OK. What did you guys do to LOD in 1.10.2?

I also have no basis to compare to since I can only use 1.10.2 now -

-- But it appears that LOD has been reduced drastically today in 1.10.2. ... this again was not documented.

... It seems like it's caused a lot of z-buffer flickering, as well?



Av attachments go megablocky at extremely short distances -- even with object detail up *all the way* they still look pretty bad at very short distances.

I'm noticing this in in-world objects as well...

What was changed?

Okay so Michi posted about this earlier, and we've already had a few people grumbling/complaining about this but its been somewhat hard to pin down...

well, suprise, we have wireframe rendering now! woo! ok so using wireframe and some stupid camera tricks i've been able to pretty effectively narrow down the problem with the new way the level of detail is being calculated.

It is by the way an altogether more interesting approach i've noticed as its done prim by prim not whole object by object, and its much smoother overall, nice on that, but there is somewhat of a problem in the way the specific level for a given object is being calculated.

Let me expand on that a little with the help of a sample here...

(note the attached image)

What i've discovered about the newer behavior is that its unfortunately behaving rather 'sticky'... aka it will not 'lower' or 'raise' the tesselation (number of polygons) a given prim is rendered with, until certain thresholds are passed, and now those zones overlap, rather poorly.

Illustrated in my attached image, are two views of the same object, the view on the left, is zoomed in somewhat with the camera, and should, thus, have the higher detail rendering. The view on the right, is the same exact object, but zoomed out further, and thus should assumably have the poorer quality rendering.

But what is going on? they appear infact to be the exact opposite. The closer in camera shot, has far far less polygonal detail than the same object, viewed further away, how could this be?

The trick i used to get these screenshots is that the left hand shot, was 'approaching' the object, i.e. i centered the camera on the object, and pulled the camera out as far as i could. *THEN* i moved the camera progressively closer and closer and closer, till i found the point it *did* snap to higher detail, i then repeated the process, but left it this time, JUST outside the range where the higher detail would be activated, thus leaving it in the lower detail state.

The right hand shot was done with the inverse procedure, i.e. i zoomed the camera in as close as it would go to the object, and then gradually pulled the camera out until it snapped lower detail, then i zoomed all the way back in, and pulled out to just before that point.

As you can see it only raised the detail when the camera got closer than 5m from the obejct (roughly)... and it only lowered the detail when the camera was pulled back *further* than 8m from the object (roughly)... this leaves about a 3-4m 'uncertain' zone.. where depending on where the camera was last, some objects will be higher detail,and some objects, will be lower detail. This is persistant, aka leaving the camera at say 5.5m will not magically pop the lower detail object, into the higher detail one, after some amount of time has passed, it literally has to be PUSHED in, say to 3m, and then pulled *BACK* out to 5.5m to get the higher detail rendering... since the 'default' camera focus in SL is about 5m away from objects, nothing is getting rendered at the higher detail level now unless you manually perform this operation on each object you look at...

While i understand some 'neutral zone' must be factored in to LOD calculations lest objects get caught 'flickering' between two detail states, the 'push and pull' of this system now, is definately causing some issues.

I do applaud the progress made in the smoothness *of* the actual tesselation, its far less obvious now than it used to be, but given the undocumented nature of this change, and the fact that it can and does result in most things people 'look at' by default in SL to be rendered in a lower detail level than they were yesterday, regardless of the LOD slider, mebbe some more tweaking is needed...

-edit-

I filed this under bug reports #306484 for the initial problem, and #306590 for the information posted here about the camera movement history having the marked effect on it

Thank you very much for the info, Michi and eltee. Merged these and I'm moving them to Current Version Feature Feedback to garner responses from other Resis in the community who've also noticed similar things.

I'm going to ask our graphics engineers for further info.

erk, hopefully this'll still get a response from the graphics guys.. I know this thread is kinda 'buried'... but if anyone else has noticed... (talking to some folks, I know they have) it'd help to post here...

No it's not buried. I'm still here.

Right. There is a "slop" factor on LOD calculations to prevent objects from flickering between LODs and lower the number of LOD switches. In 1.10.2, the overall LOD in SL has been slightly lowered for nearby objects, and lowered further for chopped down prims (like cut tori), improving performance, but creating a few undesirable artifacts. While most of these can be overcome by increasing increasing your mesh detail in preferences, there are still a few edge conditions where jagged edges keep coming back. Keep in mind, when you increase the mesh detail, prims won't take on the new detail level until their next LOD change.

Thanks for the screenshots and feedback. This information will help with future improvements.

Does this mean you're NOT going to fix it? Please see my thread: Hexagon Man in this same forum......

My sliders are ALL THE WAY to the right.

Yet my snowman looks like a first grader with scissors cut it out of construction paper.

It took my client 23 seconds to decide to change them back to spheres....

This needs to be fixed, seriously.

I can understand changing the default vaules, but changing the 'maximum' values in such a way that they simply can no longer render proper detail kind of.. undermines the point of having a slider for detail to begin with doesn't it?

This effect is *NOT* subtle... by default now *NO* rounded object appears properly when it is first looked at, in order to get the detail it was supposed to have, and that we have *SPECIFICALLY* chosen we wish to see, in our own preferences, we have to 'bounce' the camera, on every single object, zooming in, and then back out and even then the detail we used to enjoy is only fleeting, the second the camera moves away and then you move it back, its gone again.

I think one of the reasons you have not seen much 'response' to this yet is because this was 'stealthed' in, aka it was introduced with this version with absolutely no release note or other documentation on the change, almost no one even knows WHAT happened, just that 'stuff looks ugly' now.

And it really does, nothing rounded, no benches, curved objects, or other smooth shapes ever *EVER* look right when you 'casually' camera move to them with alt+click.... it absolutely *HAS* to be zoomed in, get more detail, and pulled back out to look how it looked all the time, 2 days ago, and this is not just a few objects, the vast majority of the SL world now looks, at the *HIGHEST DETAIL* we can set, is perceptably about 5-6 years older, more primitive. We went from HL2 quality shapes and curves and object structures, to HL1 quality, and because this was not only done for the 'default' settings, but for the maximum settings as well, there is nothing any of us can do to see the world we cherished, and made, just 2 days ago.

And frankly, thats pretty bad.

If the complaints of performance issues are really that bad *DEFAULT PEOPLE LOWER* but let them choose their own settings, mebbe even have a check box saying 'allow full detail' (warning: may cause slowdowns)..

but please, let us see the world we've made for ourselves, the way we have been able to see it for almost *THREE YEARS* now...

With no resident communication, no dialog, not even the courtesy of a release note, every single user of SL just had 'polygon cataracts' put into their eyes.


As to edge conditions and 'slop factor' that would actually work, if you actually corrected the slop, progressively, but thats not being done, theres a 4-5m 'space' of camera position now that has no real LOD at all, and due to the way the camera works in SL, always zooming *IN* to that 'slop' zone, from further away, *EVERY SINGLE OBJECT* in sl, ALL OF THEM, are being rendered with lower detail when you look at them, unless you specifically 'jiggle' the camera in closer and pull it back out to 'slop' the other way....

Trees are blocky and irregular, curved benches are jagged and misaligned, spheres look more like gaming dice, and because the 'lower poly' models actually have far fewer surfaces, they now 'z collide' aka overlap in the depth buffer, directly, far *FAR* more often, so flickering in objects is now significantly worse than it has ever been to date.

And this is at the highest detail level second life has, on a current gen graphics card, on a 24" screen with 1920x1200 and anti ailasing enabled.

but hey... i get on average about 1.5 more fps to enjoy all that new and great stuff in.

seriously

the whole problem would just *NOT* be a problem, if the higher levels of object detail, *PERSONALLY* and very very specifically set, higher than the defaults, were simply acknowledged as 'quality' modes, and that the fps would be a little lower, people who want quality over 'quantity' in their virtual world , could simply pick high detail, and see things the way we've been able to see them for 3+ years now.

i am *NOT* against overhauling the LOD, i think it did need to be done, the prior system often caused more rendering latency than it solved, and had many other issues...

the new one is much much more responsive, has a far smoother tesselation transition, and is just overall a better design, (barring the weird >4m wide 'sticky' border (between 5-9m from an object as shown in my first post)

the two problems that i really have here are the following:

1) this was 'stealthed' in, not only was there no discussion on it with residents/content creators, but there was not even a trace of a release note, so people were not informed enough *TO* make their opinions known...

I caught it, what actually happened, but thats cause i kinda know what to look for, i've done alot of 3D dev before. To everyone else that i've talked too, pretty much, all i've gotten back is 'ooh they changed something? i thought it was just my machine acting up'... because they don even know how to categorize what is goin on, jus stuff is generally a lil blockier now, and since 'nothing changed' in the SL client, they jus assume their machine is the problem...

2) this pretty much ignores peoples own personal preference for quality vs performance. While i understand if lag overal is a problem for SL residents, and especially new members, their initial experience should be tailored to minimize that... ok that i fully understand/support. The problem is that those of us who *want* the higher detail, smoother surfaces, better looking complex objects, were forcibly pulled back from that. The highest level of detail setting, when purposefully set by someone, generally means that that person is willing, and often very desirous of trading a little performance, for a lot of quality.

Theres a reason that games by in large do not 'load' the first time with fsaa, stuff can run slow with fsaa enabled, but that does not mean that nvidia/ati should *REMOVE* it, those who want that quality, willingly trade the performance needed, to get it, and everyone ends up happy. If there is a real support concern, the interface itself should potentially be made amenable to better educate users on that choice... perhaps a 'full detail' option which renders the full object geometry, out at least as far as the old slider used to, with a caveat (may cause slowdown) like many of the video settings have carried.

We *love* sl, it just really hurt that the same views that we have built over nearly three years, and have enjoyed every night, as of yesterday, don't look quite as good, anymore, and the ~ 1 fps more we get now, tastes alot more bitter than it should.

i dont like bein governed...detail should be allowed to be seen in its fullest, and the way this was done without being noted leaves a bad tayste in my mouth....and when will this be fixed? because this isnt right.

I think this is a poor way to impliment a graphics fix. User ignorance is more than enough to keep people from speaking. I taked to several friends about this issue before posting it, and even some of the 'old timers' thought it was just an adverse reaction they had to a recent patch, and they were embarrassed to admit that things looked worse for them.

After looking at the examples in this thread it appears that a vast amount of detail was lost in the quest for framerate. This makes no sense to me, I run on a rather low end machine and I keep my draw distance down to save framerate, but if I can't load an object properly is there even a point to making and enjoying content?




That sums up this entire thread. I mean didn't anyone consider that lowering the maximum ability for users to render objects may be a bad idea?

This is a disappointing change earlier today I kept wondering why say, the robot my friend gave me now had non sphereical wheels, unless I zoomed in tight on it. And still it didn't look right.

I can as stated by Eltee, appreciate the idea of lowering the default setting, but knowing that I can't re-attain that level of clarity I was getting is disappointing. I wish we had been made aware this was going to happen

Oh well I guess I'll always have screenshots of how pretty things used to be.

I hear several people grumble about the LOD being poor, in a manner of speaking, it gets blamed on a bug but because many people aren't GL programmers, they're not able to properly diagnose why it's happening and dismiss it as beyond their ability to explain right, they feel that if they don't submit something thorough that they'll be ignored.

Current LOD is crap compared to older LOD and it makes it difficult to build.

But if I put that on a bug report, it'll get chucked out with any other that doesn't make sense.

I have the same issue since the update. My avatar looks 'blocky' up close, unless I zoom in and out to get it to appear with the correct detail. This has only been a problem since the current update (1.10.2).

Please could Linden Labs look into this and possibly provide a solution for the next update?

Foxy ^^)

In other words, can we please have our hi-res graphics back?

Pretty please?

In case you missed it:
HEXAGON MAN!!! (yes, he's made of spheres!!!!)

A lot of my prim hair of my avatar now exposes the head underneath due to my cut torii getting blocky-fied to heck and back. I'd not mind that so much if there was a way to get the old level of detail back. Rrrgh.

My god! I thought things were supposed to improve with time, not get worse!

Ahh I see why some of my hair seems to show the head prim of my Lusk head. Would be nice to have the old rendering system back.

Yeah, this has been pretty disappointing... I pride myself on the elaborate attachments I wear, and having them flicker and warp around is embarrassing and depressing. I'm really eager to see this get fixed, and I'm sure it will be, because I know LL must want to satiate these concerns.

I've Definitely noticed this as well. With my sliders all the way to the right at medium range nearly everything is of reduced visual quality, Benches that are supposed to be round look like octagons from a distance of 5 meters. Its extremely disappointing that this change was undocumented too. I would greatly appreciate it if LL strived to document all of the changes in new clients. This not only lets us file better bug reports and the such, but also allows us to see what LL is currently working on, and shows us that you ARE doing things.

Honestly though I do believe this patch is a major step backard for the LOD change alone. It really does affect the visual quality of SL in a massively detrimental way.

Please at the very least allow a graphics option to switch between the old LOD and the new LOD... The code is already there, just a switch please?

New features!

Please fix this! I have an old card (soon to be upgraded) and have a framerate that many people would consider a snails pace. Still, I turn my sliders all the way up and don't bitch about performance because graphics are that important to me. I'm willing to sacrifice graphics for great gameplay, but since SL isn't a game, an immersive and graphically pleasant 3d experience is something I need to really enjoy it fully.

Some trees just look bizarre and just now I was walking across a bridge and it started flickering horribly, the textures went nuts and then I fell right through it!

The consensus here is that we hate this change and want it set back the way it was.

My new stage now looks like poo, it's a dissapointment that we weren't notified of the changes. Please bring back the old LOD, what's the point of having uber high frame rates if the world looks like it was crafted in the '80s? Bring back PI! Viva 3.14!

I have spent months building, everyday, hours on end. I am sitting here staring at my castle not rezzing. If I had known I couldn't build spheres, toruses, and cylinders, I would have:
1) built everything with hundreds of temp-on-rez blocks,
2) gone to LL with a big stick and a megaphone.

I have 8 turrets on the castle. From a distance, every single one of the 30-50 cylinder prims in each turret is facing a different direction...

My Castle is not a Jigsaw Puzzle

And then while I sat there staring, my prims that i was editing began disappearing...

My Castle is not a Jigsaw Puzzle 2

Can we call in all the king's horses and all the king's men to work on this please?


***** EDIT *****



PI. It's not just for breakfast anymore... or is that... it's not just 3.14 anymore?