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Should we stop showing hover tips for non-interactive objects? |
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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11-09-2005 12:13
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Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
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11-09-2005 12:33
PLEASE stop trying to REMOVE functionality from this game. We already have a toggle for it, why remove it? If LL feels the need to change how this works... make it another option rather than trying to "fix" something that isn't broken. Changing the way it works without giving the user an option to revert to the old way does nothing but cause grief. This was done with drag move too and I STILL hate not having the ability to quicky move objects around by clicking on them rather than those damned triangle handles. I agree with you. Don't remove hover tips. Briana Dawson _____________________
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Seronis Zagato
Verified Resident
Join date: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 454
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11-09-2005 13:01
Land should be its own OPTION. Not flatly disabled nor effected by the object hover preferences
there should be a PREFERENCE for OBJECTS for: 1 all on 2 interactive only 3 all off AND even have people be able to explicitely decide WHICH fields they want displayed in a hover bubble with check boxes on a preference page dedicated to hover data. while in ON or Interactive Only mode, only the preferred data would show. Obviously nothing would show when off. Personally i dont care if other people cheat to use description fields for script data. That is THEIR choice as a hack to get more memory and NOT something anyone else should have to worry about. I extensively use the hover tips to READ the description of objects. That is the WHOLE POINT of the description field is to be visible in hover text. Other uses of this field are not the purpose and should not be taken into consideration in this decision. By no means should any hover info be permanantly disabled. People have preferences in what information they like displayed so use the PREFERENCES of the client to track this. And if you're playing Mahjong and are annoyed by the hover data its YOUR FAULT if you dont turn it off. I t urn off the name floating bubbles while i play tringo so they dont interfeer with clicking the board. Its not a hassle to me. Its using the preferences available to do what i prefer. *edit: Also on that preferences page would be a section for what fields of info you want to display when hovering over land and WHEN you would want land hover data to even display. IE only show them if land is for sale, within X price range / whatnot. Display owner, but not group. Display price. |
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Lukas Thetan
Antiubiquitous
Join date: 21 May 2004
Posts: 128
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11-09-2005 15:22
I am in the ALL/SOME/NONE camp.
I use the keyboard shortcut to toggle them on and off, so they are never in the way. There are some times when I prefer to see the hover tips, especially while building or exploring as there are inert objects that I would like to check out without having to open up the menu on them. If creating an intermediate toggle is not an option, then I have to say leave well enough alone and leave them as they are. _____________________
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Caroline Apollo
Lo Lo
Join date: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 288
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11-10-2005 06:32
I like hover tips as they are now. I prefer mouse over to right clicking. It is also how I find my tiny objects that I then zoom into and work on. The camera is too wacked out to zoom into the area and then look for the tiny object.
If your suggestion is for helping SL run smoother, then your suggestion for these would be fine. Do have a preference to Show All for us who like it. Objects: Show hover tip ONLY if one of the following is true: - The object can accept money. - The object can accept dropped inventory. - The object can be clicked on. - The object can be bought. - The object can be taken/copied. If it is just an annoyance to some, then leave hover tips as they are. _____________________
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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I must be doing something wrong...
11-10-2005 08:33
Objects: Show hover tip ONLY if one of the following is true: - The object can accept money. - The object can accept dropped inventory. - The object can be clicked on. - The object can be bought. - The object can be taken/copied.  .Or - The object has an owner (or... one different from the landowner). Or - The object is scripted or phantom or ... The reasoning for objects is that if you need to find out anything else, you can right click. I do agree that you can't find out if the object can accept dropped inventory through that interface. I guess what I'm getting at is that I use hover to see lots of stuff that's inconvenient to see through the pie menu, so maybe you could bring up the hover text when the pie menu's up... PS: While I think about it, it'd be nice if you could see the name of an object when you're editing it as an attachment, even if you can't change it. I'm not sure whether it does this all the time, or if I'm just having trouble seeing black on dark grey, but it sure seems to blank out the name MOST of the time. Also... back in 1.6 if you were taking off clothes, it left the pie menu up so you could select "jacket, gloves". In 1.7 it was "fixed" so it didn't leave an empty pie menu up when you selected "all", but it also doesn't leave the pie menu up when it's not empty... |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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11-10-2005 08:42
Have an llSetHoverTip(TRUE) command How about "llSetHoverText(string text, integer what)" instead: llSetHoverText("", HOVER_NAME) -- default condition (user's choice, default off?) llSetHoverText(text, HOVER_NAME) -- show text instead of name llSetHoverText(text, HOVER_DESC) -- show text instead of description llSetHoverText("", HOVER_DESC) -- hide description |
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Seronis Zagato
Verified Resident
Join date: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 454
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11-10-2005 10:24
I dont agree with adding yet another function (for as much as i love extraneous features) unless its ONLY meant to be as an override. The description field is supposed to supply the hover text. Thats already its purpose.
But another thought is to ONLY automatically hide the hover text on prims that have an empty description AND dont have any of the aforementioned special flags (drop inventory etc..). |
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Neil Protagonist
FX Monkey
Join date: 11 Jul 2003
Posts: 346
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11-10-2005 14:42
I like the idea of making it an option. I dont like the idea of blanket removal on specific objects, I often use it to identify things of mine and others in multi-person builds etc. Make it an option however and I am behind you 100%.
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Sylvar Gould
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2
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left click
11-20-2005 08:51
(now that it has been changed in the upcoming release)
Since an object that doesn't show hover tips (when default behavior is set) by definition doesn't do anything when you left-click it, why not have left-click make the hover tip show up? Gives you feedback that you clicked the wrong thing, if nothing else (assuming you were trying to click an active object) and makes it easy to get brief info on otherwise inactive objects. |
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Vampire Angel
Registered User
Join date: 3 Apr 2005
Posts: 8
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11-20-2005 14:24
I WONT BE happy if you do this at all....its very helpful to me to know who owns what to hover over it....
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Bri Koolhaas
Registered User
Join date: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 48
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11-20-2005 14:34
Talk about total waste of freakin time and money...DAYUM !
With all the bugs and issues you spent your time and our money on this crap ? I've seen some wasted efforts in my day but this tops them ALL ! |
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Elle Pollack
Takes internets seriously
Join date: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 796
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11-20-2005 16:53
I actually prefer having the hover tips. Going into edit mode just to view an object name/owner/creator is a PITA, as I found out when I accedentily disabled my hovertips for a long while.
At risk of adding to a broken record heard every time new UI/preferences are being debated: "make it an option". _____________________
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"Ya'll are so cute with your pitchforks and torches ..." ~Brent Linden SL streams a world, can you also stream a mind? |
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KatanaBlade Anubis
House of Blade
Join date: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 369
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11-20-2005 17:24
I suggest options.
I personally don't care what options you add as long as we keep the two same ones we have now. to have them or not to have them. _____________________
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Keiki Lemieux
I make HUDDLES
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,490
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11-21-2005 07:45
- To view Hover Tips for all objects (the old default behavior), add the line "ShowAllObjectHoverTip TRUE" to the settings.ini file, found in the following locations: - Windows: Documents and Settings\USERNAME\Application Data\SecondLife\user_settings - Mac OS X: Users/USERNAME/Library/Application Support/SecondLife/user_settings - To view Hover Tips only for Land, add the line "ShowLandHoverTip TRUE" to the settings.ini file instead. We have to change settings.ini file to get the old default behavior? Terrible. You blew it this time.  _____________________
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Gwyneth Llewelyn
Winking Loudmouth
Join date: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,336
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11-21-2005 08:12
We have to change settings.ini file to get the old default behavior? Terrible. You blew it this time. I think you're missing the point, Keiki. LL's decision to remove the default behaviour is quite likely related to an overall improvement on the database accesses to the user server and the asset servers. This will mean that most people, who don't really use this feature, or all new residents, who won't miss what they don't know about, will happily enjoy a much faster and reliable SL experience  For the very few that really miss the "old default behaviour" — say, a handful of people at most, who have posted here their views on this change — LL gave us a way to revert it back, individually. I don't think you can really say "they blew it this time", it's rather unfair. LL gave us the best of both worlds — a way to revert to the old behaviour for the ones who really wish that, while at the same time significantly improving the user experience for all of us. What else can you "demand" from them? _____________________
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Keiki Lemieux
I make HUDDLES
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,490
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11-21-2005 08:19
Apparently not:
Hover tips don't hit the asset server or the database. They get their information from the sim you are on. And my main gripe is forcing us to use the settings.ini file to change back to a setting which was previously available in the client. No way around. Bad, irritating implementation. _____________________
imakehuddles.com/wordpress/
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Gwyneth Llewelyn
Winking Loudmouth
Join date: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,336
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11-21-2005 08:44
Apparently not: Hover tips don't hit the asset server or the database. They get their information from the sim you are on. And my main gripe is forcing us to use the settings.ini file to change back to a setting which was previously available in the client. No way around. Bad, irritating implementation. Hmm, interesting bit of information, I can't find the original post by Kelly himself (I tried several searches to no avail — do you have a link to the original post?), since this looks like he's oversimplifying things for us not to worry In either case, it is an extra lookup somewhere, even if it's only a local one.Anyway, it's a trade-off. It's far simpler to implement a settings.ini change and quickly fix the issue, than to develop it as a new client-side feature for "only" a few dozen users (the ones who posted here!). _____________________
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Ralek Queso
Registered User
Join date: 3 Feb 2005
Posts: 32
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11-21-2005 08:44
They dont hit the asset server or the database, but they DO poll the SIM for the info. A sim with 70 avs ALL polling for useless (most of the time) info does give the sim a performance hit.
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Keiki Lemieux
I make HUDDLES
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,490
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11-21-2005 08:51
Hmm, interesting bit of information, I can't find the original post by Kelly himself (I tried several searches to no avail — do you have a link to the original post?), since this looks like he's oversimplifying things for us not to worry In either case, it is an extra lookup somewhere, even if it's only a local one./108/ff/72526/1.html _____________________
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Haravikk Mistral
Registered User
Join date: 8 Oct 2005
Posts: 2,482
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11-21-2005 09:16
They dont hit the asset server or the database, but they DO poll the SIM for the info. A sim with 70 avs ALL polling for useless (most of the time) info does give the sim a performance hit. Not to mention it how ugly it looks when you leave your cursor to rest and all that comes up is "Object" because you're hovering over a chunk of wall that somebody didn't bother to name (okay, my walls, but feh, who cares about my walls?!). |
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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11-21-2005 10:06
Well, now that the hover tips change is made, I find one thing I don't like about it:
I once used hover tips to identify things for our visitors: Fred, our watch-eyeball ElvenGlen MarketPlace ElvenGlen Tavern ElvenGlen Castle ... or anything else I wanted to identify. Also in the past, I'd like to find out what the name/builder of an item is. Now, in order to do that I have to approach the item within editing distance, right click, edit, click the MORE tab... just to see the name of an item. Proposed solutions: I can understand the desire to not have hover tips all over the place. But I think rather than disabling them as a default, it would be wiser to set the default to show tips and then set two user-clickable options: totally disable or partially disable (as the default is now). Another option: show hover tips only for items NOT labeled Object. If an item is labeled Object... don't show the hover tip. Seems like a good fix. I believe these two fixes would be more beneficial to the end user. As the system sets, a person pretty much has to do an .ini file hacking job to get hover tips to show. Was this a good solution? Was this a user-friendly solution? It is really not a newbie-friendly solution, because of all people, newbies need to be able to identify the world around them. Perhaps a more professional and client-friendly solution is called for. _____________________
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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11-21-2005 11:10
I think you're missing the point, Keiki. LL's decision to remove the default behaviour is quite likely related to an overall improvement on the database accesses to the user server and the asset servers. This will mean that most people, who don't really use this feature, or all new residents, who won't miss what they don't know about, will happily enjoy a much faster and reliable SL experience For the very few that really miss the "old default behaviour" — say, a handful of people at most, who have posted here their views on this change — LL gave us a way to revert it back, individually. What else can you "demand" from them? Three points you make here: 1. "Much faster and reliable" I don't see how this will result in a "much faster and reliable SL experience". The data will still have to be accessed to see IF a hover tip presentation is required. 2. "A handful of people." It apparently will not be a "very few" or "a handful of people" who will miss the old system. Several here have commented that they do not like this idea. 3. "What more can we demand?" What we can "demand" is a little more user friendly system rather than a straight-to-the-jugular method that requires .ini hacking to revert to the old system. Some simple options would have been better: o Show all hover tips o Show interactive hover tips o Show hover tips for items not titled "Object" o Show land hover tips (this one would be separate and in addition to above options) This would seem a much more friendly and viable method than just cutting hover tips off above the shoulders. _____________________
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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11-21-2005 11:29
Another option: show hover tips only for items NOT labeled Object. If an item is labeled Object... don't show the hover tip. Seems like a good fix. I believe these two fixes would be more beneficial to the end user. Wayfinder, aye! This is a shared thoughtline Francis Chung and I have been thinking of too, as noted earlier in a thread. It has to do with redundancy... well, I hate needless redundancy. Francis Chung and I were having a chat. I'm inspired to ask this, in addition: Why not have an easy filter that DISABLES hover tips for objects, well, named "Object"? _____________________
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Alan Palmerstone
Payment Info Used
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 659
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11-21-2005 12:53
I suggest options.
I personally don't care what options you add as long as we keep the two same ones we have now. to have them or not to have them. I wish they would have done this, the new way blows. /goes to edit .ini file like it was 1995 [edit: just made the two changes to my .ini file. Did the lindens realize that the ApplicationData folder is hidden by default on Windows machines?] _____________________
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