Linden Lab is Correct to Ban Sexual Age-Play

Personal Opinion of Vryl Valkyrie:

Let us not get drawn into some deep cultural philosophical discussion about what is accepted in certain types of culture, etc in the world. SL for the most part represents the Western Civilization culture and that includes most of Europe, Australia and other parts of the world.

Sexual age-play cannot be compared to something which is merely taboo because it involves sexual fantasies about children. Children must be protected at all costs.

Anything representative of sex with children harms them directly/indirectly whether that is the intention or not. It should not be tolerated. It leads to more than Role Play. It becomes an addiction, a forbidden sickness of the mind.

Often the person who plays the part child is reliving being abused as a child. The person who plays the part of the adult is either re-enacting an abuser or has desires to abuse children himself. Perhaps he/she would not. Then again perhaps he/she would because virtual fantasy would not be enough to satisfy their demented needs. It is akin to a drug and as with any drug, the junkie only wants more.

Let us not water down the ugly reality of adults who want to role play having sex with children in the virtual world or the “matrix” as I often prefer to call it. The visual stimulates the mind into a simulation of reality which can often be confusing. Digital self projection is powerful and should not be underestimated.

People who engage in such twisted activities can and often do take screen shots, perhaps even turning it into a form of pedophile art or digital images being sold legally. Their logic is technically it is not children who are actually involved in the photos, therefore it is harmless. It is far from harmless. It is a representation of child pornography therefore contributes to it.

One of the real dangers in sexual age-play is that those who participate feed on a lust which will never be satisfied. It will never be enough in the end.

It is impossible to stamp it all out. The sickness will always be here. However, we can do our part in whatever way that we are able. That may mean something as simple as posting one's views in a forum on the Internet.

Final note: Don't enable the junkie by helping to supply his/her drug because then you become a part of the problem.


Edit: For the record, I oppose the new proposition of Linden Lab for a new age verification identification process. For more on my views on that different subject: /142/73/183234/1.html
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I don't have an argument for age play.

I think its disgusting and should be removed, banned. and the people that are caught taking part, reported to the correct authorities.

I do have a major problem with the method the Lindens are trying to force apon me, as I have absolutly no confidence in the security of my personal details.

I simply with not take part in whats been proposed



Edit when I put my ideas up I had not seen this thread and its link.

Further edit having read the link it offers nothing new and a method Lindenlabs seem to have allready discounted.

Thanks for your response Ceejay,

The reality is that Linden Lab has already verified thousands of customers via Credit Card and other means. From a legal perspective, I do not see how it is possible for Linden Lab to ask these same customers who have been here years, months, etc to be re-verified once they were already verified and have been paying with their credit or paypal account since the time of verification or once becoming a premium user.

However, this thread is not about the new age verification identification process. This thread is about Sexual Age-Play in virtual reality. If do not mind, let us please stay on subject. Thank you. *smiles*

Vryl Valkyrie

For the same reason I believe that all violence should be removed from TV and movies. From now on Hollywood should only make films about cute little kittens.

It would also be good if we somehow outlawed people from being mean on SL because it just leads to meanness IRL. Perhaps a personality verification to go with the new age verification?

I'm of the opinion that unless something is illegal it shouldn't be completely banned. However, given the fact that age-play (and technically any avatar/drawing/image) involving a sexual or "obscene" depiction of a child (regardless of who is controlling the avatar) is of dubious legality in the US, such things should be avoided by people that practice age-play until there's some definitive proof that what's going on isn't illegal.

If the films with violence involved sex with children, then they should be removed. But let us not be coy here and play time wasting games with words when we all should be intelligent enough to know what this issue is about. Nothing can be compared to adults having sex in a virtual world where image and visualition is powerful whilst pretending to having sex with a child in order to feed some cancerous need of the broken mind.

Vryl Valkyrie

I do not see any valid defense for sexual ageplay. All the defenses I have seen so far have been first amendment arguments taken to a ridiculous extreme. Even if we were only talking about the United States, which we are not, the Constitution does not protect all forms of speech. No one is permitted to shout fire in a crowded theater because this form of speech can be reasonably expected to result in harm to the patrons of the theater. Pedophiles feed their addiction by viewing child porn until they reach the point where their fantasies are not enough and they offend against a real child. By giving them an arena to feed their sick fantasies, sexual ageplay in SL is the equivalent of a shout of fire in a theater crowded with children.

Some people have suggested that victims of child abuse use such roleplay as a form of therapy. As a victim myself, I think possibly there is a valid argument for that. However, without a qualified therapist present, in my non-professional opinion this kind of attempt at self-help could easily backfire and do far more harm than good, by bringing up issues that the person isn't ready to deal with. There is a suggestion that LL is going to open source the server technology. If and when they do, such therapy should be confined to a private grid with therapists present and in control of the sim, in order to make absolutely sure the patient is safe and that real pedophiles are kept out. I cannot imagine that any survivor of child rape would want some pervert to get a sick thrill from their therapy session.

Zero tolerance is LL's policy and I support it 100%. I believe that nearly all of SL except for a vocal minority agrees with me. The only argument that most people except for a loud minority are making is how to implement it, not whether.

Evidence? I think some people are feeding their addiction to feeling self righteous with these threads.

@ Elanthius

Just *one* study, for *starters,* that came up in a quick Google search: The Criminal Histories and Later Offending of Child Pornography Offenders by Michael C. Seto and Angela W. Eke. This study followed people convicted of child pornography offenses and found that 4% committed a new contact sexual offense. Repeat, contact, not pornography. If that doesn't support my argument I don't know what does.

The clinical evidence is out there. I'm sure if you keep demanding documentation other people will find additional cites for you. Personally, I'm tired of arguing that the clear sky is blue when reasonable people can go outside on a sunny day and use their common sense to figure it out for themselves.

I agree Kathryn,

These people who defend sexual age-play are either trolls and they feed off of the drama and negativity or they sincerely believe it is acceptable to play out fantasies of having sex with children and that is sick beyond words.

Furthermore, as I have already stated, often these types of acted out sexual age-play lead to virtual child pornagraphy, child abuse, etc.

Zero tolerance. Protect the children from the adults who want to have sex with them.


Vryl Valkyrie


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolicon#Legal_status_in_the_United_States


Edit: It is easy to hide behind a name on the net shouting such absurdities. How many of you defending sexual age-play are willing to devulge your real life names? I doubt many. Please do not speak to us of all of your merits and what you have done for the community or children because that means little. Many community leaders are infected with this disease themselves. If I sound harsh, it is because I want this subject to be taken seriously. There are no shades of gray here. There is no between the lines to read. Plain and simple.. let me spell it out .. NO SEX WITH CHILDREN and no representation of having sex with children either because it enables the abuser.

Age Verification is only the first welcome and required step to policing second life. Only when we have completely cleaned up our act can the disgusting things that were shown on German TV and worldwide no longer be polluting the minds of our children by being enacted inside private homes all over SL.

Children must be protected at all costs. Even though children are banned from the grid, anything which could potentially depict a child being hurt must also be banned. Because the existence of an image which might look like a child being abused, is just as abhorrent as actual child abuse. Maybe not for the child, but for me it makes me feel just as sick as if I were to see an actual child being abused in real life and so it should be just as prohibited.

Where I grew up, we believe children don't mature until they are at least 25, and anyone who looks at someone who isn't obviously over 25 and thinks sexual thoughts is just sick in the mind. We also don't allow children to play violent games until they are obviously old enough not to let it corrupt them, so any images that might show children in violent situations must also be banned, to protect the children.

It is very rare to find adults in my community who have perfect skin, and no signs of being overweight, and yet it is astonishing how many AVs in SL I see who don't show any wrinkles or extra pounds around the middle. I can only hope these AVs are not involved in any sex or violence on the grid because, to us, that would clearly be child abuse. Roleplaying like Cops and Robbers, Exotic Dancers, Vampires, etc, is not an excuse, it is all sex and violence and if your AV isn't six feet tall, wrinkled, and overweight, then you are participating in child abuse on the net.

Finally I don't want to hear any excuses about SL being a virtual world and people wanting to roleplay. If your AV doesn't look just like you do IRL then something is wrong with you. Nor do I want to hear anything about acting out fantasies. If you want to shoot people in SL then this is obviously something you really want to do in real life. And you'll just want more and more of it, and go on a rampage in a mall, until the police shoot you. People who want to do things like that are sick, and shouldn't have an outlet. If people have sick desires to act out violence or ageplay I don't want them polluting SL with it in their houses, they get out of SL and go to the Mall or something and find some RL outlet for their sickness instead, so I don't have to think about it in SL.

I applaud German sensationalist TV for helping police American video games, since Germany is well known for having millions of people who practice the more dirty sexual kinks in Europe, this is a bold step forward, and I'm grateful to Linden Labs for bowing to their suggestions. When SL is free of all sex and violence, and all AVs have the required wrinkles and obesity, it will be a much more wholesome place to play in.

Now if only the law could be changed to make this virtual roleplaying just as illegal as actual child abuse, then these sickos, vampires, and furries would no longer be drawn to SL and see us as a safer outlet than abusing and biting people and raping children and pets in real life.

Take Care,
Lorna.

Thanks for posting Lorna,

Let us stick with the subject of sexual age-play and not draw other unrelated issues into the thread please. Let us keep this thread clean and on topic. Thank you again.


Vryl Valkyrie

Just to translate this post:

Some people who wanted to look at child porn
* Who were prosecuted for it
* and prevented from looking at it anymore
* 4% of them committed an actual abuse crime.

I would like to see what % of people who want to look at child porn but havent been blocked from doing so, actually commit an actual abuse crime, so I can decide whether banning it makes children safer or not.

Presumably, if banning it makes children safer, then the % of people who look at porn and arent banned, who go on to do actual abuses.. would be more than 4%.. but is it?

If so, we can go ahead and close Drug Clinics, because putting people on methadone would feed their heroin addiction and make them want more and more, and if we simply cut off their supply, they will wake up in the morning and no longer be heroin addicts.

For the record, I find sexual ageplay with child AVs pretty appalling, but reading Kathryn's post is making me wonder if banning roleplay of something illegal actually stops it, or makes people do real illegal things instead...

Take Care,
Lorna.

Hi Lorna,

The majority of people who parcipate in sexual age-play are not doing so for therapeutic reasons. I can not possibly imagine anyone having actual sex whilst pretending to either be a child or to be with a child for medical or therapeutic reasons. Excuse my expression, but that is BS.

I agree with you 100% that sexual age-play is appalling and should not be condoned under any circumstances.

Although we can understand the psychological aspects of the "why's" involved does not mean that we should endorse it. Furthermore, by endorsing it, does not mean it will deter possible offenders from sexually abusing children either.


Vryl Valkyrie

Thank you Lorna for thay post. Other than the Protect the children part, which is valid concern...that was the funniest goddamn thing I've read in a long time. I stand in awe of your greatness.......

Suzanne van Buul-van Dalen, from Utrecht, the Netherlands. There, out for anybody to Google. I have absolutely no problem to personally take a stand. I have already taken the same stand on Dutch websites when the topic was being debated back here. Also using my real name. Nobody should ever be prosecuted for having any fantasy, nor for sharing and enacting that fantasy with with consenting adults. I will defend anyone's rights to do that no matter what my personal opinion of the fantasy in question. Openly, without any need to be ashamed. And while I recognise the fact LL is within their rights to ban ageplay anyway, I would really like to see them take a stand and refuse to bow down to pressure to infringe on personal freedoms.

Are you as willing to stand for your convictions, I wonder? Name please?

Bravo to you Suzy for showing that you are either oblivious to the reality of how demented it is to sexually fantasize od children and or also act those fantasies out, especially in a virtual world using the imagery of an adult with a child. Furthermore, these images portrayed are sometimes turned into a viable market for adults who feed on the sick sexual desires for children. I have no respect for you as a person or a human.

Vryl Valkyrie

So, I guess you won't be sucking her blood anytime soon......

The argument is continually made that giving pedophiles an outlet in SL prevents them from acting out their urges with actual children. Rather than resorting to standup comedy or ad hominem attacks, can those advocating legitimizing sexual ageplay cite any research supporting this theory? Because all the research I've read concerning rapists who choose any age of victims, not only pedophiles, has always shown that these offenders progress from fantasizing about the offense to actually committing it. This is why, as a condition of their parole, sex offenders are often prohibited from viewing pornography. They've proven that they can't handle it and it increases the chances that they will reoffend.

@ Lorna, it is very difficult for obvious reasons to conduct a study of people who have not yet been caught doing something illegal. They aren't about to volunteer for a study that would probably land them in jail. We can only study the ones who have already been caught. But for me 4% is a very significant number, if one of them lives on my block. These criminals eventually get out of jail and live in society. In order to protect society from them, we need to protect them from themselves. And if we can do something to prevent some of them from ever doing it in the first place, how can that possibly be a bad thing?

We all love the freedom that SL's anonymity gives us. But we can't forget that there are human beings behind all those avatars. Not all of them are wonderful people. Let's turn the percentage argument around. What percent would be acceptable? If sexual ageplay led only one percent to offend against a real child, would that be OK? What if only one half of one percent offended, could we live with that in order to be able to do whatever we please online regardless of the consequences? I don't think so. Forget percentages. One is too many.

I actually did look for research through my college's online research system but I couldn't find any studies that mentioned whether virtual age-play led to actual abuse. The most relavent thing I could find was a study that showed that having child pornography charges was a good indicator of pedophilia, and that in a study comparing criminals with charges unrelated to sex to criminals charged with sexual abuse, the criminals that were charged with sexual abuse had generally viewed fewer and milder forms of pornography prior to their conviction than those who had non-sexual charges. So there may be some truth to the argument that doing something virtually allows an outlet for something they wouldn't do irl. But like I said there's still no study that I could find actually talking directly about whether doing something virtually leads to actuality.

Greetings everyone,

Thanks to you all for your input. I must confess what shocks me on these forums is to see so many who defend adults right to sexually role play having sex with a child. Why would anyone who cared anything about children do that? It is disgusting and sick. It makes me question in my mind what kind of people would defend this type of arguement.

I understand the sickness and pity those who are aflicted with this disease of desiring children. However, my primary concern is not the adult at this point (although I do care for all humans), my concern is for the safety and welfare of the child whose voice is not heard here.

Vryl Valkyrie

I guess you just answered my question by avoiding it. Apparently you are not willing to stand for your convictions with your real name. Which leads me to wonder why you posted that highly suggestive question about whether or not people defending other people's right to ageplay would be willing to come out using their real name.

Not willing to come out with your real name yourself, but challenging those with opposite views to do that, just to suggest they would be ashamed to stand by their beliefs? At least I can look in the mirror and know I'm not a hypocrite.

I don't need or want any respect from the likes of you.

Why stop at ageplay? theres many fantasies that are realized in secondlife that would otherwise be illegal in real life. If your willing to label anyone who roleplays ages in secondlife as a pedophile then why not label all the people invovled in forced fantasies rapists? Or ban all furrys for being invovled in beastiality etc etc ...Personally I dont like ageplay or condone it persay, but I dont see how it relates to real life in anyway. Of course if a person has rl underage pictures on thier account thats another issue. But this is a matter of taste and once you start regulating that,regulating peoples fantasies, well I tell you that sounds like something out of 1984. I find ageplay disgusting but thats me the point is where does it end? How long before everythings banned because some ppl dislike it? If two consenting adults are in real life and and are roleplaying a fantasy like this, like lets say teacher and the school girl should police come and kick thier door down and arrest them? You cant regulate taste and opinion. And I think you would find that people indulging in these fantasies would be quite disgusted by the real life act of doing the same thing, same as ppl invovled in forced fantasies or any other fantasy that is realized in sl, theres always exceptions to that of course but theres exceptions to that in every genre of these fantasies so again why not ban everything? Everyone knows that the people they are having fun with in sl are of legal age and are consenting. More importantly I dont think this would even be an issue because honestly I dont mind ageplay being banned but the point is where does it end? And LL's completely illogical plan of making people verify age in this manner to remedy this problem is redicules, I think even you people speaking out against ageplay could agree with that. This isnt a small thing, its the end of a amazing place, secondlife,a place of free thought and expression I always thought, a place that could have had a great future in the next 10 years, but that future is very bleak now and I think the drop in users playing over the next couple months will speak for itself if this whole age verify and the changes in game going along with it goes through.

So no more child avatars, no more ageplay how does that stop what people say,its not like you need to have a child avatar to ageplay, so I guess we need to start banning words too right? Write up regulations on how you can and cant have cybersex. Its really just redicules. This is a game people, lets put it into perspective, when secondlife starts pumping out and breeding real life pedophiles,rapist etc.. thats the day this would be a real issue,thats also the day that monkey's sprout wings and fly to mars.

Suzy,

Thanks for your post. I do not think I am the one who is defending sexual age-play. I am here to voice my outrage over sexual age-play revolving around children. I do not need to prove myself to you nor to anyone else. I have no respect for you nor anyone else who can engage in sexual acts with children whether in role play or not nor for people such as yourself who can defend these rights. I find it appalling and it makes me deeply ill inside the core of my being.

Vryl Valkyrie


Zack,

Please stick to the subject at hand.. which is sexual age-play revolving around children. Let us not play needless word games in order to whitewash the reality of how sick it is to sexually desire a child.

Thanks.

Vryl Valkyrie