Terror will rain down upon the unfit gods and the flock that they govern, from now un

Aw Nika, hate is way way too strong a word. Hatred is a terrible thing!

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just for the fun of contributing nothing of value here ...
i'll say that ...

imma no-pay ...

and admittedly, i have a low regard for Second Life
and towards a number of people on it ... but im still here

and much to the dismay of 2 sim owners ...
i did crash 2 sims previously, defending myself against griefers
... i guess that made me a griefer too ...

however i do spend about $40USD per month buying all kinds of stuff,
uploading any number of things, and supporting live music with my tips

i know its not very much ...

but would i be thought of better if i were a payer
and spent nothing more? ...

what would that be ... only $9.95?

ok then ... say you dont need my fricken 40 dollars

and besides there are 16yo school drop outs
who can hack better than those with Engineering Degrees


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Don't read judgment in my statements. I have been a basic member for months only becoming premium until recently. Even when I was a basic member I believed there shouldn't be any, but saw no need to upgrade.

I have never stated that all basic members are griefers, etc. Like all of SL, I believe the majority of residents are fair and decent people. Most RL laws were created due to the actions of a few not the majority.

If anyone wants to take a personal offense at the argument that's their issue, not mine.

I betting they aren't, do you think most of these 1000's of disposable suicidal griefers are created using "credit card info on file"?
I think everyone should have payment info on file even if they don't use it after spending $10US.
Instead we have free unverified people can grief and suck money out of the game to their hearts content.
Sorry but if people who can't contribute a single RL cent to the growth/maintenance of SL, they have no right to complain about anything. Most of the "needed" unverifieds aren't creators you know and will tell you to your face they think they shouldn't pay for things inworld either.
Otherwise I'm sure LL can pay the staff, utilities and parts suppliers in SL Escort vouchers, prim skirts & used sploderballs.

Wow, I hope the recent griefing attacks have you wrapped a little tighter than normal. But I have to disagree with you Tegg. Just because someone doesn't have payment on file doesn't mean they don't contribute to the economy. I'm sure many of our best creators don't and they contribute by offering a product to sell.

I'm more concerned about not being able to track an individual who griefs because of the 15 minutes their av is in use during the grief. Even if Michael is correct in what he said earlier, that it's likely paying individuals who are doing most of the griefing, there is no way to track them down because they are doing the griefing as basic alts.

The number of actual creators contributing to the economy that don't have payment info on file would be rather small from what I see in profiles when shopping, and I'm sure they could get payment info on file if it was necessary to stay in SL. Is there something making it unethical for a content creator to put $10US into the game once to be verified? Considering some content creators are cashing much more than this out regularly (and many deserve to do so for the work they put in too).
Indeed premium members like my main contribute little proportionly to the SL economy other than regular tier, but my "payment info on files" put near $100US a month into the economy buying things. And I suspect it is the "payment info on file"'s who are contributing most RL dollars into it that truly keep the economy floating by way of numbers.
Creators can make all the prim stuff they want but if nobody has payment info on file to buy their stuff, it isn't going to work, encouraging the mass population we have now of non contributing "no payment info on file" people we have now isn't going to help content creators one bit. People with payment info on file are more prone to buy more stuff on impulse than those who beg and camp for $200 to buy something.
If griefing individuals need a new credit card number everytime they grief, it's got to be harder for them and deter a lot of the lesser skilled ones.

Are we talking about "really clever hackers"? Or are we talking about people who know how to rezz an object they've obtained elsewhere?

I think it's probably true to say that most serious griefing attacks will be carried out by AVs who are "no payment info", simply because you would have to be really stupid to do something like that with an account you had paid for, or even with an account that could be linked to a paid account. If I was going to launch a grid attack I certainly wouldn't use Wulfric to do it, I'd create a "no paymeny info" alt that could be banned without affecting me.

However, that of course does not mean that these are not alts of premium members, but there is no evidence either way.

You can't really make that argument since you have no way of knowing what happens to your money.

Maybe you spend $100US on a top designer in which case your $100US gets cashed out as profit and not a cent of your money ends up with LL (the LindeX isn't necessarily profit for LL so you can't claim the buy/sell fees as income).

What you spend every month may get fully cashed out to cover tier, or it may get fully cashed out as profit, or it may simply be someone else's spending money. There's no way you can tell.

LL likes premiums because they know exactly how much money they're putting in, and the majority of them represent reliable and recurring income at a much higher profit margin than any account renting from a landlord (virtually no profit for LL there).

I have payment recorded only because I started that way. I live as a resident on a private island, sell stuff there, pay rent to the island owner, and occasionally feed a few rl dollars in via slexchange.com.

I see no point in going premium, or even having that "payment made" on my record. If I were to start now I would not move any money through the lindex.

PI owners need to pay their tier in rl cash, so many of their residents are paying them in rl dollars. No lindex involved there.

It seems to me that LL are trying to divest themselves of premium members and just want to deal with the private island owners. Look at the numbers!

Yep and the examples you gave are contributing to the economy regardless, and my spending is pretty well spread about SL's creators, I buy a wide weird variety of stuff, a premium spending is even better of course, but value to the economy of people who don't cash in or create?
If LL likes premiums so much why are there little benifits to encourage more of them and why do they only account for a very small percentage of the online population?

My intuition tells me the average premium account is spending more money in SL than the average payment info on file non premium, with the exception of renters. This is because if you're paying money on either tier or a substantial rent, you're also committing time to SL and spending money on your home and your avie.

And certainly, premium accounts will, on average, be spending more money in SL than no payment info on file, just because most spenders are not also makers.

It has to do with perspective as well. If I am willing to drop a small amount of real money on land every month, dropping a small amount of real money (but which is a lot of L) on my avie every month doesn't seem like a big deal. I just went shopping at Midgaard sim and spent about L3000. It's cheaper than dinner and a movie, and I'll get mileage out of the pretty gowns when I'm out socializing.

I hate shopping in RL. But in SL, I normally buy only the best, since in RL terms it's not that much. I think the transition to thinking of it as "not that much" isn't there if you're a free account and 100L seems like a lot to you. But to me it's just change in a vending machine, because I'm used to converting L to $ in my mind.

You might want to research this a bit further. I am willing to bet the LindeX brings in a pretty penny for LL.

Not that I have a problem with it. The LindeX is a win-win for all of us. Thank you LL for providing us with a means by which to facilitate our exchange and enjoy a bit of profit ourselves.

http://www.secondlifeinsider.com/2007/07/13/currency-fees-will-probably-rise-thinks-zee-linden/


That's (most likely) about LindeX fees though (the 30 cents per buy order, and 3.5% per sell order), which is what I meant as well.

For Supply Linden specifically, SL's growth is steadily diminishing and what LL sells in L$ today now pales in comparison to what they used to make.

Ah, but your exception is rapidly becoming the norm. All those islands on the map are paying tier, and most of that property is subdivided and rented out. And mainland renting is also now becoming popular. Tier for nearly all rental property is ultimately paid for by "payment info on file" non-premium residents.

I think the meaningful distinction is between land-renting-or-owning, and the unlanded. Premium/nonpremium is increasingly irrelevant. ~70% of LL's revenue is tier, ~20% premium fees, the rest Lindex, upload etc. fees. (This is from LL's numbers.) Let's face it, anyone who is shelling out money for real estate is plowing money into the economy. And LL cares about the size of SL's economy, even if they themselves don't ever see any money from the transactions.

Just anecdotally, nearly all the people I know inworld are not premium, nearly everyone I see in the clothing store I hang out at is non-premium, and they drop bundles of cash into SL. I am only 8 months old, so perhaps this is simply a reflection of the changing demographics in SL.