Fix It Already

Yeah, actually, I can. Sure, you do get people who are belligerent and rude even the first time they try and communicate with the company, but even though their concerns are just as valid despite their lack of effort in effectively communicating, I am not talking about them. I am referring to people who have been patiently waiting for up to several MONTHS for responses, updates, ANYTHING. There are PLENTY of companies out there who value their customers input and offer great support for their products and services.



Oh please... let's keep the stupid strawman arguments out of this, OK?

Beyond the simple fact that I NEVER EVER said ANYTHING about personal one-on-one communication with everyone, everytime, just how many people do you think we are talking about here? SURELY you don't believe those hype numbers on the login page? Even so, there are no end of companies with that number of customers (and more!) who actually do have great communication and support.

As for companies who offer great support, I'll use ServerBeach as an example, since that is who I use to host my webservers. I can email their support, I can submit tickets, I can go into their forums, I can call them on the phone and get a warm body any time I want, and you know what? I get LISTENED *and* RESPONDED to, often with my issues resolved in the first contact! Their employees have a PRESENCE literally EVERYWHERE I look. They go out of their way, and often above and beyond the call of duty to help out. Are they perfect? No, of course not, but they make LL look like a garage operation as far as professionalism and support goes.



I am sure that there are plenty who do. However, for every one that does, there are 10 who don't; 10 who are reasonable and willing to have a LITTLE patience and wait for a REASONABLE time before they resort to "other methods" to be heard. It's an unfortunate, but time-tested and effective communication strategy, but the "squeaky wheel gets the grease"; assuming there is any grease to begin with.



I live in the US, too, and I can tell you EXACTLY why that is. It is because of companies like LL. We get so used to being ignored and treated like mushrooms that we expect it out of every one we have to deal with. In many cases, US companies don't care about customer support one whit, because it is a cost center that affects their bottom line. They then get short-sighted executives who look at that fact alone, and slash the "fat" out of the budget, then wonder why their bottom line shrinks exponentially as customers flock to their competition.

I've done the customer respresentative route, too; I have been there, and I know what helps keep customers happy so that they don't resort to LCD tact. The problem is that there is also a "culture" of CSRs out there which is generally elitist and they treat customers VERY poorly because "they are just too stupid to understand my elite techno-geek-speak". You treat customers like that (especially customers like me, who often know several orders of magnitude more about the subject than the wannabee at the other end of the line; yeah, I deal with that BS, too), and guess what? They crucify you, and rightly so. Now, as far as I am concerned, that's not LL's problem (at least as far as I know). Their problem is on the other end of the spectrum, as idealized by this Demotivator.

I do believe in being nice as I can with people on first contact, but my experiences tell me, over and over again, that when the carrot fails to work enough times, it is time to get out the stick, because a lot of the time, the problem is that companies do not take customer support and communication seriously. I've seen companies get a literal beating over poor customer support, prompting massive and sweeping reforms from customers who were persistent enough with their stick-fu to get the company to see the light, and it wasn't just a handful of them, either. It's the way business works, because businesses are run by people, and that's the way people work.



What we see here in the forums is, at best, the tip of the iceberg. If you take the time to READ a lot of the complaints, they are posted here after exhausting several avenues of communication. How many gripe posts start off with something like "I've tried xxx support avenue (email, "Live Help" (haha), phone support), but I can't seem to get any help at all, and I am pissed off!"? Just because the first thing you see from people here in the forums is a (lack of) support rant doesn't automatically mean that they haven't tried to do anything else.

Yes, as a small business owner, it is my JOB to listen to my customers; not a few of them, ALL of them, no matter who they are or how they ask for support. It is my job to respond to their issues and concerns in a timely manner. Is it hard? YOU BETCHA; however you ignore its importance to your continued existence at your own peril. Sure, those that are serious arseholes, I may choose to end my business relationship with, but I am certainly not going to do so if the REASON they are so is because of ME. I have no problem telling someone that I can no longer serve them because they have become too costly for me to help, but I still take it as myself partly to blame because I didn't find a way to make it profitable for both of us to continue our business relationship.

Dark corner of the forums? Please.... WHO made it so that all we have left as far as communication with LL via the forums was "dark corners"? Hmm? Why, I believe it was LL themselves, who decided that they could no longer effectively communicate and closed the "lit areas" forums, deferring to that joke of a communication medium known as "the Blog".



Wrong. It is VERY constructive and efficient for LL to address our questions and support requests, especially in a timely fashion. It reduces churn. It increases loyalty. It does ACTUALLY reduce the need for more communication. When you're talking, people are listening, and won't necessarily ask the same questions over and over, getting madder and madder in the process. A lot of the problem is not only the level of heat they are taking, but the volume. A good deal of which is simply repeated volleys from the same people, JUST BECAUSE they aren't getting addressed, personally, or even as a group.



Why do you keep creating strawmen arguments? No one, me especially, is asking for them to listen, respond, implement, support, and sunset every damn suggestion ever made in every form or fashion. Really, no, I mean it.

OK, fine. Let's address the issue of suggestions and features. Who asked for the UI rewrite? Was it a highly-requested feature on their own voting tool? I don't recall ever seeing it. Who asked for the Alt-key to activate menus "feature"? Who asked for the key changes that pissed off nearly every builder in the world? Where was this failure / breakdown in communications which led to these awful changes? Hmm? Did LL even bother using their OWN Feature Voting Tool to see if people would want these changes before they bothered to spend time adding them, getting reamed for adding them, and then taking them back out? Talk about a waste of developer time and customer goodwill which would have been EASILY resolved with even the TINIEST effort at communication beforehand.



Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I just disagree with it, and I disagree with it not only as a customer, but also as a small business owner.

If I am unresponsive to my customers' needs, or worse, cost them business as a result of my own ineptitude, I fully expect and deserve to have my arse chewed out. They have every right to be angry, and every right to express it. Does it affect me negatively? Sure. It can lead to burnout. However, it does something FAR more important: gives me incentive to do whatever it takes to avoid getting chewed out again in the future; IE, it makes me not only a better person, but makes me a better businessman.

Yes, I agree that there are people on the other end with feelings, mothers, kids, whatever. However, as long as the employees are shielded behind the nameless, faceless, SOULLESS corporation, I deal with them as a representative of said corporation. If I am mad at the corporation, I let them know that, in no uncertain terms. Unless I know that person is responsible for my problems, I don't direct my angst towards them personally. If they ARE responsible, well, they may get both barrels, if they haven't handled communication with me very well so far.

If the people I am speaking to want to get to know me personally and want to be my neighbors (and, no, I don't buy into the "everyone is my neighbor" theory, sorry), then sure, I will be more willing to cut them some slack, as long as they are actually conveying my concerns and issues to someone who can do something about them. If they aren't, then they can have my ire as well, as they aren't doing their job. If the other person responsible isn't doing his job, then I expect them to convey my ire as my proxy. If not, then I don't consider them doing their job. If that is because the company was set up in a moronic fashion and specifically isolates customer service as a red-headed stepchild, then as far as I am concerned, they deserve what they get for working in such an environment.

A business relationship is an investment of time and/or money. It works a lot like a marriage. You want it to work out, because you prefer the certain and known versus ending the relationship and sailing the high seas looking to establish another relationship. There be pirates and sea monsters out there (ARRR!) and, unless the current port-of-call proves to be one of them, and thus making it more profitable to brave the seas versus trying to deal with the pirates you know (which is often more preferable than with the ones you don't), you do everything in your power to make it work out. If that includes a little butt-kicking to get some attention, then so be it.



I am sure that a large percentage of the 2+ million who've already been through the turnstyle fully agree with you there.

Believe me, as soon as I can find another similar port-of-call with less pirates and sea monsters than LL, I'm gone. I won't even look back except to shake my head sadly, thinking what could have been. They have not engendered any loyalty in me, let alone any desire to see them succeed in the long-term. I'm happy to be to them what they apparently want to be to me: a one-night stand. Once I get what I want out of them, and have a new place to move to, then I won't bother them anymore.



As for me, I try. However, for things that still have gone unresolved for EIGHT MONTHS, I will continue to burn their butt over it. I don't expect any less; neither should they, as far as I am concerned. I also feel bad for the HUNDREDS of people I have seen post, first begging for support, then getting POed and demanding it. They (the customers, not LL) shouldn't have to put up with that, and we shouldn't have to put up with lousy communications policies and practices, especially as paying customers. Free, I can understand; you get what you pay for, but those that pay should get some support value for their money. Especially those who pay the megabucks for their stupid sims.

I have already emailed Philip Linden with my concerns. I was even cordial as I could be. No response. I'm glad someone can get a response out of him, but it is meaningless in the greater scheme of things. I sincerely hope I wasn't telling him anything he didn't already know or wasn't aware of.

So, in conclusion, again, I feel that LL has gone out of their way to create this awful support situation, and is causing people to have to resort to less savory attempts at communication due to a number of factors, not the least of which are ineptitude, inexperience, and probably simple incompetence. That last one will prove itself in the end, as there WILL be serious competition at some point, and if it executes even halfway decently, it will be a serious challenge for LL to keep things going. Personally, I don't think LL cares in the long run. I think that there will be a handful of the top brass who will retire off of the unearned and undeserved fat due to something like LL going public, and then will leave the dying carcass of SL on the side of the road for the vultures to feast on. But, they will go down in the history books as the first in ... something.

I mean, that's the American Dream, right?

That has to be the most verbose post I think I've ever seen on these forums...

My point, earlier, is that yes, it IS okay to be beligerent and rude.

It's just not very effective at persuading people to agree with you.

Any company, especially LL, can benefit from good clear communication with the people they're, for lack of a better word, "sheparding" into that new frontier.

That doesn't mean they're going to stop the caravan everytime someone needs to use a tree... and they'll get accused of being insensitive and not listening when they make those kinds of decisions.

It's not only that there are too many of us... and too few Lindens... its that there are too many different and competing ideas on what SecondLife "can" "should" and "needs" to be, for LL to sit down and rationally discuss them all with us and make us understand which will and which won't be considered.

It's not a democracy after all... and our concensus isn't required.
Nor is our comprehension.

But at least if we understand where LL is going wtih SecondLife brings many of us a bit more comfort and some sense of security, which is of value to people with a lot invested into the world of SecondLife.

Despite what naysayers think the blog DOES help with that more than random lost messages in the forums did, LL has improved on getting the word out, compared to 2 years ago. I'm certain many will say not enough... and, I'll agree that they could be better.

If we want to be heard AND answered ... it would more effective for us to band together behind a few champions that can represent our concerns effectively to LL, and speak with backing of many. (it's hard to galvanize a touristy population behind a cause, but there are plenty of regulars around that should be eager to participate in such a movement).

If nothing else, perhaps a little more organization on our part might help nudge LL in directions we would prefer they go.

Individuals pointing fingers and barking like rabid dogs certainly aren't going to have a chance of encouraging positive change.

Yet, you still used architect as a verb.

First i know nothing about hardware, OS's, clusters or any of that our stuff you all are talking about. But i do understand scalability for growth, and this is LL's real problem, hardware and all those other things can be fixed with enough money to hire the right staff.

What LL missed was the foresight to see the growth potential once the media took hold, I joined SL on Oct 8th, at which time there was 710k some members... 4 months... and SL has become huge. LL is taking steps to correct thier errors, but despite what many members might hope, they dont have a genie in a bottle to grant thier wishes overnight.

Im not defending LL, thier CS is probably the worst i have ever seen, just them closing down the land management forum and Linden Answer forum prove that they dont really want to have problems aired on a public forum that they run... remember they are a business.

As to the strength of the OP and the level of aggression that was showed, sorry it came off more as strutting and bragging, then actually airing a grievance/offering a suggestion. Under no circumstances shoud you EVER try to belittle the LL staff on thier forum. And obviously your "building a career" hasnt kept you so busy that you dont have time to
1) spend time in SL and
2) Complain(strut & brag), about how you can do better.

Challenge is on for you, make something better with a better structure for growth and expansion, and i promise you , I WILL BE your first paying member.

That was just the Cliff Notes for the Reader's Digest Condensed version of the Abridged Hacked-to-Death Summarization of what I REALLY wanted to say.



Well, and my point, again, is that after spending the umpteenth attempt to solicit proper support behavior out of a company, and coming up empty-handed, what has anybody got to lose by going the piss-and-vinegar route? What's the incentive in trying anything other than rude and belligerent when all you see around you are people giving up and going that route after long and fruitless attempts at trying cordial and saccharine?



Yeah, but no one realistically is asking them to do that; we're asking for communication when they are making the decision between taking the long, but relatively smooth route, or the wheel-and axle-breaking chuckhole-and-boulder strewn shortcut which leaves a lot of us rubbing our sore bums from being tossed out the back of the wagons repeatedly.



I don't buy the "There's too many of us and not enough of them" argument. It doesn't take a 1,000-person support team to effectively communicate with and support a few hundred thousand customers. Not all customers have issues, and then not all the time. Many support issues can be triaged and resolved quickly using many different tried-and-true techniques. The difference is that a good support and PR department uses effective tools and practices to communicate with the customers; they work smarter, not harder.

Yes, I agree that there are too many differing points of view on what SL is and will become, but that is true even within LL. If LL is looking to become the herald of the 3D Web 2.0, then the centralized architecture is gonna have to go, but then there goes your community aspect; there goes the aspect of a cohesive "world", precisely because of decentralization. That's fine, though, if that is the ultimate goal, but is it? No one, even at LL, seems to know or, if they do, they're keeping their cards VERY close to their chest.

Anyway, one thing is for sure... continuing to spring the changes on us without involving us in the dialog is going to continue to piss people off. People are making plans in SL; long-term plans. Long-term investments. Long-term (business) relationships. Businesses like a stable foundation. They DO NOT like something that changes daily based on the direction the wind is blowing at any particular moment. I think that LL needs to do a LOT better with communicating with us. I mean, what happened to all those town hall initiatives? Weren't we supposed to be having multiples of those things like every month? What happened to them?



Oh, you won't get any argument from me there. The natural counter to that argument is that they don't need our money, our support, or our understanding, either. Like it or not, they also aren't a dictatorship. LL and SL itself cannot live without customers, and if they think they have a captive audience for the long term and can continue to run this gig like it is the only gig in town forever, they've got some serious wake-up calls coming.



Umm. I hate to say it like this, but baloney! All the blog provides is NOTHING more than what an announcement forum provides. That's it. I have a list of topics, with the ability to respond with commentary (well, sometimes). That's all an announcement forum is. The differences are cosmetic, with the only significant one being to "follow the trend" (read: fad) and be like all the "cool people" because they have blogs, too.

I only know how it has been over the last 11 months, but I can definitely say that, in my experience during that time, communication, both in volume and quality, has plummeted radically to near non-existance. I remember there was a time I praised Torley for being a great CM for her efforts and presence in the forums and elsewhere. Since that time, I hardly ever see her post anything, and she has pretty much dropped off the radar as someone I feel like I could go to talk about problems and concerns. She may still be a great person and worker at LL, but as a great communicator back to the customer base? "Torley who?"



In an ideal world, that idea has merit. The problem is in finding people who will avoid forming a "FIC" group, and getting people to trust others enough to represent their views and issues accurately to LL. I've been part of things like Focus Groups before, and there is often a large amount of animosity directed at those folks and the FG initiative as well because the public doesn't understand what the goals of the group are. Anything like that has to have huge amounts of transparency, and what you will end up with in an ideal implementation of that concept is pretty much what we should have had all along -- a real customer support and service organization, paid for and properly managed by LL itself.

Beyond that, there's the fact that a lot of the issues are individual issues; something which no democraticly-organized group is going to be able to solve, and actually can introduce more delay into an already overextended and broken system.



I'm all for it, but I will have to remain a curmudgeony disbeliever in its actual effectiveness until I see some consistent positive returns coming from it. From what I gather reading the older posts in these forums, this route has been explored more in the past with rather, shall we say, "dismal" results. That certainly doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried again, but it is my sincere belief that, until some radical changes are undertaken within LL to make them more customer-service focused, it really won't make much difference.



No, but biting rabid dogs get lots of attention, though it usually amounts to little more than a bullet in the brainpan out back of the woodshed. Poor ol' Yeller.

Consistent, constant, and effective communication is the vaccination shot against rabid customers. I don't think that point can be stressed enough.

Just deleted everything I was writting suffice to say 1st poster sounded like he knew whats up, and TL expressed much of my own thoughts and JP the blog IMO sucks and not a little. Maybe, why we are here rather than there, lol.

I stand by my previous statement:

"... the blog DOES help with that more than random lost messages in the forums did, LL has improved on getting the word out, compared to 2 years ago. I'm certain many will say not enough... and, I'll agree that they could be better."

Say what you will...

But when LL used the forums as their "official announcment" mechanism to inform us of changes and issues, it "sucked" way more than the blogs do now.

What does someone lose by "taking the low road"?

Dignity... honor... respect... reputation...

But, no great loss. These are worthless, out-moded concepts, no?




I'll expect the right to have a binding vote on my representatives
and key issues once LL starts collecting income tax from us...

or when Virtual Reality becomes a government regulated utility...

Until then, we can only hope to influence their decisions.

"Demanding more influence" is as misguided as trying to weasle out
of a speeding ticket by telling the police officer that he works
for you, because you pay taxes.




Sorry, but I disagree.

LL *is* a dictatorship and they *do* have a captive audience.

There are few enough companies capable of competing that are
foolish enough to expose themselves to the huge liability issues
that have yet to be decided in this niche.

Online gambling, copyright law, financial liability, "Same as
cash" issues, un-moderated customer created scripts and content,
fallible age verification, network latency and cost ... there
are many things that make this niche a huge risk for the meager
rewards.

SL, might, quite honestly, never see serious competition on the same
scale that it occupies now. And if it does.... I can almost guarantee that whatever that competitor offers, it will be *far* more restrictive than what SL offers. And probably charge more.

Either that, or it'll be anarchy with serious inter-grid trust issues and no such thing as a central economy.

I'm the OP.

1. I have gone through official channels with suggestions for hardware and software improvements.

2. LL is utterly unresponsive to *all* contact attempts, whether they're complaints or offers of help.

3. My OP was harsh indeed...because I've been nice about the whole thing for a little over two years. Nice, evidently, does not work. I think I've given it enough of a chance.

What more dignity can they lose after being bent over the rail and reamed repeatedly without so much as even a "thanks"? They already feel worthless from being treated less than dirt by a monolithic corporation; how much more "please, sir, may I have another?" humility do they have to endure before the INdignity, DIShonor, DISrespect, and LOUSY reputation proffered unto them by LL ends?

Yeah, sure, they can end it at any time by just pulling up stakes and leaving town, but WHY does it HAVE to be that way? WHY? Answer: It only does because that's the way LL wants it to be, and/or that's the only way they know HOW to make it.



Wow.. I have no idea how you squeezed that rebuttal out of what I said. Maybe you should go back and re-read that passage again, because it didn't say ANYthing like what you responded over. I said we're simply asking for communication BEFORE they go off and break stuff that they end up having to waste even more time to REMOVE when they could have asked and saved themselves the trouble. That concept really isn't that obtuse, is it?



No, they are not a dictatorship for one simple reason: I (and everyone else, for that matter) can walk away, voting with our wallets. The audience is only as captive as it wishes to be.

Different companies will have different (and most likely superior) ways of addressing these issues. LL certainly has no monopoly on creative risk management stratagems to allow for rich, complex user experiences in online worlds.



Yah and, at one time, the world market for computers was estimated to be FIVE. No worries about competition in that epic head-in-sand moment, either.

Far more restrictive? Maybe in some ways, maybe it will be far LESS restrictive in other, MORE IMPORTANT ways. I'm looking at some of the competition now, and though it is still a bit early, some of the things I am seeing are very provocative and inspiring. One thing is for sure, though, LL's time in the sun is going to be VERY limited. The less bridges they burn now, the better chance they will have to continue to survive in the future.

Cost more? If customer service and support are only TWICE as good as LL's, and the company shows it is highly competent and cares about its customers, with a SOLID plan for growth, I would be HAPPY to pay double my current sub rate for it! Perhaps more.



You mean what SL is turning into? How long before we see separate grids opening up? There's already an OpenSim initiative, which is progressing quite rapidly. The client is already Open-Source. Why bother with paying LL for lousy product when you can own and support your own better for less? After all, if SL is going to become the new 3D Web 2.0, how is LL going to position itself in that as a centralized controller of a DEcentralized phenomenon? Certainly you won't argue that mass centralization is good for a new World-Wide-Uberweb?

Regarding #2: LL is not unresponsive to *all* contact attempts. Just unresponsive to *ALL* your contact attempts.

Did the thought occur to you that perhaps they didn't particularly care for your suggestions and rather than insult you, or argue pointlessly with you, they chose to remain silent?

"insensitive" and "neglectful" I would agree with to a point.

You expect too much and offer too much melodrama to make your point.

This isn't Gitmo... or Abu Ghraib.

The exit door is open and may be used at anytime.

If someone feels mistreated and chooses to stay and put up with it, they have no one to blame but themselves for it.

Anything past that becomes a thirst for revenge or a vendetta that seeks out further humiliation in order to act like some strung up martyr for the sheer joy of being rightiously indignant.

Please. SecondLife is a recreational world for the *vast* majority of it's users. If you don't enjoy it... don't be a damned fool about it, cut your losses and move on.



"Oh WHY does it HAVE to be that way? WHY?" ??

Because it's "Life" and it comes with no guarantee of fairness.

Sorry.



Maybe it was the metaphor of a speeding wagon train and spanked bottoms that made me veer off in that 'obtuse' direction.

You still sound like you're "demanding to be consulted before major decisions are implemented."

We're customers, not members of the board. The only policy we get to set is where we choose to spend our money and time.




Unless, due to stubborn foolishness one has abdicated their own right to exercise that choice, and, instead, feels compelled to stick around protesting and whining about not being listened to.



"Time" is relative. We're talking "internet business" here, where 3 years is a decent run for a game... and 5 years amazingly unlikely

Ten years from now, it won't matter what bridges LL has mended or burned, it will be a completely different playing field.

SecondLife may still be around in 10 years... if LL can weather through updating things like the physics engine, scripting language, avatar models and more... but doing so without seriously breaking massive amounts of legacy content may be impossible.

So, which road do you want LL on then? Breaking things now, in the hopes of incorporating newer technology that may help SL stay popular a few more years? Or slapping on band-aids and trying to hold it together as-is for a few more months?



This sounds more rude than is intended... but you must seriously need a lot of hand holding if you're willing to pay that much more for it.




That's quite a can of worms.

The way I see it happening is that hosting your own sim, but being tied into the SL grid would probably be a far lower 'tier' fee than having LL host your sim for you. I've heard nothing about them open-sourcing the asset server and without some sort of asset authority, porting objects or people from grid to grid will be ugly as hell.

I doubt anyone has a solid idea how this will all play out yet.
Should be interesting to see how it goes.

Hah. Sure it has. Except for one small detail (which I ended up deleting from the post you quoted)...

I remember when SL started, and that it started as a fork of the old active/outerworlds. I'm pretty familiar with the code that it forked from, and exactly how and why it's so terribly broken. LL did nothing to fix it after the fork--in fact they only piled more broken things on top until the original broken-ness was entirely hidden by the amazing broken-ness of everything else.

The solution to this is not pretty, and no one wants to do it. The original code must be scrapped completely, as it was riddled with unfixable flaws to begin with. Think of it as the difference between MacOS 9 and OSX...OSX is a *complete* rewrite of the operating system, but the old MacOS binaries will run on it. SL needs a *complete* rewrite, from top to bottom, but also (and I'm sorry for putting this in such simple terms, but when I get overly technical I tend to bore people to death--hope its not too late) implement a series of mechanisms to deal with previous version compatability and legacy content.

It is NOT impossible to have their cake and eat it too.

This would be an amazingly huge job, and I don't think they have the talent to pull it off. I know that's harsh, but I'm a new yorker, and you'll get what you get.

Even if they could pull off that huge job, the hardware architecture on the server side needs to be completely scrapped and redone. It's standard knowledge that grid computing does not work well for certain applications, specifically the kind that require high internode bandwidth. In fact, in the context of a high internode bandwidth system, adding nodes to a grid can actually SLOW IT DOWN, with no way to regain speed except at minimum converting to a cluster/grid hybrid system.

Now, that may not exactly mean throwing out all those PCs and buying some really big iron. But it at least means trashing the current architecture and starting all over again from scratch.

Of course, I expect exactly nothing from LL, and I'm never disappointed. They've bitten off quite a lot more than they can chew, and have no idea what they should be doing next. I feel kind of sorry for the engineers and administrators over there; it's a thankless job, and I'm sure they're getting a lot of shit from every direction. This smells like a management problem to me.

So one last time LL, if you actually read these forums...

Step #1: Fire every goddamn manager you have.

clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right , here I am .....
, If it ain't broke don't fix it, why did they fix the forums? Suffice it to say, I risk a few thousand and a year and a half of work/play, if I were to pull up my tent post and pack it in. LL could literally lose millions, especially if they harbor the sentiments you so aptly refer to as a "dictatorship". This is a business, maybe being groomed for sale. Too many like me packing up their tent and yanking their posts won't garner the confidence to expend the kind of money that is the potential. There are no inner circle members of a board without customers (thats a different kind of circle). The real world and secondlife are both rich with the diversity of its inhabitants, goosestepping should have died with the funny moustache. Embrace the idea that there are many ways to a location and your right is only your right, and doesn't neccessarily make it right for anyone else. JP you tout "love it or leave it", if you don't love the arguments or the way someone has posted his frustration why not follow your own advise, why argue? TL was honest in their rant (even if the color is harsh to your eyes) I find yours a bit dis-ingenuious, and thats a big word for me whom still counts by stomping his foot and you should see me build by the numbers ,rofl. Walk into the light.

Re: MacOS9 -> MacOSX: Have you had to admin a cluster of MacOSX Xserves? The yummy Mac GUI... the familiarity of FreeBSD... and insidious non-unixy manglings to get them to work together. It's.... like going to a foreign country. The letters look so familiar but they're all arranged in weird ways.

Re: "legacy support" Mac had the luxury of building an emulator that ran within their newly adopted OS, the integration between which was a file level thing, apps didn't need to talk to each other quite so much. God only knows how they implemented the networking aspect, I honestly didn't touch Macos8 or 9 at all. LL is trying this more on a component basis... rolling forward their protocols and trying to shore up areas of code to prepare for replacing components like Havok. I doubt there will be an "old SL emulator" running inside the new SL, that would be... very confusing.

Re: New Yorker: Okay, okay... I should have picked up on that from your writing style earlier. My bad. =D

Re: active worlds history: way before my time with SL. I've only been here since early 2004.

Re: complete re-write: See my previous post about breaking legacy content. Some compromise between the "painful march forward" and "backward compatibility" needs to occur. Breaking too much legacy content may be just as bad as doing nothing.

Why? Three reasons:

1) I think people are over-exaggerating and over-reacting to issues. It seems like people are trying to one-up each other on how rude they can be to the group of people running the site they're posting on. Like teasing a sleeping dog until they rouse it enough to try to bite them. It's silly.

2) I quibble with people on the forums on issues I have some interest in... because I enjoy it. It would be boring if I just agreed.

3) I need practice making my points more succinctly... as many of my tangled analogies demonstrate. This is a great venue to practice in, and I certainly need it.

So... Disingenuous? Perhaps. But I'm here because I enjoy SecondLife . Which is more than I can say for the folks across the table.

The issues are understated and people seem to lack any reaction at all. The client is constantly crashing and the servers "can't handle the load". Can you imagine another RPG such as Warcraft III or a system such as Luinx or Windows randomly crashing every hour or so. The glitches are plentiful: a month ago you could copy any object you wanted and gain full rights legally, 2 months ago, the Lindens "accidentally" allowed to people to gain full permissions to all scripts, the teleports are down half the time, search is slow and yet Lindens report record profits...

Precisely. Now, it could be argued (And it has been, endlessly, by Lindens as well as armchair programmers) that the WoW, unreal*, quake/doom, etc engines are entirely inappropriate for SL, because they do not allow dynamic content editing. It's true that they do not allow dynamic content editing, but I can think of at least two very popular engines off the top of my head that you can license *the source* of, and make any modifications you want to support your application.

And of course it's possible to dynamically change (not edit--but CHANGE) content for example, in the unreal2/3 engines. The game itself does it all the time. Its the build tools and legacy stuff that would be very, very difficult to articulate.

But can anyone think of a good reason NOT to?

Sorry, missed reply.

I dunno... I'd rather be ignored by LL than

"being bent over the rail and reamed repeatedly without so much as even a "thanks"?"

I certainly wouldn't consider that "understated".

If expecting some basic courtesy (which is sometimes lacking; not all the time, but sometimes), ANY response to queries, and actual acknowledgement, let alone solutions to critical/core problems is "expecting too much", what does that really say about the competence of LL? Too much melodrama? Maybe for you, but more and more people are losing hundreds, if not thousands, of US dollars worth of content, sales, and services every day, and are not getting ANY kind of satisfaction for their losses. There are numerous sims out there which spend more time lagging into the dirt and crashing than running (and have been for nearly 10 months now). It's gotten to the point that any polite requests for even STATUS UPDATES are sent to /dev/null. I've even gone in person to the Linden Village and waylaid a Linden for a status update. They feed me the standard corporate line, and I leave without any satisfaction whatsoever.

Yeah, it's my fault for putting my faith and money behind incompetence. I guess I should have known better. See, thing is, when I started, it wasn't so bad, and even as bad as it was, I had the normal newbie bright-eyed hope that it could get better. That was before the wheels got blown off the wagon, and it fell off the cliff.



Maybe. Some customers can get so fed up that they WANT to damage the company. That's part of the risk of doing business. LL nor you should be surprised by that. In the context of your "Life's Tough, Get Over It" response below, you're right, it is, and that goes BOTH WAYS. Crappy companies get bad press, bad reviews, bad reports to consumer advocate agencies, and requests for legal action if the "bad" goes far enough beyond the pale to warrant such. If that makes someone bad for asking to get satisfaction for their losses, then so be it. Personally, I think it makes them a consumer champion; a hero, even, because when companies go bad, they need to go away before they hurt other consumers. Has LL gone that far yet? Some people think so, and have the evidence to back up their claims.



For the purely recreational users, sure; many have already been through the turnstyle and are gone, most likely never to return. However, for the rest, it is FAR more than a simple "recreation", it's a business for them. For some, it is their SOLE SOURCE of income, and they have every right to feel worried, even threatened by every significant mistake LL makes. Yeah, they are like any other user in that, if it gets bad enough, they will have no choice but to cut their losses and move on, but they also have the cajones to stay and fight for their livelihood, like they would in RL.



Then LL shouldn't be surprised when they will become a marginalized property as a result of "life". They are the ones earning the bad rep for it. It's life, after all, and ya reap what ya sow, right?



Sounds like you creatively interpreted the metaphor; I said nothing about "speeding".

A request isn't a demand, it's a request. They ignore it at their own peril, which obviously they love peril (the results of which are another one of those "Life's a Bitch" moments). I simply point out the foible and the truism behind it. If they choose to continue to ignore the truth and continue the foible, then that's just another black mark on them, which will burn them in the long run.

Customers are often better barometers for certain things than members of the Board. Board members live in the Ivory Tower, often not even using the products their company produces at all. What may sound like a good idea at the Board level may end up bankrupting the company (yeah, like that's never happened before).



What's wrong with sticking around and trying to make a positive difference? What's wrong with sticking around and fighting for your investment? What's wrong with sticking around and fighting for your LIVELIHOOD? You can marginalize people's feelings and desires with that stance if you want, but I would rather support them because, without them, we don't really have SL.

..and, yes, positive results can come as a result of using the stick. It is a tried-and-true method for change in human affairs. It has played out time and time again throughout history. Sometimes, breaking a few eggs to make an omelet is what is required.

[qoute]"Time" is relative. We're talking "internet business" here, where 3 years is a decent run for a game... and 5 years amazingly unlikely[/quote]

Uhhh. wrong. Ultima Online is going on 10 years old at this point (and yes, I know quite a few folks who still play it). Everquest is celebrating its 9th anniversary this year. Asheron's Call is 7 now. That's not even getting into the older ones, which are seeing a resurgence, like Meridian 59 and The Realm Online. Quite a few games have been around for at least 5 years now, and are still going strong.



No arguments there. My point is that, at the rate they are going, it won't take ten years to find out whether they will matter in the "playing field".



Oh, I am pretty sure that something called SecondLife will be around in 10 years. Without breaking legacy content? You're kidding, right? Starax Statosky is spinning in his time capsule at this point. Of course it is impossible. I'm not even talking about that problem at all. I'm talking about breaking things they DON'T have to break, like the UI, building interface, etc. I'm talking about making things inoperable or useless that are necessary -- even critical -- for building and enjoying the service. Take, for example, the current particle system glitches. I'm beyond tired of taking my attachments off and re-wearing them to "work around" the problem. I'm tired of having to write borked pseudo-off particle systems that I am gonna have to replace later because of it.



If I have been less than clear on the subject -- ever -- I apologize. I'll spell it out -- again -- for you and anyone else confused by my stance on that subject:

1. Fix what is broken.
2. Finish what is not complete.
3. Start something new.

In that order. Nowhere in that list is anything about "breaking things". However, if progress to fix something critical requires necessitating breaking legacy, then I expect it has to be done, but ONLY AFTER it has been deliberated thoroughly, and discussed with the customers. I do it for my customers of my software; I don't think it is beyond the pale to ask the same of LL, even if the responses are aggregated, due to volume.



Not at all. I just expect to have my concerns to a company I PAY money to at least acknowledged, if not listened to, and, preferably, acted upon. If it costs more money for things to a) not be broken that don't have to be, b) be communicated effectively about between customers/company, and c) be resolved when they are critical and cost customers money, then I would be happy to pay more. Simple as that; your faux condescensions notwithstanding.



Well, there's nothing super-special about the asset system, except in terms of its scale and how it is fine-tuned to operate at said scale. A much smaller grid could pretty much run stock mysql/apache/squid, and work quite well. A more robust asset system could easily allow for scalability, if necessary.



Oh, I dunno. I think some folks have a pretty good handle on it. Implementation takes time, but from what I have seen, it won't be too long.

Over-exaggerating/over-reacting? Perhaps. However, when you are working on a build and the sim time dilation hits 0, then crashes for the TENTH TIME in one day (and it happens quite often), the exasperation sure makes it seem quite understated. That's not even counting the scripting screwups and problems in the build editor.

I'm not trying to be rude to the moderators or trying to play one-upsmanship. I post because these issues are important to me. If you haven't figured it out yet, I really AM for the continued survival and support of SL. I care passionately. I want to see them succeed, because my investment will not have been in vain, like it has with other worlds I have participated in. Unfortunately, this is the fourth one I have been involved with which is making the EXACT SAME mistakes as the previous three. It will suffer, as a result, the EXACT SAME consequences, perhaps on a grander and more spectacular scale than the others, due to its comparative size.

Thus, I fight. I fight with passion, and concern, and I am not afraid to say what I think when I am frustrated with things because, all too often, the issues are not taken remotely serious enough unless you have to live with them day in and day out; either yourself, or vicariously through the related experiences of your customers. Oft times, LL doesn't even know there's a problem until someone corners one of them who can do something about it and beans him a good one, with examples.



Yeah, I definitely wouldn't want people to just agree 100% with what I said; I never expect I am always that right, but I do try to be honest, honorable, respectful in my debates. Debates, not flame wars. Flame wars are "anything goes".



Wow.. a shot across the bow. To be quite honest, you REALLY don't know much about me other than what is presented in the debate on this subject. I've never claimed that I don't enjoy SecondLife in some significant ways (and I challenge you to demonstrate otherwise). To make any rebuttal to such a statement would only serve to describe you as an ardent "fanboi", conjuring up all kinds of sycophantic subjectification we know aren't true. However, let's not go the route to a degenerate assumptive comparison of viewpoints for the purposes of some silly counting coup, OK?

I'm sure if Teal went through what Limbo goes through on a daily basis, you'd come unto the understanding that being ignored and being reamed were one and the same.

If you want to know what I consider a top-notch customer service organization, here's an example of one:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/customerservice.html