Has someone hacked the land for sale protocol?
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
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12-02-2005 15:36
For example, if you check http://roam.wetikon.net/?query=blazeyou get entries such as: From: someone Trolly Depot Next to sidewalk, great for a small shop! Owned by blaze Spinnaker Boardman (160, 15  - 80 sq. m. - Mar 23, 2005 - Details - Snapshots The information " Next to sidewalk, great for a small shop!" there can not be gleaned, except via automating the client / hacking the protocol / some particular hack against SecondLife or the SecondLife website. If someone knows otherwise, please let me know.. I'd definitely be curious. If they have done this, then this gives them significant advantage in the land trading game as they can determine which parcels are set at values below market. Interesting, it so happens, that the developer of roam.wetikon.net is also the owner of slland.com and is a very significant player in the land trading economy of SecondLife.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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12-02-2005 15:39
HOLY FUCK - let me get out my tin foil hat right now!
heres a conspiracy theory for you:
This was just on the Blog of Hasturs cousin.. and folks are speculating if the blaze account was bought by them.....
hmmmmmm... (adjusts hat)
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blaze Spinnaker
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Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
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12-02-2005 15:41
Hey Siggy, if you have another conclusion I'm all ears.
If you had access to all the parcel data and you spent significant time in the land trading market, why would you avoid not using your advantage?
I guess it could because you're a 'nice guy' but really, if you're a nice guy, then pumping up land prices by flipping them isn't exactly mother theresa.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Siggy Romulus
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Join date: 22 Sep 2003
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12-02-2005 15:42
Heres one:
Your trolling for dhrama like usual?
How close is that?
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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blaze Spinnaker
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Join date: 12 Aug 2004
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12-02-2005 15:43
Not at all.
Do you think it's fair that someone has a significant advantage over everyone else?
If you read the TOS you'll find that you're not allowed to reverse engineer SecondLife.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
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12-02-2005 15:51
From: blaze Spinnaker Not at all.
Do you think it's fair that someone has a significant advantage over everyone else?
If you read the TOS you'll find that you're not allowed to reverse engineer SecondLife. Can you back up your accusation with proof?
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
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12-02-2005 15:53
From: Cory Edo Can you back up your accusation with proof? Well it's more question than an accusation, but really, if LSL doesn't expose an api to get this information, that means they had to get it some other way. I think I provided an exhaustive list above.. I suppose the other possibility is that Lindens are providing someone with the land data.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
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12-02-2005 15:56
Uh, ever heard of manual data entry?
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blaze Spinnaker
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Join date: 12 Aug 2004
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12-02-2005 15:57
Do you really think that someone would manually cut/paste all that data when it probably completely changes ever few weeks or so?
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
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12-02-2005 16:10
From: blaze Spinnaker Well it's more question than an accusation, but really, if LSL doesn't expose an api to get this information, that means they had to get it some other way.
I think I provided an exhaustive list above.. I suppose the other possibility is that Lindens are providing someone with the land data. A question would be "How are they getting this data?" An accusation is "If you read the TOS you'll find that you're not allowed to reverse engineer SecondLife." You're assuming right out of the box that they're doing something against the TOS, like hacking the client. There are a number of people desperately interested in finding out how slland.com gets all its info so quickly and keeps it updated. A good portion of those interested want to know how he does it so they can do it themselves. In my opinion, its a trade secret and he doesn't owe it to anyone to disclose how he managed to pull it off. If it concerns you so, I suggest a Hotline post asking them to investigate - but I certainly don't think he or LL owes anybody any answers past "its not against the TOS".
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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12-02-2005 16:17
I think Rathe answered all these questions when Prok accused him of the same thing scant days ago...
I stand by my original answer:
You know this, you're trying to stir up drama like you always do... constantly.
yes - I've read the TOS - yes, I've seen that - now good sir - either some proof to back up your claim (and yes it is a claim, not a question) or I'll just throw this in the big tub o 'blaze trolls for this month...
Siggy.
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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blaze Spinnaker
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Join date: 12 Aug 2004
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12-02-2005 16:24
Hmm, ok, I have proof, considering the really annoying threats against my good pal Prokofy.
The developer sent me a snapshot of the c protocol code that he wrote.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
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12-02-2005 17:08
Heck: /120/87/44762/3.html#post475944From: Rathe Underthorn
Quote:
Originally Posted by blaze Spinnaker
Now, extra bonus points to the first person that helps me decode the protocol stream.
Google ethereal to help start.
L$499,999 and it's yours.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Robert Semple
Registered User
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 8
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12-02-2005 17:45
Manual insertion is seriously not a reasonable option for data entry here. Roam has 21,445 places indexed. If we assume that a skilled individual can do one parcel a minute, it'd take about 15 days of non-stop work to get to where Roam is right now. Anyone feel like volunteering for this job?  Otherwise, a fairly easy way would be to sniff incoming packets and capture name/desc/location while 1) searching for places or 2) cruising across sims in lines and grids. If it's a concern, remember that packet sniffing to gather data and piping it into a database is not prohibited in the TOS. Neither is reverse engineering, if done within the legal limits of the law. In fact, the creators of Roam does have a good case for the legal right to reverse engineering, since it seems to comply both with the TOS and the DMCA! Note that the TOS (Section 4.1) it says (emphasis mine): From: TOS you may not modify, adapt, reverse engineer (except as otherwise permitted by applicable law), decompile or attempt to discover the source code of the Linden Software, or create any derivative works of the Linden Software or the Service, or otherwise use the Linden Software except as expressly provided in this Agreement. In Title 17 of the US Copyright code, there exists the exception for individuals to reverse engineer copyrighted software for the purposes of interoperability. And I quote again: From: Title 17, 1201 (f)(1) ...a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title. So, blaze, I'm assuming that you used the word "hack" to mean "a clever, perhaps ingenious fix to the problem of LSL's own limitations" and not to stir up controversy. If so, thanks for bringing up this nifty trick |
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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12-02-2005 17:46
Now lets put that in context... that thread is about avatar keys
But you know this - you replied to that thread yourself.
nice try.... but try again....
Some proof please, that the CLIENT has been HACKED, or that someone has attempted to reverse engineer the client....
Not a single ambigous quote taken out of context...
...My opinion thus far hasn't been changed - you are trolling.
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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Siggy Romulus
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Join date: 22 Sep 2003
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12-02-2005 17:46
From: blaze Spinnaker Hmm, ok, I have proof, considering the really annoying threats against my good pal Prokofy.
The developer sent me a snapshot of the c protocol code that he wrote. also please show where there are threats to your 'good pal' not helping here blaze...
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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12-02-2005 17:49
To really be on topic - lets answer the question the title in the thread sets down:
No.
Everyone happy now? we can go back to our scheduled complaints about why the L$ is dropping and other such uninteresting shite.
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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blaze Spinnaker
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Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
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12-02-2005 17:51
From: Robert Semple So, blaze, I'm assuming that you used the word "hack" to mean "a clever, perhaps ingenious fix to the problem of LSL's own limitations" and not to stir up controversy. If so, thanks for bringing up this nifty trick The former, definitely!
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
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12-02-2005 17:56
From: blaze Spinnaker The former, definitely! Better retract your post blaze. You have made baseless accusations about someone. On second thought, let it stand. Have a nice life. |
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Jeska Linden
Administrator
Join date: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 2,388
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12-02-2005 18:01
Just wanted to remind everyone to please refrain from personal attacks in the SL Forums.
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Robert Semple
Registered User
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 8
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12-02-2005 18:07
From: Siggy Romulus To really be on topic - lets answer the question the title in the thread sets down:
No. A follow-up, since blaze got me thinking: "Well, how come someone hasn't yet?" The land info tools within LSL are seriously lagging behind the tools available to the client. In LSL, I can't get: - The Parcel Name - The Parcel Description - The Parcel SIZE! The project I'm working on needs all three of these -- currently I'm having the user enter them, but it's a waste of time IMHO. I've got a vote proposal for llGetParcelName/Desc, but it's barely pushing 20 votes. While I'd really prefer to be able to get an LSL function, grabbing the data from a packet would be the next best thing. Only downside is that *I* have to be the one going to the parcel and gathering the data, rather than having it all done in-world. Heh, the more I think about it, the more it really is a "hackish" way of fixing the problem |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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12-02-2005 18:10
From: Jeska Linden Just wanted to remind everyone to please refrain from personal attacks in the SL Forums. This entire thread is a personal attack, and the fact that you left it open is really sad.
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Siggy Romulus
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Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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12-02-2005 18:13
From: Robert Semple A follow-up, since blaze got me thinking: "Well, how come someone hasn't yet?" The land info tools within LSL are seriously lagging behind the tools available to the client. In LSL, I can't get: - The Parcel Name - The Parcel Description - The Parcel SIZE! The project I'm working on needs all three of these -- currently I'm having the user enter them, but it's a waste of time IMHO. I've got a vote proposal for llGetParcelName/Desc, but it's barely pushing 20 votes. While I'd really prefer to be able to get an LSL function, grabbing the data from a packet would be the next best thing. Only downside is that *I* have to be the one going to the parcel and gathering the data, rather than having it all done in-world. Heh, the more I think about it, the more it really is a "hackish" way of fixing the problem Yeah I'd like those functions too - I'll probably go vote on that proposal...
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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Siggy Romulus
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Join date: 22 Sep 2003
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12-02-2005 18:15
Wheres the personal attacks?
I can't see any.. I said he was trolling, but thats not an atack - thats the truth of the matter - I notice how he deftly avoids providing proof of his claims though.
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals. From: Jesse Linden I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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12-02-2005 18:17
From: Cristiano Midnight This entire thread is a personal attack, and the fact that you left it open is really sad. Agree, 100%. I was about to AR it, then I saw Jeska had already been in here. I think the question should now become; why is LL so lax on people who stir shit non-stop? I have dealt with 10 or 12 other developers, most of whom wouldn't put up with half the shit this troll and his pseudo-messianic mentor do, 3rd party site or not. See, Maxis would have shit canned them both long ago. So WTF LL? The worst part of the whole thing is that these perma-trolls know that LL is lax, and they exploit that fact.
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