Camping Stats For Your Consumption!
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Alan Bamboo
summer
Join date: 8 Oct 2006
Posts: 161
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10-06-2007 17:13
From: Fluf Fredriksson Some Camping Stats Another venture in to the mad bad world of stats crunching in SL! Being a curious stats minded sort of geek I did some digging  Ok the maths aren't perfect but here goes! First I looked at the "Popular Places" list. Jotted down the traffic numbers and checked on map for how many campers they has on each one. Two of them crashed while I was looking (Ha!). So I discarded two results as they weren't fully populated. Now dividing the traffic by the people on each island gives a rough guide to traffic per camper... I took the average across the entire "Popular Places" list minus the 2 crashes and got 1,399 as the average traffic per camper. This also told me that the most popular 18 places hold around 1,460 campers between them. I'll come to the adjustment for non-camping people later but it's a small %. Next I did a search for places with "camping" and got a nice fat list of high traffic sims which you can reasonably expect a lot of camping on. Being bored on a Saturday I actually copied across the first bunch of traffic figures. 57 of them excluding the ones I already picked up giving 75 sims in the list. For this bunch I divided the traffic figure by the 1,399 average to give me the number of campers (91090 traffic / 1,399 = 65 Campers for example), rather than check the map for each one. I did random spot checks though to see if the numbers look roughly right. Then I got more determined and checked the next 100 matches in the list ranging from 17815 to 10350 traffic. Figured out the average decrease between each one (interpolated) and filled out the table with 100 more. Seeing as that didn't hurt too much I did the same with the next 100 And note... I check the odd map while I'm doing this to see if the figures match up. Generally it looks ok. And by this time we are down to about 4 campers so time to quit. So now I have a list with 275 popular camping spots. This gives a figure of 4,603 campers in those sims. Lets be generous and allow for scooping up 5% of non-campers so 4,373 campers. Now I only searched for sims with "camping" in the title. There are plenty of camping spots out there you can find (some very popular) using "camp" or other words to search which I haven't picked up. I also skipped nearly half of the first page of high traffic "camping" sims. So I guess I missed at least 25% of the available camping spots. I'm going to take it that I missed a third of all those available. Which would equal 367 main camping sims with 5,830 campers at any one time. Now check out the main traffic stats on the SecondLife website. When I wrote this there were 33,194 in world. By my reckoning at least 18% of that figure is camping. Now watch this... Residents Logged In During Last: 7 Days = 379,139 14 Days = 553,397 30 Days = 876,756 60 Days = 1,439,292 Campers Logged In During Last: 7 Days = 40,811 = 10.8% of the total 14 Days = 81,622 = 14.7% of the total 30 Days = 174,904 = 19.9% of the total 60 Days = 349,809 = 24.3% of the total Ouch! I actually think my estimates are conservative. I reckon there's well over 6,000 campers in world at any one time. But given that 25% of LL's wonderful high traffic 60 day figure is people sitting on their asses doing nothing and probably not even at the computer ... you can see why there's no rush to sort it out. Now it gets even more fun. Take an average of 2L$ per 10 minutes for camping. Some pay more, others less. That's 12$L per hour, or 288L$ in 24 hours. 5,830 campers will shift around 70,000 L$ per hour! 1,680,000 L$ in 24 hours! Seems to be at least 6,250 USD being shifted through camping per day! Woooo! [ Yeah ok ... I admit it. I'm a geek  ] -=Added later =- So if your looking to set up shop somewhere Get the traffic count. Divide by 1400 = campers. Check the map and hover your mouse over the region. If there are more people than your camping figure you might be looking at a sim with non-campers (potential shoppers! yay!) Now THAT is cool! Heh ... now I'm off to check sims without leaving my pad! [Sadly I you can't get a number of people in a region figure using LSL. So I can't make a HUD that checks for you as you rez in to a region. I can make one you can click then say the traffic figure to, but you'd still have to check the map.] So if we got rid of campers, how much energy would be saved, in terms of them adding to global warming? Seems like all camping does is add wear and tear on your computer and wastes electricity. I know not very important, but would be interesting to hear how much energy they wasting ??? |
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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10-06-2007 18:20
From: Alan Bamboo So if we got rid of campers, how much energy would be saved, in terms of them adding to global warming? Seems like all camping does is add wear and tear on your computer and wastes electricity. I know not very important, but would be interesting to hear how much energy they wasting ??? Cool you can make a living by lagging other peoples and even your own gaming experience On the other hand people are silly enough to pay you to do so............ "Wow you making a living from that cool creative game SL? What do you make in there?" "umm , I just camp....."
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Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]
Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107)
Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107)
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Elwood Abernathy
Registered User
Join date: 8 May 2006
Posts: 20
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In World
10-07-2007 10:43
If you are referring to campers taking up places in world, - useless concurrency - then what about avatars like myself who come in world and spend a lot of time just at home doing nothing. Do you suggest we also add to concurrency and take up space?
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Brock Gladstone
Registered User
Join date: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 12
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10-07-2007 19:37
From: Meni Kaiousei That means campers PAY to camp:
Energy costs about 0.21 USD per Kwh.
In 24 hours this is: 24 x 1457.5 x 0.21 = 7,345.80 US$
6250 - 7346 = - 1,096 USD.
That means that camping costs more on energy then you earn in Lindens. Every day campers PAY 1096 USD!
So.. what is the point of camping if it actually COSTS you money? Irrelevent to people that leave their computers running 24/7... whether it's running an SL campbot or not. Everything you do in life costs you money in some shape or form... why should camping in SL be any different? Realistically, how much money am I going to save on my energy bill? Fifty cents a month? Big money. Of course, being in Canada with an abundunce of hydro-electricity helps... you pay a lot more south of the border. |
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JayDee Unknown
Registered User
Join date: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 175
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10-07-2007 20:07
From: Brock Gladstone Irrelevent to people that leave their computers running 24/7... whether it's running an SL campbot or not. Everything you do in life costs you money in some shape or form... why should camping in SL be any different? Realistically, how much money am I going to save on my energy bill? Fifty cents a month? Big money.
Of course, being in Canada with an abundunce of hydro-electricity helps... you pay a lot more south of the border. I used to do distributed folding and SETI running 5 comps 24/7. After I stopped doing that my electric bill dropped from $80 a month to $30 a month...... Yes that is $10USD a computer per month. Electric prices where I am are some of the lowest in the USA to boot. $10USD is about $2660L. |
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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10-08-2007 00:08
From: Elwood Abernathy If you are referring to campers taking up places in world, - useless concurrency - then what about avatars like myself who come in world and spend a lot of time just at home doing nothing. Do you suggest we also add to concurrency and take up space? Hmm .. basicaly yes, especially if you have a whole family/staff of alts standing around doing the same. It's fair enough for you to stay logged on 24/7 AFK, it's fair enough for the other 40 residents in the sim to do the same. Just don't complain about lag or not being able to get into your sim. What we really need is a way to leave ourselves inworld with our computers turned off then people could quit the game forever and just leave their avatars standing around. Perhaps if we could gain traffic from avatar sized cardboard cutouts?
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Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]
Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107)
Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107)
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JayDee Unknown
Registered User
Join date: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 175
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10-08-2007 10:10
I just did a manual survey of the Popular Places list. I went to each sim and manually counted the campers and also found a very interesting bot camp. I am going to write an article about this on my website soon but here are the stats I got.
I counted 1,872 avatars in the 20 sims. Out of those 1,172 were camping. 62.6% campers and most of the rest were standign around waiting for open camp spots. I did find 2 of the 20 sims has pretty legit traffic with no camping that I could find.
On top of that there was a bot camp were the owner of the place had about 50 avatars in a invisible box way up in the air. I took some pictures of this. I found it odd NONE of them were on camp pads and they all were newbie avatars either nude or stock cloths. I assumed it was a bot camp and was quickly found with the evidence to prove it. All at the same time they disappeared. Then a few minutes later they all started to reappear! This guy must have a server farm logging in and logging out his alts or he has mutliple sims and he has some kind of script that teleports them around his sims to gain traffic numbers.
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Draco18s Majestic
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2,744
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10-12-2007 09:44
This is why when I look for places to go, I hit low traffic areas, places with under 500.
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Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
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10-12-2007 11:16
From: Draco18s Majestic This is why when I look for places to go, I hit low traffic areas, places with under 500. My place, with 0 camping devices, averages 10k-15k for traffic. Like moths to a light (or, maybe better, leeches to a anything warm) campers are attracted by the word "camp" in the parcel description. Because of that, I usually go by traffic numbers but ignore places that advertise camping in their description. |
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Elwood Abernathy
Registered User
Join date: 8 May 2006
Posts: 20
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Standing around
10-12-2007 16:20
From: Tegg Bode Hmm .. basicaly yes, especially if you have a whole family/staff of alts standing around doing the same.
It's fair enough for you to stay logged on 24/7 AFK, it's fair enough for the other 40 residents in the sim to do the same. Just don't complain about lag or not being able to get into your sim.
What we really need is a way to leave ourselves inworld with our computers turned off then people could quit the game forever and just leave their avatars standing around.
Perhaps if we could gain traffic from avatar sized cardboard cutouts? I own the sim so it really doesn't matter to me |
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Fluf Fredriksson
Registered User
Join date: 8 Feb 2007
Posts: 248
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10-12-2007 17:22
From: Sindy Tsure My place, with 0 camping devices, averages 10k-15k for traffic. Neat. I was wondering how high the non camp zones go in the traffic figures. My best guess so far was around 8k. If I'm looking for something these days I've actually taken to doing a search for a keyword in "Shopping" category only, then reversing the traffic sort order (just click above the traffic column), and investigating from the least visited upwards. Bonus is that you tend to find the obscure but good stuff that isn't widely advertised. Yeah well, along with the overpriced and under developed |
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Draco18s Majestic
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2,744
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10-13-2007 18:25
From: Sindy Tsure My place, with 0 camping devices, averages 10k-15k for traffic.
Like moths to a light (or, maybe better, leeches to a anything warm) campers are attracted by the word "camp" in the parcel description. Because of that, I usually go by traffic numbers but ignore places that advertise camping in their description. You misunderstood me. I look for /camping places/ with under 500 traffic. With such low traffic the place falls into one of three catagories: lier (no chairs), stiffer, (bad rate), or cash cow (no one's been there before). |
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Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
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10-13-2007 18:39
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Burnman Bedlam
Business Person
Join date: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,080
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10-16-2007 13:39
I wonder how much less lag there would be... grid wide... if there was no camping in SL. I wonder how many more people would have stayed in SL if there was less lag as a result.
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Draco18s Majestic
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2,744
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10-16-2007 13:57
From: Burnman Bedlam I wonder how much less lag there would be... grid wide... if there was no camping in SL. I wonder how many more people would have stayed in SL if there was less lag as a result. I think it'd be relatively minor. It'd only make a difference in the few sims who use up the sim alotment of agents in camping. But no one goes there anyway (they can't get in: there's a full sim of campers), so... |
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Day Oh
Registered User
Join date: 3 Feb 2007
Posts: 1,257
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10-16-2007 15:56
That's right, once you're connected to a sim, it's just you and the sim talking. Actually though, normal users (not bots) would be downloading textures and stuff while camping, which I guess would be some work for the asset server. Hmm, also, a camping bot wouldn't connect to multiple (adjacent) sims like normal users would, and it could tell the sim to not send data it doesn't need, like objects, clouds, and wind. A case for camp bots there P: Anyway, it doesn't seem camping would have much grid-wide impact... Maybe eliminating it would allow people to log in more easily after grid downtime...
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papa Tulip
Registered User
Join date: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 59
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10-17-2007 02:13
From: JayDee Unknown I just did a manual survey of the Popular Places list. I went to each sim and manually counted the campers and also found a very interesting bot camp. I am going to write an article about this on my website soon but here are the stats I got.
...
On top of that there was a bot camp were the owner of the place had about 50 avatars in a invisible box way up in the air. I took some pictures of this. I found it odd NONE of them were on camp pads and they all were newbie avatars either nude or stock cloths. I assumed it was a bot camp and was quickly found with the evidence to prove it. All at the same time they disappeared. Then a few minutes later they all started to reappear! This guy must have a server farm logging in and logging out his alts or he has mutliple sims and he has some kind of script that teleports them around his sims to gain traffic numbers. Should be no problem with a chat-only-client like sleek. Is uses about 50K memory I think, loads no textures (less bandwith) and a good machine should be able to run 50 AVs on a fast DSL line. |
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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10-17-2007 04:23
From: someone I wonder how much less lag there would be... grid wide... if there was no camping in SL. I wonder how many more people would have stayed in SL if there was less lag as a result. That is a very interesting question. If the most recent statistical sample in this thread were representative, without campers the grid could be twice as responsive. There is one confounding variable though: zombies don't get frustrated with bad performance, players do. Therefore as the grid becomes more congested, one might expect the ratio of zombies/players to increase. The reductio ad absurdum would be that as the game gets less responsive, the ratio would tend asymptotically to infinity. Then you'd be left with a bunch of zombies generating traffic numbers for no one to look at.  I expect that most zombies are not running reduced clients, but it would obviously be hard to test that premise from outside. In my totally non-random look at campsites, they are visually busy with many object updates. Also, every fidget of an avatar or flash of bling requires transmission to all the others in view distance. As real players congregate far less densely than bots, it is entirely possible that camping bots are more resource intensive than a regular player. Yes, even though many of the computational duties are delegated out to the sims on the grid, there is only one pipeline out of each of the two server rooms and that winds up being the limiting resource. I'd just learned of the CSI/SL TV show. I'd be slightly surprised if camping policy doesn't change abruptly after that "best and worst advertisement for SL" hits the ether. |
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Draco18s Majestic
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 2,744
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10-17-2007 21:49
From: Malachi Petunia Also, every fidget of an avatar or flash of bling requires transmission to all the others in view distance. Not...quite. Particles and some LSL commands that do pseudo object movement are just numbers and the client handles it. So very small one time transmition that happens once. |
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Day Oh
Registered User
Join date: 3 Feb 2007
Posts: 1,257
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10-17-2007 23:45
From: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Packet_Accounting Bandwidth throttling is calculated on 7 different types of data:
* Resend - Resending of reliable packets with no ACK
* Land - Land layer data
* Wind - Wind layer data
* Cloud - Cloud layer data
* Task - Updates to anything the simulator considers a task (Objects, Agents, etc...)
* Texture - Image files
* Asset - Object Data, Animations, Gestures, Sounds, etc... Clients can ask the simulator to entirely stop sending them any of those things. If you ask me... if someone who does nothing but camp camp camp isn't using a reduced viewer, they SHOULD!  From: Malachi Petunia there is only one pipeline out of each of the two server rooms and that winds up being the limiting resource In that case, aaaaaargh D: |
