efforts, etc, etc...

So obviously over the top I genuinely mistook it for irony - I was dumbfounded when she assured me it wasn't.

Strange that such a smart lady has taken so long to digest the full implications of this decision...

Let me reiterate, I have only heard this as a rumor, and I certainly hope its just a rumor. I just want to hear an official reply, which I suspect will happen at town hall. As for the rest, let's not start acting like the more successful businesses with SL - especially those with personable people - haven't received some marketing help from Linden Lab. From my initial purchase of Indigo, to you being the "Chinese Woman in Germany", according to Philip, to Aimee Weber, and MANY more, we've all received free mentions in news articles and the SecondLife.com web site. Why? Because to market themselves LL's marketing team has to pick in-world residents they think represents what is cool about Second Life... the wonderful things that can be achieved by its residents. I'm certainly not the only one to benefit.

This difference here is Linden Lab has never given me (or you, or Aimee, I hope) a single U.S. dollar, or tried to set up as a competitor to us. I'm still not sure this is this case, and I certainly hope it is not. It certainly doesn't seem to be in their character. While I VERY highly doubt this rumor, I just want LL to come out and say it ain't so, or at least tell us why they can't say so.



I agree. Although LL is within their rights, better communication channels would certainly help avoid some nasty situations.

Regards,

-Flip

1. HTML in SL
2. Customizable GUI.

Users will make their own GUI that will link into GOM and similar services.

End of story, now please get back to fixing my bugs.

Seconded!

Hiro/Eloise - the problem is that this doesn't allow a person to bill the purchase to their SL credit card - you would still need to enter credit card information on the website you are mentioning. It only takes a few seconds to task switch to a web browser.

What takes between a few minutes and forever (because you may just decide not to do it) is entering the credit card information, your address, and choosing account information.

The L$ was only ever that high during a very short period of time last summer.
Current GOM rates indicate that you would get around $36.5 for 10k, and that's before fees.

Doc, I think you confuse some very basic things. I have full trust in Philip and the Lindens to eventually sort all this in one fair manner. They did many cool things and provided us with opportunities here that no other company running an online world I know provides to their customers.

At the same time I speak my mind when issues arise and try to point out good and bad implication of something. I say what I agree with, what I don't agree with, what I would think would be the right thing to do.

The courtesy of a response is requested:


Phillip - Discussions To Continue? ReSend



_/_/_/

Questions about credit cards & time/ease of use considerations: what if I want to use multiple credit cards to use different services related to SL? For instance, what if my Paypal acct is linked to my Visa/checking acct, my LL acct linked to my American Express, my SLExchange linked to Mastercard, etc.? And further, how do I know for sure I am receiving the lowest market price on Lindens through SL if I can't see the exchange rates prior to when I decide to purchase? Right now GOM accepts whichever credit card/payment method is listed in my Paypal information. Further, I can check the market before I buy and make a decision on whether to buy a lot or a little.

As far as time it takes to make a purchase: With GOM it takes roughly 2 mins. to deposit money, buy Lindens, and pay my avator in a window outside of SL. It takes about 15 mins. for me to stay in world, search for a GOM terminal, toggle my screen and wait for it to re-rez so it is large enough to see and find the teleport button on the humongous Find popup window, teleport there, fly to the exact spot which is always 500 ms away, not to mention "lag happens" and there is so much "security" and land u have to fly over often I am floating into different sims in a zigzag pattern to get there, and then another 5 mins. to read the notecard on the GOM machine and make the exchange! Make a landmark at a GOM and then teleport there? Have u tried waiting for the inventory window to search and find a landmark in over 10,000 items? No thanks. Give me a toggled screen where I can pop out for 2 minutes, make my exchange, and by the time I pop back in I have already received my little delivery from Zeppi with a friendly Thanks! Same can be said for SLBoutique when I don't want to fly around searching for something specific to purchase. I just pop into another window, find and buy it and have it when I return.

I've never sold Lindens through GOM. I don't make money in SL, I spend it. If I make over $1000 US I am sure I would have to pay income tax on that wouldn't I? Who keeps track of that? What about gambling? Do all the casino operators in SL have legal gambling licenses, because I've read interviews where someone said they could guarantee a $1million Linden bet, which is what? $40k US? Does that person have RL insurance on that? Does the IRS know about that? Anshe already mentioned labor laws, and I'm sure that escorts could figure out if they make $500Ls per hour it's really $2.00 or less US, which could be construed as exploitation. What about possible money laundering? There are just so many issues to be addressed when the Linden becomes recognized as legal tender.

I can flip side this and say, yes, let's make it easier for new people to buy Lindens because it's good for the future of SL. It makes more people want to stay after the 1 week trial period because let's face it, shopping and gambling are addictive and fun and seemingly harmless when they are virtual behaviors. So if it's easier to do these things and Linden Labs has the staff to do it, then do it and make Lindenland more inviting. Then work on not only stabilizing the platform, but making it easier for more people to come into the world. Provide support for multiple graphics cards. Pour development into making the system requirements less heavy so someone on an average Dell can access SL. People in poverty probably shouldn't become addicted to SL, but right now they are barred from attempting it due to the steep technology requirements (I'm on my third computer since I came in world 4 months ago), the requirement that they have an active credit card at time of registration, and the steep learning curve it takes to survive in SL. Diversity in SL is there, but it's not open to all populations. Further, relevance to all populations lacks also. I belong to a group called Real Life Work in SL. The platform is being used for education, training, therapy, etc. There are promises that this technology has serious future ramifications beyond only entertainment. These things are not relevant or useful unless all populations have access to them sooner rather than later. Utopias do not exist when whole groups of people are left out because of their poverty. I'm not asking Linden Labs to solve the digital gap or world hunger, but it could work on lessening it. I work with children in poverty who could benefit tremendously from having access to the Teen Grid and to virtual mentors but don't because of the system requirements and costs of being here. We are privileged people in SL, yet we sit around and argue about who gets to sell money or who has rights to systems in SL that benefit everyone. If someone makes something useful to the whole world of SL, yes, it should be available to everyone and often is. But at the core, SL is not available to everyone and shouldn't that be our goal?

Done preaching, going back to the mall

As for the L$ vs the US$ value they quite obviously state it has value and can be exchanged before you sign up

"Exchange the Linden Dollars you earn for real dollars, and vice versa"

http://secondlife.com/whatis/

So any money you earn in game can be exchanged for real dollars, and as some people have done build projects for the lindens then i guess they have been under the employement of the lindens for RL $

Of course when you get inworld and have agreed to the tos, and you goto buy from this service any money you buy from linden has the following terms "ALL OF YOUR CONTENT AND ACCUMULATED STATUS HAS NO INTRINSIC CASH VALUE AND THAT LINDEN DOES NOT ENDORSE, AND EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS (SUBJECT TO ANY UNDERLYING RIGHTS IN THE CONTENT), ANY VALUE, CASH OR OTHERWISE, ATTRIBUTED TO CONTENT OR ACCUMULATED STATUS."

While gom and maybe the other exchanges would at least help you out if there were problems we all know how slow support is helping you out with lost items and refunds if they ever happen

Perhaps a 3rd option to hiros post would have been instead of spending development time on duplicating a residents business, he should of built the banking api instead.

That isn't necessarily true Phillip, I shop at Amazon and they store my details with my permission so the first time you buy it takes a while, but after that it's pretty much a case of only when my credit card runs out of expiry date that I have to do more than clicking a couple of buttons. Running through PayPal to GOM uses the same sort of "Here's my prestored details" so it takes less than a minute (I've not bought from IGE/Anshe so can't comment on their processes).

Can I also point out that you're dodging the issue that I and a number of others have raised about the ethics of doing this too. No one doubts you can, I am willing to concede that you could improve the access to this sort of service (I'm not convinced there's a demand for it although you seem to be but it could be that there's a massive untapped demand for money changing out there), but it still strikes me as counter to your oft-espoused ethos of non-interference in a resident built world.

If you want to do it and you seem determined to, why not alter it? Offer the service to the three existing money changers that you'll do what PayPal currently sort of does - as well as clicking on 'pay via pay pal' and whatever other options there are on the sites let them have a 'pay via your SL account details' button. You're improving service to us in much the same way whilst not competing with any of the in world resident provided services. You would have to also provide some formal way that other people can do the same so that future competition for this privilege in the service sector knows how to get there. It may also allow/encourage other services to approach you for such access - SLEx already offers a 'pay in US$' option which I've never used either, but if that could be tied to a 'pay through your SL account' option it would doubtless make that easier too.

Thank you Philip for your response!

GOM --> Continue Discussions

1. Add GUI support to LSL to allow developers to create better user friendly interfaces in the client.

2. Create a merchant API. (IE Paypal like API that integrates into users SL accounts with some simple authorization such as a dialog button users must click in world.)

This would allow third parties to create the types of user friendly instant purchase systems we would all like without LL overstepping onto current or future resident business models.