First Land: Do's and Do-not's

If only you could control those dumb low prices that pop up because of new people like myself, and force everyone to buy land for WAY too much. I mean, why wait for deals to pop up in find if everyone uniformily sells way too high and all the new land owners overprice as well.

If only.

I think it is appalling to use the word "unethical" to describe the practice of purchasing first land for an alt account.

NOWHERE has Linden stated that this is not allowed, illegal, unethical, prohibited, or any such description. LL has had ample opportunity to make such a statement and they have not. For example, these two blunt requests for a specific pronouncement in the hotline:

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The first one went completely unanswered, the second one recieved an explanation of why the first land program was created. LL was asked TWICE (probably more if you go back) in the hotline "is it illegal to buy first land with an alt account", and both times they did *NOT* say no!

Furthermore, there are thousands of residents with alt accounts, and it is a very common practice for alt accounts buy first land. (If it were illegal, this fact alone would not make it legal. It isn't the reason for the first land program. That is NOT the same thing as "illegal" or even "improper".)

It is (a) *NOT* illegal, and (b) COMMON PRACTICE. Characterizing such a thing as "unethical" based on the fact that it wasn't the purpose of the program is wrong.

If somebody can point me to where LL officially states that buying first land for an alt account is not allowed, I will retract the above. If LL says it is not allowed, then it is not allowed.

I would be the first to agree that doing something that is "not allowed", even though the UI lets you do it, IS unethical. That is NOT the case with first land and alt accounts.

So stop with all the finger pointing.

Buster

I'm responding to you assuming you are being sarcastic. If you are not, I'm sorry.

Low prices don't hurt anyone including land barons. How do you think land barons make a profit? People for one reason or another try to sell lower than what others will pay. I think you will find that many times that profit can be as small as 10%(not counting teir fees). If you got rid of first land, land prices would most likely be higher, but profits would most likely not change. Most of my big profits come from non-firstland being sold cheap to avoid a teir fee. Newbies aren't what make me money, the way teir fees work is the biggest reason I can make money. Most people at least take the 5 minutes it takes to know the minimum price they should ask for anyway.

There is quite a bit of land way cheaper than than the minimum bid in auctions every single day in Find. My average peice of land normally sells for something close to the minimum bid price in auctions. Every time it starts to go higher, people start buying in auctions like crazy. I see no evidence that land is way overpriced. Keep in mind that what you don't value, many other people do.

Buster,

Did you read the article in the latest Metaverse Messenger?

http://www.metaversemessenger.com/PDF/MM-2005-10-11.pdf

My position stands as is. I reiterate that the practice is unethical.

Well, you know what, I think that before a person can be accused of doing something unethical, they have to first have had KNOWLEDGE that whatever they did was supposedly WRONG.

Which I did not, or I would have never mentioned it in passing.

It's like going to some society tea party and you make the mistake of starting to eat before they recite their Pledge of Undying Friendship or something. Maybe you made a MISTAKE, not knowing you were supposed to wait, but I would hardly accuse you of being UNETHICAL for not waiting.

And I still feel if they consider it is crime, they oughta dang well say so, on the materials you are encountering when you sign up for your second account.

coco

I just started, no alt here, and sold my First Land for 3,000...and not to Anshe.

Now granted I got lucky and a bunch of people were surrounding me and wanted to join my plot with theirs so there was a reason to get that much.

Was that too much? *shrugs* They came to me and made an offer, I countered and they accepted.

Anyone can compete with Anshe by buying their own island and offering the land for sale at a lower price...right? Now granted Anshe might just have the resources to buy it all up and raise the price but then just go out and buy another island and another and another. eventually Anshe can't afford to buy any more and the market won't bear her prices. Then you can sell yours for cheaper forcing her to lower her price.

If that doesn't seem to work for you then I submit that Anshe is already selling at a price the market will bear...and of that I see absolutely NO problem since it is all of us that agree to it when we purchase her land.

Anyone here really WANT LL-subsidized land ownership? That was rhetorical actually...I'm sure there are some. I don't though. I'd like to see SL become more integrated with RL such that a persons time and effort are as valuable in SL as in RL. Anshe has succeeded in this apparently...I only hope it serves as inspiration for the rest of us to find a way to make our SL time as valuable as our RL time from a business perspective. There ARE ways to do it.

Poor Anshe, she tries to do good, then this happens.

April

I don't even understand why this debate keeps popping up.
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This debate appeared in this thread, April, because you introduced it in your first post. Whatever you think, people will do as they please until they are categorically told by LL that it is against the TOS.

As LL introduce new land according to the number of new premium accounts, there should be sufficient for all.

I have not personally done this but have no problem with those who do.

Alexa

Anshe presented the guidelines as what she and Guin thought were appropriate guidelines, and asked for input. That doesn't just mean "oh the guidelines are perfect". April raised the issue that both Jeska and Robin have clearly stated the program is intented for people who have never owned land before as a way to help them, not as a way for each premium account to get land. Robin further went on to say their enforcement efforts are focused on scamming of first land for profit, because that is more serious, but that does not give tacit approval to using first land to gain another piece of land for your alt. It means they are putting their limited resources where most appropriate.

Why is it so hard to understand that this was a program created for newbies that have never owned land before? The Lindens have stated it, it is stated in the description of the program, and it has been discussed over and over. Is it some big horrible thing? No, scamming of it just to make money off of it is far worse. However, again, it comes down to respecting why the program was created. Any guidelines about first land that do not present that it is a program for new players only are incomplete, and April was perfectly valid in raising the issue.

No Anshe introduced it in the initial post. She suggested that people get alts and get First Land.

Did you read the post:



I am sorry you have no problem with it. I think this is something we should all work towards trying to prevent. First Land should be available for new users. Having new users not being able to get First Land because savvy older users are able to get better deals because they know how to use the system is jut not right. I can't understand why people can't see this.

If I am a new user and I am buying my First Land as a new user or first time buyer. I shouldn't have to compete with someone who has already had the advantages of buying First Land. I shouldn't have to keep searching for new Land because someone else has already bought some with their alt. It is not fair.

Yes when LL opens up First Land, they open up an equivalent amount for First Land Buyers. One would think they open up suffecient amounts for "First Land Buyers". Perhaps they keep in to account the ones that are Alts and do not provide for them. At the same time, they are not expending extra resources to police these alt abusers. If they did, it would take away from other efforts. Besides, there are some instances where the same household, same card holders are indeed family/husband/roommates. So if LL spent more time policing this effort, legitamate First Land Buyer in this situation will have to take an extra step to prove their status.

If you think I am wrong, that fine, but why do you think I am doing this? Because I am getting nothing out of this except trying to protect real First Land Buyers. Fault me for this? I can't see why? I am trying to do some good. Sorry if that offends anyone.

/me hugs Coco

I understand you didn't understand.

But can we move on from this point?

Can you join us now and move on and at least agree that is a good idea to save First Land for First time buyers?

We can agree to absolve those in the past and agree to not do it anymore.

No one is trying to be MEAN. We are trying to do some good.

We are talking about future guidelines now, Cocoanut, and you are fully aware of what the purpose is, what the position is of the Lindens, and why people object to it. Guidelines that go against that make no sense. It is not part of a premium account features- it is not included in the description of a premium account, it is included in the land section in general as what first time buyers who have never owned land

How you can justify knowingly going against the purpose of the program is beyond me. I concur that you were unaware of it in the past, but you aren't now. It is this simple: if you have never owned land, the First Land program helps you to get into owning land without much risk, and at a low cost. There is a limited amount of First Land at any given time - it is for players new to SL or new to owning land.

Why should a new player have to wait to get land because someone who already own land makes an alt and double dips? It is very cleary wrong. You are normally someone who is so often about fairness and a level playing field for everyone, so your stubbornness on this point surprises me. This is no longer about what you didn't know - it is about what you now know, and continue to persist in saying.

Question:

Is first land bound by the number of alternate accounts one has, or by the number of credit cards?


I ask because it's pretty clear which it should be. And, if bound by credit cards, "double dipping" quickly becomes impractical and limited per resident.

While I can't agree with the ethical choice of using an alt to snatch first land, from a business perspective it would be stupid not to. This is a problem, possibly attributed to subsidizing land in the first place when the system cannot make clear identity distinctions.



I know when I bought my 512m before the first land program, it wasn't that expensive compared to the stipend of a premium account (which is required to own land, anyway).

I would be more in favor of doing away with First Land entirely, replacing its value with consumer/land education programs, more public building spaces, and more market-price sims away from the auction block (with clear warning and periodic release, so as not to be scooped up immediately by a few people for resale).

So what do you want me to do, go back and make myself know it then?

Or what?

And anyway, I'm not nearly so certain as you are that I DO know it now, despite what was in the Metaverse Messenger.

coco

P.S. I WASN'T DOING ANY DAMN DOUBLE-DIPPING or ANY sort of ALT ABUSE or any sort of EXPLOIT, EITHER!!! End of story!!!

P.S. I ALREADY did waiting as a new player, and I waited again on the second premium account! So nobody "waited" any longer than I did on either account!!!

Thank you, April, for understanding where I was coming from.

But no, I can't really agree with you now; I haven't really got to the end of this issue in my thinking, though I keep trying to NOT think or talk about it, cause I just get so mad. I just want to forget it.

But I don't think we can at all get into any sort of "campaign" or whatever to get people to not buy First Land with their alts, for a number of reasons:

1. People don't read the forums anyway.

2. Lots of people are going to read the materials, as I did, as that they pertain to each new account, since it says "new player," but doesn't ANYWHERE say, "and we don't mean alts."

3. Even if we did such a campaign, all we would get were some people who refrained from doing it and a lot of people who went ahead and did it - since it is, after all, not illegal, and it doesn't give any indication anywhere that each new account CAN'T get first land - and the people who did it will either be smart enough to know it's a no-no and refrain from saying here that they did it, or they will mention that they did it, as I did, and come in for a whole lot of abuse just for playing the game!

And I don't think it is GOOD to give people a lot of grief just for doing what is PERFECTLY OKAY in ANY OTHER GAME and DOESN'T say you can't do here. Buy a new account, get the stuff on that new account. Anyway, I already did it, and oodles of other people have done it and are doing it and will do it in the future, without any knowledge that it is supposed to be wrong, or even with the knowledge, so why should just a few people who happen to read the forums have to abstain? Besides, everyone knows they release First Land to meet the demand of all new Premium accounts.

And as a smaller point, we could take this whole line of thinking further, couldn't we? "You already have one account, so give away your stipend and your free 512 tier." I never bought the idea, anyway, that my first account was so rich that the second one - which we are paying FULL PRICE FOR - somehow didn't deserve what comes with that account.

4. The Lindens themselves don't even have their act together on this one anyway. Because since this came up, I have been told by people on the game - people I don't know - that it is perfectly okay to do it. And as I mentioned before, one guy even checked with a Linden before getting his and his wife's five accounts together to get land next to each other.

5. The Lindens are the ones who need to make this clear if they really want it this way. Making it clear is as simple as adding the sentence, "Your alts don't count - please don't use alts to get first land." That's VERY easy to do. Maybe they have a reason not to, I don't know.

In addition, I'd like to say if the "original intention" was to give impoverished new residents some land they can afford, then yes, it does that - they can get new land right away (or fairly right away), which helps keep many of them in the game.

But for people and their alts, it is most likely a case of new players getting one piece of land, then wanting one CONTIGUOUS to their existing piece, and wanting the extra stipend more that comes with the new premium account. That stipend and that contiguous land is much more important than the 2.5k saved by buying the land as "first." That helps keep some of THOSE people in the game, and that's important, too.

People with lots of money probably wouldn't be caught dead living in new First Land territory anyway. They sure wouldn't be caught dead living in mine! They are buying prime real estate, or buying whole private islands.

coco

Coco. That is justification for gaming the system. When land was scarce, you were quick to criticize "alts" being used to buy land. The excuse, create-buy-delete NEVER was an issue then. It became and excuse after the fact.

That is the issue.

Buying land with alts to join other lots is done all the time. It is doubtful anyone would care had you not spoken out so strongly against the practice in the first place.

Excuses and enforcement are two different things, you can't have it both ways.

Coco, we are not going to agree on this. So you do as you feel comfortable and I will continue to campaign that real First Land buyers should not have to compete with savvy already Land Buyers.

I will continue to ask other like minded individual to help educate others and ask that they not buy First Land if they already have First Land.

Works for me, April!

coco

At least respond to what I said, Cocoanut. I said repeatedly this is about moving forward. That is what this thread is about, even if you want to make it into something else. I am not shouting at you, so do be so kind as to respond rationally.

I'm not going to be just real rational about this. Now I'm gonna go back to forgetting about it.

coco

I am still making my way through this thread but wanted to put forth a humble thank you to everyone who is participating in it. I joined sl the beginning of this week and am spending the majority of my new sl trying to learn both by in world interactions and reading the multitude of posts in this forum and information elsewere. While I am not a naturally *business woman* minded person by nature (some just have that nack) I am finding these kinds of discussions incredibly valuable. By nature I tend to get really excited and leap before I research. I am making a consertive effort in sl to get knowledgeble before I take any leaps. As soon as I am comfortable that I am going not going to put any more boxes on my body and have that aspect down, I will delve futher into the technical aspect of this game. I want you all to know just how much this kind of discussion helps us newbies (well, at least me). While I find a lot of this discussion confusing, I do get the gist of it and as we all know, and as I teach my own children, knowlege is power. It's the differences of opinions that causes people to think and research and in this game, I feel that is imprtant. So from lil ol newbie me, THANK YOU ALL!