There is no SL RPG, why don't we make one?

There are no good RPGs in SL. Somebody should make one. Here are some of the highlights and lowlights:

1. Norsim: Nice environment, doesn't lag much more than EQ did in 2001, but it restricts weapons down to diddly squat so combat (or the threat implied by carrying a weapon is silly. Also, the players don't know IC from OOC, or in-game from out of game, so the environment sucks. Word of advice on CCS sims: If you play in them, buy the cheapest pistol Black Ops sells. Combat is a coin toss because of the herky-jerky controls (some geeked out veterans will get in here and brag that I don't know what I'm doing, but they've really just won the coin toss more than most -- or at least pretend they have).

2. Welles City: Has NPC monsters, a definate plus. Again, can't use weapons worth a damn and there is no separation between IC and OOC (all of these sims have very detailed notes on what you can't do, but no real roleplay tutorial and, thus, 1 in 4 players is a complete suckhole -- no serious RPer would be satisfied with any sim in SL right now).

3. All those Gor sims. These are generally low lag and highly detailed and the RP is good but, thing is, the RP is boring -- and you have to like Gor. The typical Gorean RP consists of women in veils talking to men in spikey shoulder pads in an attempt to prove once and for all who has the biggest ego. If you're an megalomaniac libertarian, these are pretty cool. Otherwise, they're good for a time or two. Also, you have to fit in perfectly with their society or there will be issues. For example, if you RP something dramatic (a slave that runs away) even they don't know how to separate IC and OOC and will blow their stacks in every direction.

4. Midian City. This would be the best sim for RP in the game -- complete with a proprietary combat system that actually works -- except on a good night you can't walk through it, pivot or control your movement much at all due to lag.

5. Evermist (Or is it Everwind?). Pretty cool but kind of small and generally has the same five people in it at all times. Also, if you want to use magic, good luck -- they have no idea what's legal or what's not there.

6. Midian Village. This is as good as any Gorean sim but a better game world. Thing is, to be officially participating there you need credit card age verification and given that there are never more than 3 people in it, it's not worth handing out personal info.

There are a few other good fantasy sims, like Avilion but, again, if you're a magic user, it's impossible to tell what's legal and what's not and attendance is hit or miss.

So, what we need: 1. A sim for RPers, with GMs who know how to mentor and foster RP (this absolutely doesn't exist in SL right now) -- and all metagamers should be kicked or re-educated, 2. A sim that's not designed so richly that it doesn't lag to tears, but isn't visually boring and 3. A sim that has a combat system that works and allows creativity.

I understand there's a myth about real RPers not needing combat systems that prevails in SL but, the truth is, whether you use it or not, a good, well-developed combat system -- which does not yet exist in SL -- fosters much better RP.

I know a lot of people who contributed to many of these half-baked sims will take offense to much of what I've said here, that's only natural. But carp as they may, it's still true: there is no good RP sim in SL.

II

I take no offense to this at all because I know by and large the generalizations cast out here are not true.

There is alot of good role play in Second Life. I've had alot to do with a bit of it.

Theres also bad role play in good role play sims. Theres also good role play in really horrible sims.

If theres one thing my experiences have taught me is there is no acceptable "standard" of role play that can be forced on anyone.

Prior to CoLA there were a few role play sims outside of the Gorean system but not that many. And none of them really ever took off to any extent because of their committment to enforcing a standard of roleplay, thusly causing elitism and clique based experiences which were not self sustainable in the long run.

Overall I will reiterate what I said in my discussion with you.

If you can do it better, I will personally applaud you for doing so. Because thats why I did what I did.

What I wanted wasn't in Second Life...so I made it, turns out alot of other people wanted that too and came to enjoy it with me, or went and did their own applications of the idea.

If you can be the next step in the evolution of RP in Second Life, then I can't think of a single sane person that would try to stop you.

But you know they old saying, those who dare win. Talking doesn't get much done.

I am gritting teeth not to take offense at this post as well, simply because the OP is obviously casting a broad opinion from a very narrow perspective.

Role playing sims exist in all forms and styles in SecondLife. The very nature of the platform, with no restrictions on content, creates an environment both detrimental and conducive to true roleplaying.

--all of these sims have very detailed notes on what you can't do, but no real roleplay tutorial and, thus, 1 in 4 players is a complete suckhole -- no serious RPer would be satisfied with any sim in SL right now--

Hmm. I am a serious roleplayer, as are the twenty or so other dedicated players in Darkrose, and I am quite satisfied with the sim in which we play.

Anyone who visits, and remains for a time, is encouraged to learn at least a modicum of roleplaying skill; i.e. separation of OOC from IC, creation of backstory, general freeform RP conventions, emotes, proper grammar, plot development, accessorizing, etiquette in a group setting, and other such nuances of gaming.

I am beginning to believe the OP is simply ranting, or clueless. Which, yet remains to be determined.

---I understand there's a myth about real RPers not needing combat systems that prevails in SL but, the truth is, whether you use it or not, a good, well-developed combat system -- which does not yet exist in SL -- fosters much better RP.---

How does a combat system of any sort 'foster' RP? Is a combat system not, by its very nature, intended to remove the ambiguity of an emote, and its million potential outcomes, for a definitive, competitive result between two or more individuals? Would that not detract from the true roleplaying, where a creative solution to a conflict situation could be realized? Are weapons necessary, in any way, for roleplaying?

There are fine quality environments, rich in setting, and deep in story, to be found in this medium. An individual need only spend the requisite time to actually find one which suits their needs and desires.

Perhaps it is more accuarate an assessment that the OP has not found an RPG which allows him/her to run rampant, do as they please, or shoot an adequate number of opponents to satisfy their 'roleplaying' demands. On the other hand, perhaps the OP has simply selected a narrow sampling from which to base their conclusions.

Broaden the search, and he/she might be surprised at the results.

I think the problem you're running into is that many RP sims are created by groups of friends who enjoy a particular kind of RP, and then want to involve others in it, without fully considering the dynamics of doing so. They don't want to become GMs who facilitate other people's RP, they want to do their own RP and have it enhanced by the presence of others, but as you've discovered the extent to which that works is very variable. What would the motivation be for the GMs in your example? There are apparantly some sims with GMs around but I am not sure they are in the theme you're interested in (the one I heard about, from a friend, was a cyberpunk one)



Scripts and avatars have a lot more to do with lag than prims.



Creativity is exactly the problem with combat - the reason why combat systems have to be made, as against using SL's built-in system, is exactly that SL's built-in system allows unlimited creativity. For gamist combat that's actually a problem - if you can create any weapon you like, why make anything other than one that hunts down and kills your target in one hit no matter what? Even some weapon makers I know are starting to quit or move to creating closed combat systems because SL standard combat has come down to trying to fire your volley of 10 million lightning fast, unstoppable, nuclear missiles before the other person does.

Just reading this kind of sophomoric RP question and knowing that it comes from somebody who runs a fairly popular sim in SL is further proof that RP is flat busted in SL.

Believe it or not, an interesting plot requires conflict (you probably heard that in 8th grade English -- if not, you heard it here, no charge) and it's true in every good book and movie ever made. It's also true in every good RPG and video game.

If you have no known method of backing up threats or defending yourself in an RPG, conflict is pointless. It's silly bitching -- it has no credibility. The possibility of combat -- effective, threatening combat that can go on fluidly, with a real good chance of killing you -- adds necessary tension and, thus realism.

And here we hit another hurdle: Because GMs like you let people catch onto RP over the course of a period of time whether than spelling it out for them as you did in your post, righ up front, they don't know IC from OOC. So then those who seek IC conflict -- BECAUSE IT IS FUN, AND GIVES YOUR PLAYERS INTERESTING CHALLENGES -- receive a whining bitchfest from your non-RP-knowing players who take offense to it all in character.

Also, I'm not claiming that I can do better personally, but we can certainly do better as a community. Five guys with three D&D books are doing better than this right now, and we've got computers, money, tons of players, tools and time. Seriously, it's not hard to address metagaming in a rule book.

II

You are aware, of course, that there is a vast middle ground between training bullets and lapel pins that launch orbiters and nuclear missiles?

Other than that, you're right, they are built by groups of friends. And that's annoying too because you don't have to be there 10 minutes before you realize exactly who is in the group -- and who isn't.

And people say I have a narrow vision...

II

i dont like the lack of good RP ether in the game anymore. back a year or so ago when Crimson Falls was still running, that itself was an awsome place to RP, but there were a few others you could find the the search that didnt involve full out Gor or Sexual RP. nowadays it all seems to be the same kind of thing everywhere you look. the few places that are running are all the exact same setting (post apocalyptic cites fulla cyborgs, demons and furries anyone?)
dont get me wrong, i love the setting when its done right, but its been overdone now.

the only places ive see lately with any promise in the future are Romenna (if the sims ever get finished, and opened to the public again), and possibly Crimson Falls (if it can get the sim fund together to return to active play)
they both ran on an open Rp system, but use structured life bars, and basic weapon systems to induce the feeling of danger from the various traps, and other armed thugs such as yourself roaming th sims.
i dont agree with the people who say you cant have a creative, dramatic story when your reduced to automated combat. when technically, a scripted sword is nothing more then a substitute for your old set of Dice, and that leaky old Pen. Having the weapon in your hand, dosent mean your reduced to using it immediatly, and by soly by itself without any story or explanation. thats the diffrence between good RP, and screwing around.

in the meantime, im always looking for people who want to organize something diffrent.. i make avs and props, so whipping together an RP is only as difficult as coming up with a plot. if someone has land they are willing to give up to creative vision, im sure we could come up with something as a group?

I still just see talking.

Yeah, most good, structured RP groups that aren't Gor seem to collapse in on themselves because of various drama (ironically). These ones that have been going strong pretty much just say "it's anarchy in the future!" and let everyone be anything.

I'm sorry, but as much as I like some furry avs out there it just doesn't feel realistic when I'm a realistic-looking human trying to RP a serious moment with a blue cartoon fox.

Also, vampires are corny in most formats that aren't specific to vampires...and even then it's done badly.

Good RP needs ACTUAL rules ENFORCED and limitations for people to be challenged by...just like RL. Someone needs to have the balls to NOT be involved in RP and be the behind-the-scenes facilitator to make sure the "world" as it were doesn't come apart.

The best RP I have ever been involved in was Sigil, a western RP sim that quickly branched out into 2 sims (a town and a desert) and almost just as quickly caved in on itself because of admin drama and ego stroking. Combat was clear and decisive (semi-auto weapons made it impossible to insta-kill so skill was required!) and keeping everything to the 1870s pretty much set all the rules and structure needed to keep such a deal going.

Someone needs to make a WWI RP sim complete with trench warfare and "no man's land" in the middle. Since WWI went nowhere for a long time, it would be perfect for SL RP!!

When I first started with text-only free form role play back in 1996, it was an imaginative, creative and cooperative process between two or more people in an agreed upon imaginary setting. Back then I'd thought that it would be great to have avatars and actual visual settings to facilitate the play. Fast forward to today and any avatar you want is available as well as any setting and yet without the basics it's nothing but pretty pixels.

Maybe the days of that sort of role play are gone forever, if so it's a shame. You don't need a combat system, you don't need a thousand rules and you don't need someone looking over your shoulder each moment judging whether your play is acceptable or not.

Kids role play all the time with nothing more than a stick and a box. I'm guessing they've not learned to disregard their imagination, suppress their creativity nor to compete rather than cooperate.

All hail the godplayers and moders -- my gun's bigger than yours. May the farce bewitch you.

::waves::

You've sort of answered your own point there. For online roleplaying, "text only freeform roleplay" *is* the equivalent of "the stick and the box" - it's easy to do and readily available. But people come to SL hoping that they can avoid exactly that. Unfortunately, the sad truth is that you can't have the same flexibility - good graphics and animations simply can't be produced on-demand, on-the-spot.



This _is_ a very common problem. It was in several RP sims I joined in when I was starting in SL. Visitors would ask why the RP seemed to be tilted towards a particular group of people, and they'd say, "well, we built and paid for the sim, so it's only fair." Well, there were no complaints about that, but that didn't mean visitors liked the idea of being part of the background. A few weeks later the original owner got upset that no-one was visiting.. And, of course, the people who did visit, briefly, got the message that they could "fairly" get starring RP roles by building a sim. And so the generations run...

There are very few people who are willing to pay out the money for an RP area that they wouldn't get to take part in, but unfortunately I think that's necessary. I don't know if the people who work at Blizzard even get to play WoW, but if they do, they have to level up like everyone else.

I'm aware of this, but you wanted *creativity*. Creativity in a combat environment inevitably leads to nuclear missile launching lapel pins, or to the nearest to that that the adopted system will allow.

I play at Nepenthe. Polite people, easy going, actual character sheets required. World of Darkness rules. No Half Demon Neko Angel Crap. Lots of actual roleplaying and not "Hey we're gonna stand here and brag and then oh look npc let's shoot it" or any of that stuff.

After he responded to this thread -- and I insulted him roundly -- I stopped by Gabriel's "Darkrose" sim last night and it's easily the best RP sim I've visited to-date.

Here are a few highlights:

1. It's quick and easy to learn. The rules are simple and well-stated. I'm not sure if a jump enhancer is legal or not, but nobody else there is using one, so I'm pretty confident they're not. Now I don't have to worry about how my jump enhancer is set, or when to use it (drama eliminated).

2. Friendly people there answer questions. Unlike most RP sims where players can't differentiate their asshole OOC selves from their asshole IC selves and are obnoxiously xenophobic due to their piss-poor real-life social skills, the person who stopped me on the dock was happy to answer ((ooc questions)) to help me get going while she IC interrogated me about who I was and what I was doing there.

3. Firm separation of OOC and IC, with explanations for everything that happens IG separate from OOG information to get you involved in the plot.

4. Good RP. Holy crap -- there are actual plots and timelines and factions that want to do stuff (I.e. kill Gabriel). Even though the population was a little light (it was a Tuesday night...) the rich RP compensated for it.

5. A good host. Gabriel, despite me publicly flouting him here, is a good and gracious sim host -- albeit a tyrannical ruler in-game.

6. Low lag. I crashed once in about three hours there, and it was fairly easy to walk around.

I'd give Darkrose an A and encourage all of you to try it (providing, of course, that you don't suck). And I retract my earlier statement implying that Gabriel is an exemplar of what's wrong with RP in SL. He runs an excellent sim.

The rest of you should stop by and take notes.

II

Amen.

I just wanted to make a comment about "Everwind" which is a RP sim that only just opened.

I didn't think it was fair of the OP to blow Everwind off so quickly; the sim is new and the RP is just getting started. I am there quite a bit and there are very defined rules, factions, conflict and such...the opening night ball provided the kickoff of the official role play and as of now, there is also a "quest" going on amidst the general RP. There is a ton of stuff going on there.

The owners are also very good GMs, and there are guild masters to assist the players as well. So, maybe you should visit again sometime.

Also, have you visited the Star Trek RP sim? It is vast, lots of players, active GMs, etc.

I also play in Midian and Darkrose and enjoy both - but you are right about the lag in Midian. If it weren't for the lag, it would be the ideal rp sim I would say.

my 2 cents. = )

My last foray into Midian City has come to pass and I couldn't be happier. There were quite a few gathered around the crypt outside of town so I clicked the door (never been in the crypt, didn't even know if it was secure). Now, in-game, my charactered tried to open the door. What kind of response did this get? An ooc ((QUIT CLICKING THE DOOR DAMNIT!)) which is completely inappropriate in two ways: both being a complete lack of RP and OOC obnoxious.

I don't feel obligated to take this kind of talking to (I know some imbesciles in society think tolerating this kind of stuff makes one a "bigger person," but that's just ridiculous -- things like this shouldn't be tolerated). So I told the guy to **** off and TP'd out.

So then comes the amateur GM, blowing up my chat window with how "inappropriate" I was being. Now, keep in mind, the GM, the sim owner, the guy in the crypt -- they're all friends with each other, I'm not. Certainly, the idiot in the crypt got no talking-to whatsoever -- that would be too much like trying to maintain good gameplay and RP.

So I just ripped the imbescile GM a new one for trespassing in my SL UI with retarded trash and they did me the personal favor of making sure I'm banned from all Midian City properties. Which is really the best thing for both of us -- moreso for me, obviously, because it'll keep me from slumming with bad RP'ers in a lag-filled sim.

Thanks, Midian City!

Anybody spotted any *GOOD* RP sims yet?

II

I like playing a spellcaster. The last three times I visited EW, that was impossible because nobody knew what spells were legal and which weren't (this is more typical stuff among SL combat sims -- nobody among the players have any idea which weapons are legal and which ones aren't, whether it's guns, magic, jump enhancers or anything else -- it's another reason RP and combat sims normally suck in SL). They have a "Mage's Guild," but it seems rather impossible to be a mage.

Now here's the thing: If I just say "You know, this 'freeze' spell does no objective harm to the sim or anyone else. In fact, it's not even an effective cage. I think I'll just use it -- I am a mage, afterall" -- then you're inviting a host of whiners to go bananas, who will then call in a volunteer GM who (having no leadership experience in life or anywhere else) will instantly boot you from the sim because, well, their friends don't like you.

Recently, I had a fellow threaten me in an RP sim. I walked off. He then drew his sword, crossed the courtyard towards me with it and bawled when I shot him. He then talked to somebody else, they both approached me across the courtyard, weapons drawn, so I killed them. They both whined. Then his friend began shooting me out of nowhere. I killed him -- to his credit, he didn't whine. But a group of about six from another faction decided it was time to start chain-killing me and told me to leave. So we had some RP, I agreed to leave. They started chain killing me as I walked off. So I jumped onto a building. One of them followed me -- after he and his group had been chain-killing me -- so I killed him. He whined. I was banned for "killing people without warning." Now, the whole time this was going on I had my gun drawn, saying things outloud like "If you get near me again, I'll kill you" which is a far cry from killing people "without warning." But, there was a kneejerk volunteer GM, who didn't know anything about anything, and I was kicked until another player griped to the sim's owner. Low and behold the group that was chain-killing me had a long history of griefing people in the sim and had actually been banned before.

All this kind of nonsense is exactly what is wrong with SL RP.

One thing I did find in EW was a very slow conversation in the tavern among the core group of players. If you're into slow conversations among a sim's insiders, I guess that's "fun?"

II

I went back to Everwind as per the forum respondant's suggestion and it's actually worse now for tying to be better. That's because it knows what's wrong with it, as evidenced by the changed it has attempted to make, it's just still broken.

First, let's start with the rules. Like all bad SL RP sims, they're ambiguously written and give the player no guidance. They've expanded the rulebook since my last visit, but worthlessly so. Take this chapter, which applies to me personally:

Weapons of magic are permittted. They must be safezone compatible and must work in the same manner as regular weapons with the meter we provide. Particle effects are fine and add to the fun.

First, what is a "safezone compatible" weapon? Second, how do I know which spells -- and spells, by the way, aren't cheap, you can burn a lot of L answering this question -- are compatible with their *PROPRIETARY* combat system?

Well, hey, at least they allow particle effects...

Despite all this ambiguity (and ambiguity, by the way, leads to noobs whining because nobody knows the rules and people are too weak and stupid of gamers to work it out in-game by some other method -- so they just whine) I figured I'd go ahead and play. But... my meter is out of date. So I get a new one... except none of their signs work at the entry, so I can't get a new one. In fact, I wouldn't have had the rules if not for a passerby.

And, of course, in all their backward wisdom and logic they wisely chose to make the meter no-transfer. Because... they might risk getting more players?

So, of course, it'd be unfair not to ask someone on their staff to sort it out. Afterall, no sim is perfect. They're both online, they just don't answer. But I notice the sim is crowded, so I just yell for an officer ((IN OOC)). Nothing.

Ridiculous. Thanks for the invite, but your sim has actually gotten worse. I'd rather play a MUD.

II

Ishii Ishii, I've read through the thread and I'm trying to understand your measure? What online RPG games have you tried and where would you rank them? It might help some of us who have been around longer than we care to admit. My first mind-blowing, cutting edge computer game was Pong, but omg - Mattel's Intellivision offered so much more!

Sanelron

I'm actually an owner of Everwind. I've never heard of Ishii - but when I contacted her on I.M.'s, she was very rude, demanding, and seemed to already have harsh judgement of Everwind.



Firstly, when Everwind opened, we did let our roleplayers know that magic would be delayed as we were developing a system. Plenty of people are informed of what spells are legal and aren't. So for her to use terms like "nobody" is a bit broad.

Here is what we have in our rules though.

"4I. C. No push weapons, guns, one-hit kicks, nor scripted griefing weapons of any kind will be tolerated. "

That should answer your question about guns and what is legal. As far as magic items, I've posted notices stating that all magic items can be approved through me and I've said this time and time again that all magic combat weapons should be equivalent to bows. Magic beyond that, we want to keep controlled so people don't godmod.

We've also said many times, that this is a magic system we're still developing. We haven't given a specific date as to when this system is released yet - but we're trying to base the roleplay here on roleplay, more so than combat. And we have told people that roleplay spells are fine - as long as it doesn't alter the combat itself. We want everyone on an equal battlefield.



Actually, all of our GM's have helped us with a previous sim we ran. Your only assuming that they have no previous experience. Oh, that and the fact that again - with freezes and cages, as it says in our rules, they aren't allowed so yes, you will be subject to being booted.

Ishii for the most part, had a bad experience in Everwind because she failed to read the rules and wouldn't abide by them. So we had to handle it accordingly. Everyone is welcome, but as you teleport in, there is a sign in which encourages you to read the rules. We have always told people we are trying to make Everwind a roleplay sim more so than a combat sim.

And just as an FYI - Ishii is someone that we've dealt with in the past that has a major distaste for us. So, as far as his opinion of Everwind, I encourage everyone to come see for yourself. This is the second time we've dealt with him, in which case, we had to remove him from our sim.

My message is simple, short, to the point. If you don't care for the way we run Everwind. Stay away. If you have a need to be an idiot....go for it. Just don't do it on my dime. It would however be very interesting to see first, if you ever get a job so you can actually buy your own sim, and second, to see how perfectly it's all put together and run since you seem to be quite the expert at running a sim....oh wait, I mean freeloading off a sim.

(There are certain personalities that cannot hide behind alts....and no, I didn't enjoy the movie)

Grace
Everwind Owner

Now Slip is lying to discredit me. I've been kicked from Everwind once, and that was tonight. Maybe I'd have been nicer to him if I hadn't spent half an hour trying to click his dysfunctional vendor signs and deciphering his ambiguous rulebook... or if he'd paid attention to my original IM, when I was just trying to get a little help (he was too busy to respond until I finally told him I'd had it and was giving him another nasty review on the forums -- which he deserves).

And why did Slip boot me? For the same reason all the bad RP sim owners boot me: Because you don't know anything about running a sim! Now, goodbye!

They're right: I don't know squat about running a sim. But I do know a tremendous amount about playing online games, and about RP, and the fact that you own a sim does not mean that your system works or that your players are having a good experience. Many badly run companies make really innovative online worlds (I could mention one right now, but the mods would object) and many well-run companies... SOE, NCSoft... make some horrible, horrible games.

But that's the arrogance of a sim manager: They own it, so they know if it's good. Not a very objective argument. This argument is usually a correlary to their attitude toward fair play as well -- and in SL that means the sim-owner's friends get to be in the cool crowd, and those passing through get to be the backdrop for their action. I'm not saying it's that way in EW, but his attitude certainly seems to mirror the rest of the bad sim owners I've met.

One day, when an SL RP sim owner says "I only want to do what makes the best experience for my players" there will be a great SL RP sim. Until then, we'll have crap.

Anyway, kicking me won't prevent me from reviewing his sim again in the future. For example, he should clean up his rule book. Guess what: To one person a "griefing weapon" would be a like a cage. To another person, a cage is an RP tool. It's called ambiguity, and your rulebook has way too much of it.

I'll post again and compare his progress.

II

For the record, Grace also wouldn't respond when I pinged her trying to get some help. But she is, afterall, a sim owner, and therefore knows that was the appropriate course of action.

II