What a cocked up mess.
And for Pete's sake, can people please make their rants readable?
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Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
![]() Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
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05-03-2006 09:32
What a cocked up mess.
And for Pete's sake, can people please make their rants readable? _____________________
Surreal
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nimrod Yaffle
Cavemen are people too...
![]() Join date: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,146
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05-03-2006 09:51
Which makes it all the more funny that they've stolen from LL and then threaten to press charges when they're made to give back the stolen goods. This is why I read the forums. You never know what those crazy kids will do next. I think posting with the 7+ alts, then playing dumb when confronted was the best part. ![]() _____________________
"People can cry much easier than they can change."
-James Baldwin |
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
![]() Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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05-03-2006 09:54
The alts are the best.
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Dana Bergson
Registered User
![]() Join date: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 561
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05-03-2006 10:34
Ain't it funny, how many residents, most of them only a few weeks or days old, are posting for the first time on the forums only to defend the legality of this dubious "auctions"? Many of them even use the same style of language.
![]() As I have already said in some other thread on this topic: please stop the nitpicking about the interpretation of some sentences on the auctions pages. Of course you can haggle for days what the meaning of a certain word or phrase might be. It is very obvious, though, that what happened was not a proper auction in the way the Lindens set up the rules. Land auctions have allways been (and are clearly intended to be) public auctions. Everything that is relevant to the proceedings is described clearly on the web page. Every resident with a clean record can take part in them. There are no hidden clues or puzzles to solve. That is what the Lindens intend to do with the auctions - because it guarantees the highest prices. ![]() A software error has lead to a situation, where one could use the system to start a kind of bidding in a closed circle of people; probably only one at first and then some others, who heard about the exploit. That's not a public auction anymore. |
Darkness Anubis
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,628
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05-03-2006 12:00
I don't know what concrete evidence you have access to, but I have a detailed description of exactly what they did, given to me a couple of days before any of this was an issue. A description that I have no reason to doubt. It wasn't a trick at all, but the practice of due diligence. And how many of you have considered what LL might have to gain by saying they used an exploit, rather than admitting their own liability in this? Continued confidence in a land auction system which brings in not inconsiderable amounts of income... not to mention the pretext to take back land that, by Linden Lab's own auction rules, they had a contractual obligation to hand over to the highest bidder, so they can auction it again, while keeping what the highest bidders had already paid. Further, these bidders are being publicly reviled by people who know nothing about what happened other than they managed to get a bargain. Unless you have concrete evidence to back up your claims, then you're being libelous, which if I recall would constitute a violation of section 5.1 of the Terms of Service. So, my advice would be to stop throwing around accusations at least until the investigation is complete. I, for my part, will be saying nothing more. Fact the pages for auctions that were accessed were not yet hyperlinked into the regular auction pages. Therefore were at that point private pages. Fact the method by which access to these pages was achieved was detailed by the person that did it in posts in either this thread or another one in this forum. This method involved finding the auction number for plots not yet listed in the regular auction page and manually editing the URL with the auction number to access private pages. This according to coursework I have taken in college, this is defined an exploit/backdoor/trick/hack. None of this is in any way a personal attack on either the people that did this or you for disagreeing with me. I have been extremely careful to not be libelous. I have stated facts as I understand them nothing more. I could care less who gets what bargain as long as it is obtained by legal means. I leave it to LL to explain their own position on it. |
Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
![]() Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
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05-03-2006 12:21
The alts are the best. I like the legal threats as well. Particularly the ones against LL. |
nimrod Yaffle
Cavemen are people too...
![]() Join date: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,146
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05-03-2006 14:44
I found their old PG lot for sale at 3.7/m, there are no members in the group that owns it, nor officers, so I guess LL is selling it.
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"People can cry much easier than they can change."
-James Baldwin |
Paulismyname Bunin
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 243
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05-04-2006 04:31
Ain't it funny, how many residents, most of them only a few weeks or days old, are posting for the first time on the forums only to defend the legality of this dubious "auctions"? Many of them even use the same style of language. ![]() As I have already said in some other thread on this topic: please stop the nitpicking about the interpretation of some sentences on the auctions pages. Of course you can haggle for days what the meaning of a certain word or phrase might be. It is very obvious, though, that what happened was not a proper auction in the way the Lindens set up the rules. Land auctions have allways been (and are clearly intended to be) public auctions. Everything that is relevant to the proceedings is described clearly on the web page. Every resident with a clean record can take part in them. There are no hidden clues or puzzles to solve. That is what the Lindens intend to do with the auctions - because it guarantees the highest prices. ![]() A software error has lead to a situation, where one could use the system to start a kind of bidding in a closed circle of people; probably only one at first and then some others, who heard about the exploit. That's not a public auction anymore. Dana, I have quoted your post in full because I would appeciate a view from you on this point. A little while ago (a few months) a stock trader based in Japan sold by mistake tens of thousands of shares in a major Japan Plc. The sale was large enough to cause the Nicki Dow to fall (short term) by a significant amount. That clearly impacted around the world that day as (because I am sure you know) all market relate to one another short term. It is called "a fat finger mistake" Now the Japan FSA refused to undo that deal as the follow on trades became more and more complex to unravel. In essence that deal although wrong had to stand. It cost those market makers an entire years profit by the way. Now here in Second Life my own view is quite simple. If it was a deliberate hack then the person that caused it deserves trouble but second or third party deals (unconnected) should be allowed to stand. Irf it was a Linden error then they (Linden) should accept the loss and write it off/claim against any insurance they have What is your view? |
Dana Bergson
Registered User
![]() Join date: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 561
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05-04-2006 05:11
What is your view? ![]() What happened in this case in SL is quite different: The auction system contained an error, a software bug, which allowed residents to circumvent the whole system of a public auction. It was not only an error not to set a starting price. This auction was not public anymore but happening in a closed circle. It is so obvious that this was never intended by LL to do "auctions" like that, that I am really wondering how all the nitpicking about a certain word here or there on the SL website is possible. ![]() Still, even though I don't know any details about it, I was surprised that there was an attempt to unravel the deal at all. Exactly because the follow on trades: Now the Japan FSA refused to undo that deal as the follow on trades became more and more complex to unravel. Now here in Second Life my own view is quite simple. If it was a deliberate hack then the person that caused it deserves trouble but second or third party deals (unconnected) should be allowed to stand. If it was a Linden error then they (Linden) should accept the loss and write it off/claim against any insurance they have. It is hard to estimate this damage or compensate for it. (Many would protest against such a compensation towards the "ebil land barons" anyway.) So ... I don't see a simple solution in accepting the losses. It is a very complicated isssue. I am afraid, there is no easy solution available which might be seen as "fair". *sighs* |
MarcWoebegone Au
Registered User
Join date: 4 May 2006
Posts: 4
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Kaz, this is not a scandal. These auctions were explained by Torley Linden in 4.06
05-04-2006 05:46
In a threadd titled "Auction price bug?" Torely Linden kindly wrote:
04-13-2006, 11:50 PM #2 Torley Linden Watermelinden Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: more info @ WWW.TORLEY.COM Posts: 12,683 Heyo [name removed to protect the innocen], thanks to Ryan Linden, I found out what happened here: those auctions went up for 48 hours but were not bid on. Usually they come up with a "bid now" link. The auction is does not start until that link is clicked and a first bid made. All should be good now, if you see more like this please holler! " He was essentially told to go ahead and bid on them, and how to do it. So he does it, others do it, and then they get banned. How's that a scandal by any player? MarcWoebegone Au |
MarcWoebegone Au
Registered User
Join date: 4 May 2006
Posts: 4
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and here's another instance.....
05-04-2006 05:49
Take a look at the land at Epione 9, 37, 73 sannyland..... Never went purple, never showed up on auction page, and then was suddenly sold, and new owner other than Linden. The new owner was spoken to and he siad he got it at the auction, but it never went public.
What do you make of that? What wasn't that person banned? MarcWoebegone Au |
Paulismyname Bunin
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 243
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05-04-2006 05:53
Thanks Dana, that is clearer to me now. As usual you make some sense
From my view I am still only playing around with Second Life as a hobby (albeit with economic potential) but I do entirely understand how it is for established business here. Anshe has taught me that with her successful Dreamland business. I can quite see how this type of thing can undermine confidence for big landowners, as you rightly say buying Sims for $L1 etc is not good for the current system. As you say if somebody exploited a bug, then imho that is a hack, not a genuine error by Linden, although the action of buying may or may not be malicious As for genuine third party transactions that one is hard too, after all that begs the question of offered price vis-à-vis some rumours flying around of fore knowledge |
kerunix Flan
Registered User
Join date: 3 Sep 2005
Posts: 393
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05-04-2006 05:56
Some players in the food chain might have made their purchases "in good faith". I don't know how LL will handle that. I think they all bought "in good faith". I had an offer to buy one of thoses sims and he *never* said that they paid them 1US$ or even less than 1000US$ (and yes, i talked about the price of auctioned sim). |