To Linden Lab: New Age Identification Process

To Linden Lab:

Myself and many others are against the newly proposed age identification process.

First of all, it is illegal to use the social security card in the USA for anything other than what it is intended for... even though it is done. I am sure given the right circumstances a lawyer may like to make this his/her case.

Secondly, it is the same for other countries and furthermore, it is NOT done under any circumstances.

I seriously doubt this will protect you from liability claims.

What is to prevent a minor from taking their parents info, etc? This cannot be controlled.

Let us stick with credit card verification or simply "OK".

Minors are not allowed on SL adult grid, however the truth be known there is NO way to control minors coming and going and this will not protect yourself in a virtual world that spans and represents countries and cultures across the globe with different age laws and laws concerning the age verification process.

Many of us in Europe may not drive because we use the train, etc. Even if we do, I am not certain that we want to share our personal ID numbers with Linden Lab or its representative. I do not plan on it. No one I know shall do it and we all are premium customers, many who own land, some who have been long term customers.

Many customers who have been paying for years refuse to prove that they are of legal consent when in fact they have already proven it by the standards which were in effect upon their join date. We question the legality to ask a customer to verify their age again after Linden Lab has already accepted the registration and age proof verification that it currently had in place at the time of their registration. Perhaps this new process can be used for new residents but I seriously doubt from a legal perspective that it can be used for pre-existing residents prior to the new age identification process.

Some wonder why Linden Lab did not ask for this new information upon charging our credit card or paypal account for land, etc. for "x" number of months, years.

I am completely against the new age verification process and so is everyone else that I know.

How much money and how many customers do you plan to lose as a result of this before you finally realize that the new age verification process is the wrong method to use, especially with pre-existing customers? I seriously doubt that you will win many new customers either.

What will your sponsors or business partners or corporate clients think once you begin to lose massive customers? Will you think then only to realize that it is too late to undo the damage done?

Please bear in mind that SecondLife is not the only virtual reality program in the world. I am sure that others will come along, too. It is better to think this carefully through before you risk more than what you may be willing to lose in the end. Listen to the people. Many of us are unhappy as it is with customer service issues, high land fees and now this? What is next?


Vryl Valkyrie

>> Applause <<

Nicely said. SL is fun, but in the end RL is still better. It just won't be worth the hassle.

Social Security number LOL New Rules ? More control ?
Poor Linden Lab when you go to understand that the real world is different
I am wondering is it because you are an American company ? I don't know but
verification through a SS number thats something wich is lets say not real appreciated.
Even worse people NEVER EVER give here their SS to any company in this country
The netherlands for your information but you have my CC card so you already knew it is me lol

When i need the SS number of my kid here for a school for example I need to go to the cityhall and show my beautifull and cool face on the counter and identify myself before i even get the number. Not through email not on the phone NO sir you must show up....

So an American company asking for a social security number I dont know,it makes me some suspicious ?
Is it real for age verification ? I doubt it, yes guys you are in the wrong country as I doubt my tax guy will give you my age based on my SS number.

To be honest I am some depressed on it, After doing 2 years business with you for now I become the hunted one.The suspicious one , even worse maybe the underaged one... But I am wondering... Reuters.. Nike.. all those other compnaies Do you really think there all runned by kids under 18 ???

When you start to charge my CC 2 years ago for the land I own
you never asked me any questions so I am a little bit in shock now...
Wakey Wakey Linden Lab....

Dont threat your clients like morons. The worse part 10l$ to do this LOL, are you investors walking away ? Or you really need 10l$ per user to survive ?

A lot of people playing in SL PREFER to stay anonymous as they do their roleplay and phantasy So I am wondering how many players will leave you as they cant do that anonymous anymore... '

Ask in your company who identify himself when he visit a sexcinema or go to a sexshop or a gaybar or a strippers club as we both know some people in your company do...

So my question is whats next ? Integaration in Guantamo Bay to make sure we are who we claim to be..
Maybe the source of the problem is in your political climate You had a president with a girl and a cigar that started it maybe..

I don't understand why the simple "Yes I am over 18" checkbox and a credit card aren't enough? It works for all the other Adult sites that I have seen, and some have some pretty freaky stuff. Until someone gives me a good reason for it , this will be nothing than a way to tie us to our avi's for primarily marketing purposes, but also I think financial ones as well.

heh, here's a scary thought. Well will have our RL tied into our SL. We will also have voice. So now it would be possible to make use of voice recognition and connect our voice imprints to our RL data....

Way out there? Gads I hope, but not out of the realm of possibility.

Wow...Vryl actually put everyone's rants into a coherent and well-written whole. So...how about we all sign this letter and hand it to LL?

Greetings all:

Hi Kenn,

Thanks for your post and suggestion. I agree with you. Let us all do that.


Vryl Valkyrie

What's this? Neither my husband or I have driving licences due to him having epilepsy and me never having the nerve to take my test lol. We don't like taking holidays abroad so we do not have current passports. So what happens now?

Although I agree 100% with the sentiment of the OP, one point is false and should not be used in argument because it reduces the stronghold of your position.

It is NOT illegal in the US for a company to ask for your SSN (even for purposes which is was not intended, i.e. "ID" and it is NOT illegal in the US for a company to refuse service if you refuse to give your SSN. This has been pointed out repeatedly, including the recitation of the actual clauses in other threads.

So everyone, stop using that arguement as it is false. Stick to the other arguments about how given the current plans, this entire fiasco will do absolutely NOTHING to prevent minors from standing on PG or M areas and camming into adult areas to look at and buy adult material or even engage in adult activites on non adult land in SL.

Unless SL outlaws ALL adult material or requires EVERY user to verify or actually puts in code to complately hide every prim of an adult parcel from non-verified avs, it is a compeltely pointless and divisive excersize on their part.

Even then minors will still get in, but hopefully at some point, once a system is in that actually /tries/ to work (unlike what we are being handed now) the blame will actually fall upon the minor or the parents where it belongs. If a 17 year old forges an ID good enough that any normal insoection of it can't reveal the fact that it is fake, the adult video rental store is certainly not responsible for renting prons to a minor and neither should SL or anyone in it be.

Where have you been hiding? Being responsible for our own actions, or those of our children went out of fashion at least 10 years ago.

Greetings Farallon,

You are correct to say that it is not illegal per say in the USA to give your SS# out. However, we both know that this was never the intended purpose. Unfortunately the good ole' USA never got around to making illegal but always advised that it was not to be used for identification purposes and that has not changed.
http://www.cpsr.org/issues/privacy/ssn-history#PrivacyAct

In most other countries, if not all, this is a practice which simply is not done.

Finally, Linden Lab has already supposedly verified thousands upon thousands of us. There is no need to verify again. I am quiet sure if they really enforce this new policy of age verification that they will lose more than they can imagine in the end.

Vryl Valkyrie

actually, I quite doubt it.

If they put in the system they say they want, what will happen is most people will not comply, and continue doing whatever they were doing anyway.

I seriously doubt any large exodus. It will be more like mass non-compliance.

If they make verification mandatory, then we may see the exodus.

I hope that is what happens I know I'm planning non-compliance...though I also tend to not visit adult areas...so my non-compliance will be moot.

If only people had the courage to do such things with, say, the US Gov't and our current state of over-taxation....*sighs*

The fact is that the Age Verification system as currently described by LL is just flawed on so many levels:

i) Many countries do not have a universal id, and where they do it is either strongly recommended or illegal to give this information to private companies (especially outside the country)

ii) id such as passport or driving license are no universal and there will be people who do not posses either of these.

iii) in many countries, the government databases of the above information are not available for commercial use, so the third party can't verify the information even if it was given

iv) if the parcel banning works like the current parcel banning, it will only ban below 200m (so won't prevent entry to skyboxes), and people can easily move their cameras into it

v) if the banning works like the latest blog suggests - i.e. the whole region is blocked if a parcel is marked adult, people who have no intention or need to age verify may be locked out of land they own, and the mainland is going to look very patchy to those not age verified (espeically aviators).

vi) and ultimately, as many have pointed out, the verification checks merely proof at best that the person you are claiming to be merely exists and says abosolutely nothing about who *you* are. Passports etc. only work as proof of identity since they have photographs (and these days biometrics) and are used with the owner present! The number alone is not sufficient. I suppose LL could sue you for making false claims, but they can already do that if you have ticked a "over 18" box and you aren't!

This Age Verification is breaking laws in my country. I beleive it is in many other countrys as well.

This is uncalled for this is not needed. Linden labs this is stupid and very un smart from business point. As you will push so many people who have been members of the second life community for years away. This will scare off any new people who are thinking of joining. when it ask for the photo copy of passport or driving card and country ID numbers. not only is this bad it is not legial.

You are asking for far more trouble be doing this and breaking many none american country laws. by imposing this on us.

Do not say its vonltary as it is truly is not. being confined to PG sim is forceing this and imposing this on us.

Credit card and the "Yes Im 18 years or older" button have been good enough for every other internet company site and online world this far..

You do not need to peer into our private RL lives.

You should listen to youe customer as we are the ones who support you linden labs and keep you getting your pay checks.

As if it was not for us costumers who you keep Sh**ting on every chance you get you would be jobless and second life would be none existant.

Do not impose this Age Verification crap on us.

I know in the US you are not supposed to give your SSN to anyone except the government. I was surprised when I lived there that shops asked for it. When I pulled them up on it all but one shop just asked me for a random number. The one shop said they wouldn't serve me as it was policy (despite they are breaking the law).

In Ireland it is illegal to ask me for my PPS number in order to do service. Only the government can request it or a transaction that is dealing with the government (eg. money off glasses from government).

I have only ever had one company (in the UK) request a photocopy of my driving license or passport in order to do a Credit card transaction. When I contacted the CC company about it they told me this was illegal as well and not to send them that information as it could be used as identify theft. I ended up not doing business with that company.

The fact you are charging my credit card is proof that I am over 18. It doesn't prove that I let a minor use the account (I don't) but I don't see how any of your new rules will either.

If the age verification comes in you will not be getting that documentation from me.

Well I will not be happy when I can't access land I own in a mature sim or a shop I rent in a mature sim, I feel I am being forced to do this and also PAY for it, we all see the flaws in this farce and Linden Labs should be ashamed of themselves turning a paedophile scandal into a money spinner.

Now they can't steal anymore cash off people who rated each other in another flawed system they resort to this. Yes I agree measures should be taken to avoid kids getting in but unfortunately if a kid wants in somewhere they will get in, you can make it harder for them sure but it's the few sick adults LL need to focus on instead of punishing and robbing the masses because while they are checking everyones ages and making a profit in the process what's stopping another couple of sleazy adults acting out sick fantasies and getting themselves in the media?

When the day comes that I can't access my land or shop are Linden labs going to reimburse me for the rent and tier fees for every day I can't access them? I very much doubt it.

i certainly can't see why documents like that would be irrelevant to a CC transaction, but it's not illegal..even though they could be used to commit identity crimes.

when opening a bank account in the UK thesedays, several documents are required due to recent regulatory changes designed to prevent money laundering. some of those documents are valid full passport and driving licence and photocopies absolutely will not do. you must provide originals. when opening an account over the internet, all banks will advise you to take these documents to your nearest branch where (in Halifax's case) they promise they won't even leave your sight. you can understand why they prefer this because it covers their backs if these documents are later used for identity crimes. but they will accept these documents through the post if you insist and there's nothing illegal about providing them. at worst, it's often just a silly thing to do because it can leave you so vulnerable.

nobody will be barred from mature sims if/when verification is introduced. you'll only be barred from parcels in mature sims if the owner has checked the 'adult content' option in the About > Land dialog.

So what's to stop someone from standing next to the flagged parcel and using their camera to see in?

nothing. as i understand it, x-rated content will have to be enclosed so as not to be visible from adjoining parcels (as is the case on mature parcels right now), but it'll still be rendered and susceptible to cam panning.

True and it is the same here. You need at least two proof of residence (bills addressed to you) and identification documents like Birth Cert/Passport/Gardai Cert/Driving License (normally more then one).

That I don't have a problem with because it is a bank. The issue I had was with a shop wanting this information. The CC company said they should not be asking for this information to use a credit card and while it is up to myself to supply it or not they said it would be better take your business elsewhere rather then risk identity theft.

/me wonders if anybody has actually contacted aristotle/integrity and asked about their requirements to verify age in the UK. Or whatever other country we're talking about.