Gambling? What?

Okay, as most users in Second Life, I have a few questions for Linden Labs....

If the Linden has no real money value, why do we pay real money for them, and why will Linden Labs buy them with real money back from us?

If this new gambling policy applies to all games of chance etc, that involve payout...why does every state in the US say it is legal to buy little scratch off tickets, pick numbers, or have a computer pick random numbers for a chance at winning the powerball????? Why can I, legally, go to a VFW or American Legion and pull tips or play bingo to win money???

I don't think the Lindens have any idea what is considered gambling in the US vs. gambling in this game. Were it I on the Linden Labs staff, I would simply use common sense, and say okay, this is still legal because they still do this in every single state....duh

As always, confusion....bad service....no connections....losing items....can't rez....walk around looking like a freak because my body, hair and clothes won't load all the way....

C'mon Linden fix this darn game already.

powerball and bingo halls are legal in the us because they are watched over the reason they can NOT be in sl or on websites is because they can NOT be wactched over

that is where alot of people are getting confused

gambling in the u.s. is not illegal its gambling online that is illegal because then gambling commisions can not watch it and scrutinize it and make sure its not rigged

1) Scratch cards are scratch cards.
2) LL might have very different views to what the reality is re online gaming. Yawn. Here I go again. Gambling laws define what should or should not be done, not people who happen to use Second Life. Don't like US Gaming Laws? Great. Lobby for changes ... the company I work for RL would simply LOVE the US market to become legal.
3) Meh. MEH. If you REALLY want to know about it then go look it up on the internet. Different laws apply State to State and COMPLETELY different laws apply to virtual as opposed to bricks and mortar.

Dunno. Why would some people pay a minor fortune for Spiderman no. 1, first print, mint condition? And why would an owner of such a treasure accept little slips of paper instead of some good ol' bar of gold?




Kacy, it is not a matter of RL gaming but ONLINE gambling that has been ruled out. There is a difference, and it is not a matter of common sense but of consulting lawyers.

YAY

Thank you. I've been beating my head against a brick wall in so many threads about this very fact

Just one point of contention... Linden Lab does not buy back L$. They happily sell them to us for real money but they will not buy them back. When you sell L$ on the LindEx, you are selling them to other users, not LL.

-Stephanie

Yes, there is even some little note about you might not get all of your money at the same time (sell your lindens at the same time I mean).

As have I. It's not about any US government conspiracy to strip people of freedoms, or some Moral issue. It's about the Governmnet not getting it's share. Even if Congress were to allow internet gambling tomorrow, it would still be complicated as gambling is regulated by each state individually, and in states where gambling is allowed even individual cities have a say in what goes on. And they all will be looking for their cut. So the Feds say it's Ok, Governor Ahnold says it's OK, becuase LL's Business address is in San Francisco, they City Council could have a say in the matter, and even if they all signed off on it, a player in a state where gambling is prohibited, would probably still be out of luck.

They wont.

And there in lies the important distinction.

False.

When you sell L$, are you worried about who you're selling them *to*, or that they might not pay you? No, you're not. You know the money will be coming from LL.

Linden wants you to *think* they aren't buying the L$ from you. However, *they* are the ones that put the money in your account and take the L$ away from you. What is actually happening is that LL keeps a database of client limit buy orders. When someone comes along to do a market sell, LL will buy from them, and immediately sell the L$ taken into one of the waiting orders in the book.

This is exactly how a brokerage works. You're only dealing with the brokerage. They're the only one you need to be worried about not paying you. They may be matching your sell order against a buy order from another client to hedge away their exposure and make a tidy profit, but that's none of your concern. Selling on LindeX is exactly the same idea.

Considering how the LindenX got its start, Id have to say Ricky is an authority on this.

--------------------------------------------

Linden Lab brokers the Buying and Selling of Lindens between Residents.

They also Sell a controlled ammount of Lindens they create out of thin air, through Supply Linden. This is to help keep the Lindens value fairly constant.

Which Is Interesting .. if the Linden didnt have a value, why care what the exchange rate is?

Man i wish i could create Lindens like that.

That would be awesome

The United States government is a federal system, in which the individual states are largely allowed to govern themselves, with only limited governing ability by the federal government as explicitly allowed in the U.S. Constitution. One of the bases of power for the federal government that is carved out by the U.S. Constitution is the regulation of interstate commerce. That's why the F.B.I. gets involved in internet gambling (which, unless a lot of precautions were taken in specific cases, allows gambling transactions across state lines), while it has no authority over a state lottery.

That is the difference. When you buy your state lottery ticket, you are purchasing something sanctioned by that state, with the seller of the ticket in that state, the buyer in that state, the money changing hands within that state, and any resulting taxes staying within that state.

And as political trivia, states love their state lotteries and hate interstate gambling precisely because, with the former, they can control how the transactions are taxed, while with the latter they cannot.

While Linden Labs seems to have poorly crafted its wagering policy, I don't think they have over-estimated the real legal hassles that prompted them to create the wagering policy in the first place.

P.S. The law, for better or worse, has no relation to common sense. Visit a law library one afternoon, take note the endless, thick volumes filling the shelves, and then try finding a page of common sense anywhere inside them.

Though Linden Labs may be making the transfers, that does not mean that they they are taking ownership of the Lindens transfered, nor are they using money that belongs to them to buy the Lindens. Their duties to the parties are as a fiduciary, not as buyer or seller. Their duty to either party is defined by their contract with either party, which is always going to be the Terms of Service. As a practical matter, the actual buyer and actual seller may not care who the other is. As a legal matter, if an issue of liability arises, you start with the contractual obligations between the parties involved.

Um no. FBI gets involved in internet gambling because it is ILLEGAL. Has zip to do with interstate commerce.
They don't get involved in RL because it varies from state to state.

In the US you can go to a VFW for Bingo or a QuikieMart and buy lottery tickets but you cannot buy or play them online. The key word is ONLINE. I've never seen so many people being so dense about what is actually very clear.

ONLINE GAMBLING IS NOT LEGAL IN THE US.

And as to the arguements over the "value" of L$. You can use a coupon to cover a portion of your purchase in a store thereby receiving monetary "value" for it but don't try paying your taxes with them.

that may have been the intent, but its certainly not the reality. first things to come to mind are decriminalisation of certain drugs and the 55mph speed limit. in both cases the federal government has bullied the state governments into submission by threatening to withhold funding for related projects.



this discussion of whether LL 'really' buy lindens is semantics.
and i do not believe 'internet gambling' is technically illegal either.

Valid points. However, Supreme Court precedent since 1937 has opened a hole in the Commerce Clause that has allowed massive federal power grabs since. Though ultimately I would agree that the federal government operates with far more power than constitutionally allowed under the auspices of the Commerce Clause, I don't expect Linden Labs to pay their lawyers a ton of money in the Quixotic quest to lose yet another challenge to the federal government's Commerce Clause powers.

Whether federal regulation of internet gambling is right or wrong, it's hard to fault Linden Labs for choosing to avoid a tangle with the F.B.I. over this issue.



Edit: Which comes around to the point that, if you want to be able to gamble online, you need to voice your concerns to your Congressional representatives and not to Linden Labs. Linden Labs's wagering policy may be way overbroad and cover things that aren't illegal. However, the individuals who own Linden Labs would probably rather risk anger over banning Sploders than risking sitting around in prison waiting for trial.

This is questionable. It's the way you pay for gambling that has been made illegal. Hence why some poker sites allow US players to buy credits to then use those credits to gamble. Which is how LL probably thought they were outside the law for a while, but now they think they are on shaky ground they have rightly pulled the plug.

All the people (most non-lawers I imagine) that have been finding all these loop holes and exceptions that they believe LL should be seizing upon don't get how the Justice system works.

It is not about the loophole or exception, it's about the governmental dept (be it the FBI, JD, or whatever) that has the power and inclination to move against a company or individual and that company or individual's willingness or ability to fight the good fight.

This online gambling thing is a huge issue to the U.S. government , for whatever reason, and it has displayed an obvious willingness to go all out in this area. Does anyone out there actually think that LL has the where withall to defend itself against such an attack (be they right or wrong) and survive in any meaningful way. I suggest not.

My final point would be to suggest that LL is not even primarily worried about the Federal Government, but more so, about the credit card companies. The anti online gambling laws are actally anti credit card companies servicing online gambling sites laws. If the credit card companies become spooked and decide it is too risky to work with LL then where does the revenue come from? LL goes down over night and there is no Supreme Court of Visa or Mastercharge. It's just game over!!!

Agreed. LL just can't take the risk over this. I wish they'd implemented the ban better, Robin Linden told me she wishes they could have given notice. However for the greater good, they had to act swiftly once they realised they were on shaky ground. Fighting over this would have created adverse publicity for LL and as you point out, the card companies may well have stopped authorising payments full stop.

I have likened this whole situation to a situation we had on a street near where I lived in downtown L.A..

This street had, for one reason or another, become known as a good place to pick up prostitutes. (such a nice place to live, having to step over the previous nights used condoms at your buildings front door) So more and more girls and there pimps started hanging out. This went on for a good two years without any attention from the police. It was like a married man's lookin for a blow job paradise.

Now did anyone involved in this paradise ever think that suddenly prostitution was suddenly legal. Hell no, what everyone knew was that they had this moment in time that the stars were aligned for them and they were gettig away with murder (figment of speach they were actually gettig away with prostituion and pandering).

So, on that fateful night when the police desended upon the street busting everyone in site do you think anyone was bitching about how it was unfair that this was happening? WELL, OF COURSE!!!! If I was i cufs I'd be crying too, but the next day I would relize I had it pretty good for while but I was bucking the system and lucky to have gotten what I had gotten.

land of the free yeah?
here in aus we just visit the casino and visit the brothel and dont have to worry about police.

Does LL have a trust account in which client funds are held? Doubtful.

If I buy through LindeX, who charges my credit card? Linden Lab.
Who transfers L$ into my account? Linden Lab.

Conversely, if I sell through Lindex, who takes the L$ out of my account? Linden Lab.
Who do I get my cash from? Linden Lab.

As with any brokerage, the price Linden is willing to pay me for my L$ is dependent on the orders they have in their book. However, make no mistake that Linden is the general counterparty to all trandes that pass through their system.

Gambling is not illegal in the US. Online gambling is not illegal in the US.

There are two relevent things that are illegal in the US. It is illegal to use a bank to transfer money to an online gambling business. But, if you use money that you made in world to gamble with in SL, you are not violating any US law.

Unless you are a legal minor. In which case, gambling of any sort is illegal. Not just in the US, but almost everywhere.

Gambling was banned on SL because SL cannot prevent minors from gambling by any other means.