New Content Provider's view of New Policy

To answer your question.......... i DO NOT CARE that gambling is outlawed.

You missed the point entierely.

The way the policy is written can be applied to so many thing beyond gambling. THAT is the point of my statements, NOT the fact gambling is now illeagal in SL. THAT i FULLY understand LL for.

so now i have questions for you..........Why is it, despite many different ways i have tried to explain my view, do you still seem to think i am against LL for making gambling no longer leagal?
Why do you not understand that anyone from LL could say almost anything is gambling and hide thier actions within the new policy as it is written ?
How can you , or anyone, possibly believe this CANT affect you?

Maybe i should have stated my views differently so they would be easier to understand, i tried to explain them in detail. I am not ill with you, but i do hope now you understand, this is not AGAINST LL for ending gambling, it IS against the broad wording of a policy that gives LL power to call many things gambling that are cleary not, or probly not intended ever to be considered as such. and as a proffessional, i do expect more from LL as i do pay them to be treated with more proffessionalism then this policy did.

Again, TY all for reading my posts...............HUGGS

Because I can read the policy and realize it's only a ban on gambling, not anything else? Which it seems you refuse to understand. *sighs*

Well, good luck to you and the others of the Chicken Little Brigade. LL banning gambling is a good thing for everyone in SL who isn't the owner of a gambling device. Hopefully you can overcome your fear at some point and see that.

Only if you consistantly ignore the whole "random number generation" bit of the ban.

Policy states Chance OR Random number generation............so chance does apply, but ty for assuming it is only random number generation, try reading the actual policy, ty

I did.

Note the rest of it too, why don't you? "rely on - to determine a winner". In this context, "chance" is just superfluous. It means the same thing. Your oft-repeated claims that it could apply to "virtually anything" fall flat when you try to cram them into the "determine a winner" stipulation otherwise, and falls even flatter when you consider that it has to "rely on" those conditions.

As far as I'm aware, the "randomness" of social behaviour isn't affected by the US government laws, and probably isn't affected by the LL policy decision either. I don't think you can just outlaw the Prisoner's Dilemma without major problems everywhere..

Ok Ill play the sky is falling game. Will this affect things? Sure. How much? None of us know. I do agree that the policy is badly written and has a broad brush. how about slingo games, bingo, DMC. Are these the things that all the casino haters want gone. Well they do fall under the new gambling rule. I really dont care if there is gambling here, and I really dont blame LL for having to enforce the gambling ban ( its not a casino ban). They are located in the US and have to follow US rules. But my questions for all those who seems to hate casinos so much, did you forget most have shops next to them that help pay for the land? With the closure of the casinos. these shops will close as well. Should they just be told oh well your screwed.. Move on.. Find another place to do business. Im sure most of them will, But some might not have the funds to find a new place. If landloards know that a glutten of renter that are looking for a new place, you dont think they would raise thier prices?. This rules does affect alot of people who dont own or run a casino. Evertyhing is connected, from the poeple who make the content, to the shop owners, the the people who visit. To say it's only about those hateful casino's and noone else is not looking at how things are dependant on each other. Im sure this will calm down over time and things will seem to get back to normal. No one here know what will happen. BOth side could be right or wrong.. Only time will tell

Actually, Monkeyboy, it would seem that as the casinos shut down, the availability of land is going up. As available supply goes up, prices go down, not up.

Better for everyone, well, everyone who isn't in the business of scamming fools out of their L$ with unregulated gambling devices.

Thats is very true for the people with the funds to by the land. Not the people who rent a shop and now have to relocate,

So all the casinos that don't ever use RN generators (IOW willfully and intentionally produce numbers explicetly crafted so the clients get shafted) are perfectly fine and in no danger of being removed from SL? WTF do you even call that?

Those still use random number generation - it's just weighted

Random number and/or chance.

Heh, I suppose if it ain't random at ALL, that the "patrons" of these establishments are simply being blatantly ripped off, it's not a violation of THIS part of the TOS. But, would be in violation of other parts, yes?

Hello........ Guess the points i made were in fact accurate!
I suggest all who have lost things of linden value in secondlife file lawsuits against linden labs for said losses since they have cleary stated now that they do have value.
I suggest that even if you dont charge to play a game, hence no wagering, be carefull cause its only LIKELY it is ok, still might be considered gambling under new post by Linden lab.
What a leagal precidence they have set with this new posting....... how can i be wagering something of value if i wager linden dollars < since they said have zero value> then i cant loose anything and therefore is not gambling. gambling invloves risk of loss of something of value, and therefore under LL own words, to pay a slot machine CANT be gambling cause i didnt risk anything of value.
and if it is value, fine, but be prepared LL for the Massive amounts of court time being sued for lost value by residents who have, do now and will loose this "value" of lindens.
Cant have your cake and eat it too, either they do have value or they do not have value, and you will be held accountable for which way < not in between > you finally decide to make your policy.
You arent dealing with school children, we are adults and proffessionals in society, We have complied with your rules fully as best we can, but now lindens have value and do not have value, cant be both, be clear and be prepared to back up your policy, because you will be held accountable for it.
Just another example of how Unproffessional we have all been treated with this Vague policy.
Oh and yes, now that land is way down in price , Traffic counts are way down in alot of very popular places, and people leaving SL taking thier stores, products and services with them, i guess it actually DOES AFFECT EVERYONE.
Got Shopping?............I used to!

FACTS:

1--Linden Labs is a company based in the United States of America

2--Too few people recognize Second Life as a "future of the internet" and instead treat it like a "game". Hell...the fact that the residents of SL itself are so split on the issue means that there's no way we could help Senators/Congressmen understand that SL is --NOT-- a game.

3--Linden Labs cannot be protected as an "ISP" (see #2), and is therefore subject to run SL pursuant to laws affecting all other companies in the US that run "games" or "programs".

4--The United States instituted recent law that makes online gambling illegal.

5--The Linden Labs policy reflects the MINIMUM required of them by LAW in the United States to comply without having their door beat down by the FBI and all of them being arrested and SL ceasing to exist.

Facts:
1) all my posting here is not to try and keep gambling Leagal
2) i fully understand why they made it illeagal
3) thier implimenting such a broadly written policy which has clearly as feared, had a tremendous affect on far more then gambling was 100% unproffesional, period.
4) not sure about you, but i pay to play and dont like being treated in such a way as this policy is doing.
5) I have only defined the many ways UNDER THE NEW POLICY, that things are, there posting of an update only adds to the grid confusion and does not clarify its intent.... now even if a game does not take in money or things of value it might still be construded as gambling? "
LIKELY" is such a vague word when considering so much effect on people grid wide.
This new update to the policy is just another example of how little forethought they are addressing this issue with.
6) how low will land go in price? how many MORE places will close down well beyond anything considered gambling? at what point, due to lack of income by LL from its player base does it throw in the towel and say oh well it was fun while it lasted?
7) Now that lindens have an implied value < again poorly written new policy > will they simply be sued out of business? i SMELL class action lawsuits on the horizon and all this is really sad and could have been implimented with good customer service in a way that ended gambling and maintained the grid stabilty economy, Frankly my 10 year old son could have thought this thru better.

Ami, I appreciate your taking the time to put your thoughts into type. Yes, the conversation does become content-intensive in places, but these are very complex points, worthy of lengthy analysis by anyone, like you, who is taking a *real-business* approach to how they conduct their trade in SL (and not just *roleplaying at running a business/runninng a society*, as the Linden team, and way too many others, btw, is wont to do...) , and unlikely to be fully resolved in any simplification-dependent manner.

In case my point has already been kicked to death, I apologize for stopping after halfway down the second page of posters...my fingers are burning to type!

Ami, here's the thing...look back through time...you CAN'T expect anything in the way of PR or policy from the Linden Lab Corporati that conforms to acceptable business standards, professional standards, or reasonable standards of inter-personal respect and behavior...IMHO.

1. Linden Lab is NOT being run by a group of people who have the abundance of previous chief-executive experience called for by a complex project of this scope...yes, they've all sat in boardrooms, but largely as contributors...not many examples there of experienced leaders...and take a look, at www.LindenLab.com, and tell me, how many do you see in the boardroom at Linden with ANY corporate experience in customer service, or with any experience outside virtuality...heh!

2. Linden Lab is an experiment! You, the prudent investor/business-person, don't take an un-tested product and dump it into development/production by an un-tested company exercising an un-tested, un-proven corporate philosophy/model, UNLESS you just want to see what will happen!!! We know that you can change up one, either the product or the process, and succeed, but sound money would never do both at the same time.

3. No single person at Linden Lab has the qualifications or experience to merge Public Relations with Customer Service. Unless their company website is woefully lagged, they are still trying to hire competent and qualified CS/R and PR directors for the company. Until a handfull of months ago, they had a former product-publicity rep from a packaged-game-software company wearing both those hats...they are still suffering the groundshock aftereffects of that near-fatal flaw in judgement.

No, Ami, it wasn't missed by anyone, trust me, this is just standard Linden Forum FanBoy strategy, to seize on a single word, in any valid discussion of LL's shortcomings, and turn the whole conversation 180 degrees around that word...



See my comment above, and don't stop making your point...please ignore the posters who pull this back into the "gambling good versus evil" obfuscation...




Backatya!

Much like the religious it's funny how people with a very large financial or emotional investment in something tend to reason without regard to logic or fact.

No matter how you dress it up (Game Show, whatever that means) if you require a payment to enter with the chance of not recovering at least your entry fee through the use of randomly selected winners, it's GAMBLING. If one wins or loses through a contest of skill or accuity that is a different animal. One could practice, get better work harder become good effect the outcome through the increase of ability.

sploders - randomly selects winners. Doesn't matter if everyone gets something, or only pays out to contestants and no cut for the owner. People have a chance to lose money (i.e. recieve back less than they put in) without any ability to effect the outcome.

Bingo (SLingo, etc.) - randomly selected balls or whatever. The marking them on your card is not skill. There is no appreciabl skill increase to be had at marking the card. Don't get me started on the Devil May Care Devil that RNDOMLY comes out to screw you up.

Lucky Chair - Didn't py anything in - NO RISK. Total legal.

My rule of thumb is as follows:

If one can enter the particular "game" and sit back and do nothing to increase there chances of winning and still win it is gambling. This, say, applys to poker. A much debated game that many feel is a skill based contest. Problem is players can sit back, never look at the cards dealt (sp?) to them and still win. There is nothing anyone can do to effect the outcome of a randomly dealt hand of a royal flush over garbage.

Now if you've staked your future on something that is illegal in the RL and have made money doing it in SL, consider yourself lucky and if you've contnued to risk your future by continuing to leave your profits in this risky behavior, consider yourself fool hardy.

I will not be opening the following businesses in SL:

- Cracked Software/Music/Movies Depot
- Child Porn - R - Us
- hiros' Emporium of U.S. National Secrets
- Hate - Speach - O - Rama
- Okida(sp?) Virtual Training University and Information Exchange

And why? Because it's illegal and if I did I would not be surprised if eventually LL would ban my ass.

And not because of my opinion of if these things should be illegal but because they are and I am putting myself and the people involved in SL wth me (which I consider evryone) at risk. If I disagree with the laws I will be much more effective at changing them in RL then in SL. A little warning would have been nice I must admit considering the length of time they let thing continue prior to the announcement
.
Finally, if this is the level of commitment you have for you busines that you would run through a bunch of half baked assumptions and decide it's all doomed, well maybe your better off getting out now. Almost all your points and assumptions in the original post, IMHO, were comepletely off base. But se la vie....

Fan, Fan, Fan...sorry, either that, or you may have started reading in the middle of the thread...the OP criticism is about what CAN occur when people who DON'T have the managerial experience or the linguistic know-how to write or implement policies try to do so, and only uses the hot-button issue as a current example, geez!...go back and read, and try to deny the correctness of Linden's failure (again) to get boardroom stuff relevant and effective...

Spoken by a true non-Bingo player. Explain to me why I could win 3-lines more than anybody else?

OH YEAH - the game was rigged so that I would. And Blood21, too - I won that to an almost embarassing degree because - well, Blood21 games were always rigged to favor Cocoanut Koala! (Bet you didn't know that! )

And Slingo, yeah - well all know that you don't even need a brain to play that. A sea slug can win that, right?

Not that it matters. You're not the only one who thinks there is no skill in these games. Plus, the world has had some kind of insane notion about card games and other games involving numbers, thinking those require no skill, AND are immoral, for at least since my grandmother's day. She wouldn't let cards get in the HOUSE even.

coco