Gambling? What?

And in many States here you can visit the Casino as well. The brothel is a different story, I'll grant you.

If you can put money in and you can take money out it is illegal. The use of "credits" is an attempt to skirt the law and will fall apart with the first court case addressing it. Everyone is looking for someway around this but the simple fact is if it looks like online gambling you are likely to find yourself facing legal action. Ultimately the decision on what is and is not illegal online gambling will reside in the courts and if someone is making any money from it and the government can't get their hands on the taxes they feel they are due you are likely to find yourself making your case in court against the legal power of a government.

Is this speculation or can you point to any statement from Linden Lab that explicitly states this? The timing of the new policy coinciding with the deadline (unmet) to issue the UIGEA regulations tends to support the theory that the driving force behind the policy is the UIGEA and the possibility of having funding through US banks to Linden Lab blocked. Further although Linden Lab continues to be obtuse and opaque about why it adopted the policy, all of its prior public statements before the policy were explicitly in response to the UIGEA.

They are backed by and distributed by banks. That is exactly what I am refering to. And by the way, even if the Lindex doesn't buy lindens from you it facilitates the transaction. Sounds a little like a credit card transaction. Buyer, seller, entity in the middle to facilitate transaction. Hmm. This is wht explains the TOS and Blog statement misalignment. LL made a valliant attempt at abstracting away the exchange of (what we all know to be) monetary instruments from itself. Unfortunately, no one that matters is buying it. (i.e. the US Government) Just like no one is buying the purchasing of tokens in online gambling sites and that won't be here for long either.

In addition, this whole notion of moving LL to a different country is also bunk. Every U.S. citizen is bound by U.S. law no matter where they happen to be in the world. You go to the Phillipines to sleep with little boys, violation of U.S. law. You go to Columbia and participate in the distribution of controlled substances, violation of U.S. law. Open an offshore online gambling site, in violation of U.S. law. Big enough to hit the federal authority's radar at any of the aforementioned acts, your ass is grass.

In my estimation, LL would have to complete divest in LL and sell to an overseas company and transfer all assets to said buyer. Then the only problem they will have is the exact same one when it comes to U.S. credit cards and U.S. in-world casino owners and U.S. in-world gamblers. So what you are saying is that LL should be good guys and take the hit for all of our continued enjoyment and still we'd be up shit creek. Better ope your illegal behavior is taking place in a country that will fight the extradition for you, therwise, your ass is grass.

The point I've been getting at is that LL is beseiged on all sides, no matter how you look at it, and the survival of LL means the survival of SL wich means the survival of many (but not all unfortunately) of us.

and even if LL set up offshore and allowed gambling, the american cc companies would have no choice but to blacklist them. and the american cc companies are pretty much the entire cc industry.

the interesting thing is that for all the fear of brothels, the vast majority of tourists leave oz without ever realising they even exist. here its a complete non issue. even the big 'vegas style' casinos are a non issue. pokie venues are another story though. they've nearly killed live music in melbourne and a disproportionate number of pensioners piss their money away every other week

No, you're not seeing the bigger picture. If the credit card companies decide SL is a "gambling site," they can refuse to issue payments ... in fact they'd be legally required to refuse to issue payments.

That would mean NO PAYMENTS of any sort. No premium membership fees. No tier payments. Nothing. The fact that the payments would not be for gambling wouldn't matter.

Linden Lab pretty much came out and said as much in their latest blog post clarifying their reasons. They want (and completely reasonably) to continue to be able to get paid through the credit card companies.

Otherwise they go out of business and kill it for all of us.

EDIT: And by the way, this is why it's silly to ponder "what is next to be banned," and especially prostitution. (People who say "Prostitution is illegal in RL, it'll be the next thing banned from SL." I've heard similar things said about SL violence, drug use and even tobacco smoking.

Gambling was not banned in SL because it's illegal in RL (it's not) ... it was banned in SL because the law in question pertains specifically to ONLINE gambling and payments for it.

actually the law exempts state lotteries(since they make lots of tax revenue for states), and horse racing(since rich people love their horsies(spelling on purpose))

As will PayPal.

The demonstration may have begun as a response to LL's ban on gaming, but it has come to represent much more than that in my opinion.

The ban on gaming created a devastating ripple effect on SL's economy, affecting every single industry from land prices to fashion sales. It's not just about bringing gaming back, its about whether or SL will continue to exist for any of us.

Land prices are less than half their value prior to the ban. I've heard so many insist this is the best thing to happen, but those values are an integral part of SL's economy. You may be able to afford cheap land at this very moment, but it will serve no purpose if SL dies.

The primary problem with the ban is that LL is allowing governmental regulations to get a foot in the door. This has far reaching implications which are, in my mind, much more serious. It opens the door to regulation of the internet. There isn't a government in the world who isn't chomping at the bit to accomplish that feat because of its incredible revenue potential.

Yes LL does have liability because of the UIGEA and most people believe that is why the ban was implemented. It is a little more complicated than that though. This is a virtual world and the things in it exist in cyberspace. It is only by virtue of the grid staying open that any of it is possible. Once the plug is pulled, SL and everything in it disappears, including EVERYTHING you obtained with real currency, whether it be land or lindens or whatever. And if it disappears you have no recourse whatsoever.

LL's liability is not tied to any RL laws because they don't apply to virtual reality. Not yet anyway. Their liability is the result of a single action on their part - the launch of the LindeX whereby they themselves encourage and facilitate the exchange of $L for USD.

If they didn't do that one thing, their liability would be zero and RL law simply would not apply to SL. There will always be activities conducted here in which individual players may have liability from their local laws such as pornography or failing to pay sales taxes, and yes gambling too among others, but individual player liability doesn't challenge the existence of the game itself or pose any danger to SL's economy.

Cue the *gasps* of all those who fear losing the ability to exchange their $L for USD.

Simple fact is that it would still be traded. SL got along fine without the LindeX before it came into existence and $L was traded for real currency quite well. There are many outlets already available and any number of players in-game willing to make trades via Paypal or Ebay. There are also third parties who regularly trade in game items, not just SL but many other games as well. They aren't prolific in SL now because it simply isn't lucrative to compete with the LindeX (LL owns the LindeX.) If the LindeX didn't exist, then third party trading would become lucrative again. It would be highly competitive.

Gaming or gambling in SL, whichever you prefer to call it, is not the only industry which stands to lose in SL because of the liability LL has from owning the LindeX. The intrusion of RL laws in a virtual reality game is a loss to everyone, because then you suddenly become subject to RL regulation no matter what you do. If you think that's a plus, then in my mind you are part of the problem because you support that philosophy.

Cue the *huffing* of the whiners who demand regulation in SL because they have been ripped off by Ginko, or that builder, or that fashion designer, or that scriptor, or that shoe shop owner, or that land seller, or that escort, or that casino owner, or any number of ripoff artists that exist both in RL and virtual worlds. We could even argue that LL has ripped off people left and right because they aren't well known for treating their customer base with anything resembling respect. (Please note, I do believe individual Lindens do their damnedest to help us - but they are ham-strung by company policy)

The fact that SL is an extension of the internet is lost on many. You have to use common sense here as you would anywhere else and unfortunately the learning curve for that is just as high as the game itself.

Basically LL's philosophy, which I agree with wholeheartedly, is to not interfere and allow us to govern ourselves. Self-governing is already done in SL in lots of ways, albeit on a very small scale. We have yet to reach a point of being able to do it on a large scale, but then the game doesn't really facilitate that, as it's difficult to disseminate information and large gatherings are fairly impossible.

We do have a philosophy as a consumer base though at least I think most of us do. We are all here for a reason. It isn't a matter of whether it's a good or bad reason, just whether we can reasonably expect to remain here based on it.

That said, it goes without saying we all have some interest in preserving the game. I think we have a responsibility to take some kind of action if we see its existence is in danger. That is my reason for protest and demonstration. It should be yours as well if you choose to become involved. Some of you don't care to, but those who do should not be subjected to ridicule or castigation.

Protests about the stability of the grid as opposed to introducing new features is a prime example of how most of us demonstrate. We want the game to work like it should. This protest (which LL responds to btw) makes the game better for all, thus ensuring we don't evacuate in droves, and it ultimately preserves the game.

I see the gaming protest as serving the same purpose because of the fear the economical fallout from the ban will result in the death of SL. You can make fun and flame all you want about "the sky is falling" but the numbers are there to support that fear. Yes, LL owns the game and can make any decision they want concerning it, but that doesn't absolve you or me of any responsibility to do or say what we can to help preserve both LL and the game. My suggestion to that end is to call for LL to ditch the LindeX. I'm not anyone special and they won't listen to me. But if I can help enough other people to understand why, they may join in and demonstrate too or perhaps offer an even better solution to what I see is a very real danger to the game. As individuals, little can be accomplished. But as a group we have considerable power to effect change as long as we are reasonable.

Although it's really convenient to buy or sell $L through the LindeX, I believe it's a mistake to have it and its existence may ultimately be the reason SL dies. LL's ownership of the LindeX gives them liability because THEY are giving $L value. If someone else was doing it, it wouldn't affect SL.

LL assumes much more liability by virtue of the LindeX, than just being subject to US Federal gaming laws. If USD wasn't involved, the gambling laws wouldn't apply to them at all. BUT . . .

It is quite possible the whole concept of LL issuing $L is completely illegal itself. Under US Federal Securities law, it could be construed as issuing an unregistered security. Because the $L is traded for USD on the LindeX, are they in fact issuing securities for USD? If so, that IS DEFINITELY illegal under federal securities law - virtual or not. Technically securities, for all intents and purposes, are virtual anyway because you just don't see actual stock certificates anymore. $L is no different because if you buy $L, basically you are hoping someone will pay more for it, or that you can exchange it for something with value, so it appears they are acting like a company issuing stock, i.e. selling virtual securities. ALL BECAUSE THEY OWN THE LINDEX.

If this is the case, it stands to reason, LL banned gaming in SL because they fear that they are facilitating an online gaming operation and can't hide behind the "we are nothing but a chat room really" argument. Not to mention they are going directly against their own TOS in which they state $L has no value. LL cannot legally sell $L and maintain an exchange, virtual or not, in their own corporation, which may be exactly why they have made a point they are only acting as agent, but in fact they are not (because they issue more $L).

An investigation by the US Department of Justice or the Attorneys General would most likely result in closure of the grid long before the issue was decided in a court action.

It doesn't really make sense to me that LL would roll over as the result of the UIGEA and create such economic hardship for themselves as well as their customer base in-world. Yes, if the economy in SL suffers, so does LL. The UIGEA in its current form has no teeth really and LL could easily position themselves for protection from it. The question is why wouldn't they want to?


I invite anyone to read the securities laws themselves here:
http://www.sec.gov.

I hope to invite discussion as well as pertinent comment, not flames.
Discussion and sharing information with others is important. My friend Ramo told me about the unregistered securities issue, and after reading the law myself I agree.

There are links to the UIGEA as well as the Barney Frank bill being introduced this year in a couple of other posts found here:
post #s 1 and 32,
/341/61/200636/6.html

Many other comments in that thread include interesting links as well.

Most assume that internet gambling is illegal, but there is no federal law, as yet anyway, that outlaws it. The UIGEA just makes it illegal to fund it with USD. The Barney Frank bill intends to correct that and place additional restrictions on the gaming industry. If you do even a little reading on these issues, it's a real eye-opener on how deceptive the politicians are at getting laws passed and how the government is taking steps towards regulating the internet.

People pay moeny for bottled water. If you want a product someone is selling, you pay their price.



LL doesn't. Residents do. LL never buys back L$. You sell your L$ on the Lindex and the USD profit goes into your LL account. LL will send you the USD from there (minus transaction fees) at your request. (ie "cashing out"

*sighs and reads the last post above and points to the sky as it still isn't falling though it is raining trolls*
~Jessy

I understand the confusion about The Government making Illegal certain types of Gambling in certain Venues while Lottery tickets, and Scratch tickets and casinos exist all over the Place, but the thing to remember is that every game you see that IS in operation (I beleive with the exception of the casino's on the Indian reserves) is Licenced, and regulated by the state, and Must meet a stringent series of requirements before they are allowed to operate INCLUDING How the funds generated by the operators of these games may be disposed of. (Many Jurisdictions require a signifigant percentage of the funds generated be donated to Charities and/or social programs) Not a single One of those Games is Unlicenced, and not a single one operates Purely for the Enrichment of the Operator.

Now before you even THINK of How the Government can Do something that the Government has Made Illegal,, ask the question out loud in front of a mirror a few times and try to keep a streight face.
Gambling is Not Illeagal really, what IS Illeagal is UNREGULATED Gambling. and when you Take off the Blinkers and REALLY look at it, you can Understand Easily why Regulation of gambling was, and remains Necesary, and if i have to give you just One example, How about; It Guarantees (Or does it's best to) That the Slot machine/Roulette wheel/Crap game dice/Black jack dealers shoe are All Operating fairly, and have Not been rigged to Cheat the gambler (More than the Real odds do). That's only the most basic reason.
Net gambling was completely Unregulated. There was no way to guarantee that everyone playing was doing so honestly and a LOT of people were being cheated.

To take the example of the Street where prostitution was carrying on;
In Navada Prostitution Is legal, But ladies, if you start trying to sell your *sses on the street they will lock you up faster than you can say "half and half". It's Legal, But ONLY in the state Licenced brothels. Again, Legal, But Regulated.

Angel.

Just to add to Angel's well written post, Indian Casino's are regulated by the States in a sense that they can only operate in States that have approved Casino Gambling, and they are overseen by the FBI and The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (IGRA). Also Prostitution is legal in certain counties in Nevada, but not in Clark County (Las Vegas) as is sometimes poularly believed.

have you noticed that last two controversies that created multiple threads on the subject per day started with the letter G?

whoa , not really sure what this sermon has to do with my post.

Don't take it personally. It's being posted everywhere.

Gee, you're right!

/me read that in it, too.. A lot of people seemed to have missed it, tho.

That's cause they only post things once, not like some people......

Who me? lol

One further point I'd like to make is that when things get bad, they tend

to snowball. Because of US Federal Securities laws, we may see some "qui

tam" litigation as the result. This would certainly bring on a US DOJ

investigation and possibly tie up any resources LL might have to defend

itself.

Qui tam lawsuits are quite unique. They are basically filed by

individuals on behalf of the government. They are also sometimes called

"whistleblower" lawsuits.

This type of lawsuit is particularly attractive in our litigious and

greedy times because the government is required to do all the work

basically and the person filing the suit is entitled to 15-30 percent of

the total recovery. Additionally they receive protection from

retaliation.

In 2005 alone, a record $3.1 billion was reclaimed from corrupt

businesses from qui tam actions. My math sucks, but isn't 15% of 3.1

billion something like 450 million. That's quite an incentive.


"In qui tam provisions the government gives private citizens the right

and the financial incentive to retain a private lawyer to file a lawsuit

to act in the place of law enforcement."


Lawyers will take these on in a heartbeat without even a consultation

fee. It would not surprise me to learn that one has already been filed,

but I seriously doubt anyone on this forum would bother since the posts

aren't read or taken seriously to begin with.


Just my two cents.



You can read more about these here.
http://www.whistleblowerfirm.com/faq.html#1

*moves*

True but moreso the fact they can't get their cut of the pie because most of it is run offshore.

ok... just my few cents to this.

"Regulateing" gambeling in RL is easy, sencible, and to a point.. any contries right.

Regulateing Gambeling in a GAME is stupid, nearly imposible, and is basicaly a big waist of time and resorces to be honest. Ok.. so LL now considers everything from Slot-machines to Exploders (gods forbid i get addicted to a exploder and throw away all my RL money just for the chance to play a sploder one more time) Illegal and as such worth of banning and whatnot of any account seen to own and run one. And do they 'honestly' think makeing it 'illegal' to have something as simple as a sploder in a sim is going to change anything? Hell theyve given us VOICE now... you dont NEED to have an actual object in the game world to do this stuff... you can simply do it on voice now... you can play bingo on voice.. you can play random number games on voice. All it takes is for 1 persone that everyone playing trusts to be in controle of the 'game'.. and vuala... you have games of chance again.

If LL is going to be forced by the Government to stamp out ALL games of chance in SL then i think the USA Government (which im at this moment sad to say i live withen) Needs to go to all those other companies like SOE (which runs Everquest, a game i can HONSTLY say has alot of people running random number games of chance withen the game) and all other companies running a MMO an do the same. In fact Every single Online MMO game i know of that has any type of economy in it (Daoc, EQ, EVE online, FFXI online, RF Online... SL.... ALL of the online games) Have some sort of gambeling in them.. No government in any shape, or form, is going to be able to stop it. So why the heck are they so insistant?...

Im pretty sure shutting down the main types of 'gambeling' like the slot-machines, the poker games and things like that in SL is a 'step' thats worth takeing to apease the hard-core, voter counting, bean-bags in government offices happy. But something as simple as Bingo.. or Exploders?.. common... thats being more childish than any of us PLAYING the game will ever be. And how mutch you want to bet not one single persone behind the big 'push' to put a end to ALL forms of 'chance' in SL be stamped out even play SL? or EQ... or DAOC.. or FFXI... or... well the list goes on and on, and im sure you get my point.

Anyway... i guess i'll wait and see just how bad a hit the 'econimy' of SL takes due to this... Might just start calling Second life "First Life in a box" now... istead.. As that is aparently what its going to be turning into soon... if not later on down the road.