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The financial dangers of island living - LL complicit but shirking all responsibility

Nika Talaj
now you see her ...
Join date: 2 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,449
10-29-2007 18:18
From: Ciaran Laval
Ironically I was at Robin Linden's office hour last week where people were suggesting that LL should hand over control of mainland to a third party of some sort.
Lindens, or residents, were suggesting this?
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
10-29-2007 19:23
From: Kitty Barnett
That's more of a mistake though. If someone's providing the land free, resale should be disabled :(.


Not only was resale disabled in those days, it wasn't an allowed feature at that time.

What was happening was that people would simply agree to let someone else move in, for $L. It was a bit different back in those days.

I and some of the Caledon estate managers actually helped beta test a lot of the private estate land functionality, but these days it has been shut off for well over a year in Caledon, due to factors discussed in this thread.
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Brenda Connolly
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10-29-2007 19:57
From: Ciaran Laval

Ironically I was at Robin Linden's office hour last week where people were suggesting that LL should hand over control of mainland to a third party of some sort.

Can you say Coldwell Banker....... :rolleyes:
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Colette Meiji
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Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
10-29-2007 20:40
From: Brenda Connolly
Can you say Coldwell Banker....... :rolleyes:


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Kitty Barnett
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Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
10-29-2007 20:42
From: Desmond Shang
Not only was resale disabled in those days, it wasn't an allowed feature at that time.

What was happening was that people would simply agree to let someone else move in, for $L. It was a bit different back in those days.
Ah okies, nothing you could have done about that.

And quite a low thing for those tenants to do :(.
Burgundy Rahja
Registered User
Join date: 2 Oct 2006
Posts: 31
10-29-2007 21:41
After a lot of discusion and IMs today, there have been a couple of comments which I believe are worthwhile capturing.

1.I think that LL should institute something like an owners association for SIMs where land is sold. This owners association should cover the tier of the SIM. he SIM owner could be required to have a minumum balance .. something like a months tier in the account.

2 Another suggestions was something like renters insurance. Coverage against acts of Linden Labs.

Thanks for all this discussion.

Meanwhile LL has promise to open the SIM for 1 hour so I can scoot in and retrieve my stuff. Unforntately, some of the deeded stuff was from people who have left SL ... so that will be gone. Pictures. Furniture they made me. Other stuff I will get back. I am meanwhile hunting mainland land.

Burg.
Jackson Rickenbacker
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Join date: 8 Oct 2006
Posts: 601
10-29-2007 21:52
From: Jannae Karas
See above.

This sort of sale is a great idea. My rant is against paying large sums to "buy" estate land when there are so many deals like the sale for $1 availiable.



Unfortunately Jannae, this type of bargain hunting estate land is what results in the problems that alot of people face when they put thier home on a sim with a less than caring sim owner. From my point of view , if a Sim owner is selling his sim land for $L1, THATS EXACTLY WHAT ITS WORTH. no denying this inturpretation, but look deeper, your going to find higher land fees generally, your going to find all kinds or what I like to call, "lost mainland rats" that since they didnt really put any money upfroint, have no reguard or respect for thier neighbors,...

And while we are talking about Mainland rats.... er I am anyway thier is ultimately two reasons why estate land does indeed sell #1 reason, mainland rats, .... you've seen them, thier Kentucky Fried Chicken buckets atop their flaming camper toilet chimney, their Alfred E Newman poster staring that horrifying grin in every direction, not to mention thier lime green super batmobile andodd looking crooked walls.... Sadly , they are the better ones...

#2 reason, adcutters, ... yes thats right folks you to can have a streaming hot plot of junk right next to you, all around you if you chose your space wisely, and whats this going to cost you? well lets se, lag, horrendious views, nieghbors you wonder if you should be cjecking the SL database on avatar pedophilia. and speaking of nieghbors, whats with that neighbors pet taking a dump on mybilly ray cyrus poster? are those things actually scripted for that?...

Point is the reason estates do sell, is because all the BS that is on the mainland, and unless you want a police state on mainland, that will always be that way. Truw, your going to find your share of crap estate owners out there, I would suggest to anyone loing at estate land to follow a few simple rules

1 Skip by the L$1 sale ads, they are full of desparate sim owners, who have put themselves in that position with thier actions or mismanagement, good sim owners dont need to sell at rock bottom prices, most like myself are always sold out, so plots on my sims go for good value prices, plus tiers arent too bad!.

2 Treat the purchase like you would a real purchase, look into the neighborhood, check out the landlord, google thier name, get as much information as you can, information is power

3 READ THE COVENANTS!, many sim owners, like myself (shameless plug) treat thier covenats like a contract, I never am bound by what I want to do, I AM bound by what I state I'll do in my covenats, that is the residents protections also, not just rules and scenerios for booting you out

so in recap, don't be guiliable for the bargain deal, theres a reason its a bargain, do your homework and reseach your prospective landlord, and make sure you can agree and abide by the covenants... because, there is absolutely nothing pretty or peaceful about the mainland

and to the OP, I feel for you, it stinks that this type of collusion goes on between the company and the purchasers/sellers of Sims
Steve Mahfouz
Ecstasy Realty
Join date: 1 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,373
10-29-2007 22:03
From: Desmond Shang




The 'land buy' mechanism is dangerously misleading, as are the words 'buy' and 'own' which I think should be removed utterly from the grid.

/agreed
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
10-29-2007 22:16
From: Kitty Barnett
Ah okies, nothing you could have done about that.

And quite a low thing for those tenants to do :(.


Well... I can't entirely consider them evil, considering the ultracapitalistic situation that was early 2006 (which got worse in early 2007!) Culturally it was par for the course, and strictly it was my fault for not forseeing the situation.

But at first blush it does seem a bit of a stretch to make money that way, yes? Simply didn't occur to me at the time, until it happened.

Though, in the end I effectively paid a few people to stay a few months! In fact, it was a combination of me and the new residents coming in that footed the bill.

I doubt *anyone* would believe this, but the #1 reason I charge an up front fee is simply to discourage such hardcore speculation. Such speculation can really be *very* damaging to a community that includes college students and retired folk. Even charging what I do, I *still* have people willing to throw even more money my way just to make me expand the estate faster.

Yeah, odds of anyone believing this: 0.1%. But... oh I wish some of you could look over my shoulder some days. It's just insane, the addiction to land that many residents have.

* * * * *

I deal with people and land every day, and have for about 20 months now. If there is any land advice I'd give to a new user, it would (perhaps cryptically?) be this:

"Risk from mainland: low. Risk from private estates: still kinda low. BUT! Don't get a lot of land AND an SL sweetie."

Guess what happens when the sweetie becomes the ex. Kaboom! On average, I'd guess a loss of typically $L 25k worth of land in the typical SL 'divorce' just because both parties are so upset they make financial mis-steps on exit.

That's your biggest risk factor of all right there, and if you make it past 60 days with one person in SL consider yourself lucky.
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Steve Mahfouz
Ecstasy Realty
Join date: 1 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,373
10-29-2007 22:35
As I was taking a shower this morning, I was pondering whether LL could program an initial popup that gently warns land buyers/sellers that there are complexities involved not immediately apparent to the untrained eye and that it would be *wise* to get educated. The popup would point them to a URL with the basic information laid out, and more links for the curious at the basic education URL. Yes, I know, this all involves reading *sigh*

As silly as this may sound, SL real estate has its own complexities just as RL real estate does. Aren't you so glad in real life that you can't *accidentally* click a button and lose your home for one dollar/euro ?

The other half-baked idea I had whilst showering, was to require people to read (ZOMGWTFBBQ!) a cautionary statement upon first buying land, that is a tad more detailed than the current statement. As in, once you sell the land for one linden, it instantly goes into the land database and may be purchased *instantaneously* by any purchaser.

I've accidentally sold land myself for one linden but I was lucky enough to have a nice land baron who allowed me to sell it to him for the going market price. I was lucky. That taught me quickly to slow down and be super careful.
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Raindrop Drinkwater
Globally Creative
Join date: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 240
10-29-2007 23:21
From: Desmond Shang
But... oh I wish some of you could look over my shoulder some days. It's just insane, the addiction to land that many residents have.

Addiction to land??? I don't know what you're talking about.

*twitches*
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
10-29-2007 23:30
From: Steve Mahfouz
As I was taking a shower this morning, I was pondering whether LL could program an initial popup that gently warns land buyers/sellers that there are complexities involved not immediately apparent to the untrained eye and that it would be *wise* to get educated. The popup would point them to a URL with the basic information laid out, and more links for the curious at the basic education URL. Yes, I know, this all involves reading *sigh*

As silly as this may sound, SL real estate has its own complexities just as RL real estate does. Aren't you so glad in real life that you can't *accidentally* click a button and lose your home for one dollar/euro ?

The other half-baked idea I had whilst showering, was to require people to read (ZOMGWTFBBQ!) a cautionary statement upon first buying land, that is a tad more detailed than the current statement. As in, once you sell the land for one linden, it instantly goes into the land database and may be purchased *instantaneously* by any purchaser.

I've accidentally sold land myself for one linden but I was lucky enough to have a nice land baron who allowed me to sell it to him for the going market price. I was lucky. That taught me quickly to slow down and be super careful.
Best idea and post I've ever seen from you, Steve. A pop up that leads people to a URL is much needed. I hope they get their crap together and take the few minutes neccessary to put that in place someday.
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
10-30-2007 00:19
From: Nika Talaj
Lindens, or residents, were suggesting this?


Residents were suggesting that LL allow someone else to manage mainland. The logic being that LL aren't capable of doing it as well as estate managers. I didn't agree myself.
Stephen Zenith
Registered User
Join date: 15 May 2006
Posts: 1,029
10-30-2007 02:15
From: Jackson Rickenbacker

1 Skip by the L$1 sale ads, they are full of desparate sim owners, who have put themselves in that position with thier actions or mismanagement, good sim owners dont need to sell at rock bottom prices, most like myself are always sold out, so plots on my sims go for good value prices, plus tiers arent too bad!.


Nonsense. Absolutely nonsense. If you're operating a rental business, you aren't looking to make money on the initial sale. I'd set it to 0L if I could, but then I'd have to be around to set every plot available to the correct person, which I can't guarantee.

Desperate? My two existing sims are full. My new one, which I only opened on Sunday is over half full, and I haven't even released all the plots to the public yet.
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Ingrid Ingersoll
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Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
10-30-2007 09:32
From: Burgundy Rahja


1. Linden labs shows land from islands in their Land Search page along with mainland land. As a land purchaser, they is no warnings posted that the land purchased on islands is "not guaranteed". It is shows along with the mainland, and as it is presented there is no indication that the transaction of purchasing the land is any less secure. Having purchased the land, I was listed in the SL page as being the "owner". The same status as some one from the mainland.


You are absolutely right about this. There are some beautiful island sims out there but unless you know the person holding the bag (the island) is prepared to own the island for as long as you'll want to live there, it's not a good option.

It's also one of the reasons I've always encouraged people to buy on the mainland, in older, established sims where there isn't so much land turnover as the new ones. I have quite a bit of mainland that I'm happy with.
Maklin Deckard
Disillusioned
Join date: 9 Apr 2005
Posts: 459
10-30-2007 11:32
From: Cristalle Karami
My view is that these complaints will always exist, even if LL put in such warnings. Why? Because people don't like to read. Can you imagine what such a warning would look like, to be effective? The whole screen would have to be blue. And even then, eyes would glaze over and just click "ok" or "ignore."

LL cannot win on this one. They can make some improvements... but they can't win. There will always be people making this kind of complaint.


So its a zero-sum game to you? Since LL can't 'win' with 100% it shouldn't do anything to improve the situation? They need to get off their asses, take estate land out of search OR make it a separate tab, AND put in a warning. If it stops this sort of thing even 25% of the time, its better than the current situation.

LL complicit? They sure as hell are! LL added estate into the land tab KNOWING this could happen, merely to kiss up to big estate barons buying sims and then they cop out of the resulting chaos with 'can't help, member to member dispute'. Despicable behavior from LL.
Rioko Bamaisin
Unstable Princess
Join date: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 4,668
10-30-2007 11:33
Why do some islands charge an upfront purchase fee? I don't understand that,since you never really own it and can lose it for any reason at any time.
Okiphia Rayna
DemonEye Benefactor
Join date: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 2,103
10-30-2007 11:35
From: Rioko Bamaisin
Why do some islands charge an upfront purchase fee? I don't understand that,since you never really own it and can lose it for any reason at any time.

same reason LL does.

Technically you're renting from LL as well.. anyway if they didn't charge that, their tier would be larger so they could both afford the full sim tier, and make a proft (And pay for their initial cost as well)
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Rioko Bamaisin
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Join date: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 4,668
10-30-2007 12:03
From: Okiphia Rayna
same reason LL does.

Technically you're renting from LL as well.. anyway if they didn't charge that, their tier would be larger so they could both afford the full sim tier, and make a proft (And pay for their initial cost as well)



But LL isn't going to pack up and leave tomorrow.(I hope not,lol.)Plus you can do what you want with that land and sell it when you want. So that's a lot closer to actually "owning" than island land.

I can understand trying to make their investment back though....
Nika Talaj
now you see her ...
Join date: 2 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,449
10-30-2007 12:10
From: Rioko Bamaisin
Why do some islands charge an upfront purchase fee? I don't understand that,since you never really own it and can lose it for any reason at any time.
I paid it because I didn't see a comparable build anywhere, and I view it as compensating the owner for the time spent on the build and covenant enforcement. My rent is actually 1USD/mo cheaper than tier would be on the same size parcel. If I were to pay using paypal instead of Lindens, it would be cheaper yet.

Also, I do have a chance to recover some or all of it, since I can resell it. (If, of course, the sim is still in business when I want to sell.)
Lucy Zelmanov
Registered User
Join date: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 178
10-30-2007 13:27
On one island sim I had to pay an upfront payment to secure the land ( a reasonable amount by the way) when I decided to leave that island I sold the plot on for a small but nice profit. The sim I currently rent on, is rent up front, so the most I stand to lose is a months rent.
Regardless of the method used to secure the land, in the event of a sim owner going under, the reasonable thing would be for LL to offer the land to the listed residents and give them the option of paying their share of the teir directly.
Rents are higher than teir so it would infact cost less, and any unasigned land could be offered to the existing residents without causing them any undue finacial hardship.
This is not the same as making it mainland as the land can no longer be sold only abandoned, with an existing resident having the opertunity to take over the teir payments on abandoned plots in that eventuality.
Ultimatly the sim would end up either being abandoned and deleted, or being taken over by one resident/group and therefore revert to a standard Island payment setup.
Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
10-30-2007 13:40
From: Lucy Zelmanov

Regardless of the method used to secure the land, in the event of a sim owner going under, the reasonable thing would be for LL to offer the land to the listed residents and give them the option of paying their share of the teir directly.
That will never happen with the current structure...Islands can only be owned by a sole resident.
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
10-30-2007 13:40
From: Rioko Bamaisin
Why do some islands charge an upfront purchase fee? I don't understand that,since you never really own it and can lose it for any reason at any time.


Here's an example of why, if you'll bear with a story.

I started in Feb 2006. In short order I had a waiting list of about 50 people trying to get in - but the sim was full.

Some of them literally started showering me with $L - I am talking TENS of THOUSANDS of $L to open the next sim provided they got a spot there. I was reluctant, and kept returning it - it made no sense.

Meantime, the lots I let for nothing upfront were getting 'sold' to other residents, with initial tenants making tens of thousands of $L.

The initial Caledon sim I saved up for, via SL business, selling chairs and stuff for $L 50 one at a time, then eventually some houses.

Imagine it. Making the downpayment on an island $L 50 and $L 100 at a time, occasionally a sale for $L 3000 or something. Not easy!

So to see the money I'd paid for Caledon basically handed out... wow. Okay, I didn't forsee it, can't blame anyone really, but, this was just crazy.


So I said to everyone dying to get in: fine! Here's the risks, here's what I do, it's quite transparent, and I'll even bank 90 days of tier (more than I let anyone pay ahead) and give warning should the tier reserve get in trouble.

That was about 20 months ago. I'm at 2 million square meters in a few weeks, and I *still* can't discourage anyone.

Land downtown in Victoria City has *consistently* gone for $L 40 to $L 50 a meter for the past year - no joke, little I can do to stop it - and guess what I charged up front to the people wanting in?

$L 4 per meter.

Not near enough to even cover the sim payment, just enough to strongly reduce blatant land flipping at my direct expense.

Quite a few people had a great time, sold tons of stuff and then cashed out making a factor of ten.

Do I begrudge them any of this? Not a bit, unless they were trying to gouge anybody. But when people come and *offer* that kind of money to existing residents, I can't hardly blame them for taking it.

When I charge $L 4/m up front, it's almost laughable in a situation like that - if anyone is the patsy in the above story, it's me.

I work my tail off daily making Caledon a good place, which ends up allowing others to cash out like that.

I'll continue to charge nonreturnable, up-front fees for Caledon land. It's exactly like a key fee to get into an exclusive city apartment, and ensures that I get at least *something* back for my efforts in the near term. If anyone decides that paying it is a bad deal, I respect that choice completely.
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Wildefire Walcott
Heartbreaking
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 2,156
10-30-2007 13:44
From: Raymond Figtree
This is usually where I list the names of the estate owners I know and trust, but I invariably get crap for it, because I always leave a few of the good ones out. So please IM me or send a PM here if you want my list of all-star estate owners (like Sarah Nerd, Kandee Herrey and Darien Caldwell TO NAME JUST A FEW!) :)

*narrows her eyes at the hamster*
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Rioko Bamaisin
Unstable Princess
Join date: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 4,668
10-30-2007 13:49
I guess I should have clarified my posts better. Basically I was going under the (wrong?) impression a lot of island owners do not let you re-sell the land. So you never even get back your intial purchase price. If resell is possible,then I understand a buyer paying the intial purchase price.:)



I wish people would throw lindens at me.:o
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