My estate land was stolen!! Yes, STOLEN!

That's funny. You never had any land in SL stolen from you either, really.

Yes, that's true. There have been many suggestions made to LL there should be rating systems for businesses. Most common is the ebay-style idea of feedback. This would help consumers make better choices and prevent a few problems such as these.

While it is certainly true that an estate owner has the ability to reclaim any parcel on her estate, this is
(1) true with Linden Lab, too, like you said it yourself
(2) is nothing new and has been possible for as long as land is sold on private estates

I don't know, what the future brings, but in the past there have been very few cases, where land was reclaimed without an agreement between estate owner and land owner. (I am very much certain most have surfaced in the forums.) The reason is simple: as soon as it is known that you do something like that "on a whim" you are dead in the market.

I am willing to take a bet that there has been significantly more land reclaimed by Linden Lab than by estate owners - even taking into account the relationship between mainland and private estates area-wise. Don't get me wrong: the reason for reclaiming land by Governor Linden is usually defaulted payments and I don't blame Linden Lab for reclaiming land after the owner stops paying for it.

theirs this other issue too...

to prove a point, I bought estate land. The covenant told me I had 24-48 hours to pay via paypal. Well 2 hours later the land was reverted and no L$100 refund. The refund I didnt except because in the fine print of the covenant it specifically stated the L$100 was to "reserve" the parcel and is non-refundable.

No problem there, however the covenant said I could not build until I setup payment arrangements. Well I had to test that, so I returned the items, and built something and the system let me (this is more than likely why the land reverted after 2 hours and not 24-48 hours)

Its not the end users fault the system lets them do things the covenant says they cant... so until estate owners start to voice opinions on the systems shortfalls, these things will continue.

I did my part by pushing the vote prop for a selectable option for the estate listings, but I dont own an estate, so I dont know what features they want (aside from a few here and there i've read posts about)

Dont just argue about whats wrong with the system, create a vote proposal

And THIS is why I still live on Adam and Nexus's land, after, what, a year and a half? However long they've been in the business!

coco

I am not sure if you really "appreciate" this way - which is not "optimistic" in my opinion but just the way it is. Looking at Second Life as it is now it is obvious that private estates will make up most of SL in the near future.

Please believe me, when I say, that I really understand your opinion and certainly understand that you and most other residents will disagree with my point of view.

Still, if you take one step back ... Isn't it all a matter of "trust" in the end? All the differences you mention as being essential for the differentiation between private estates and mainland are nothing written in stone.
You describe - without judging - the mainland as being more "permanent" in a way. No changes in the landscape etc. But this is just an expectation that you build on your experiences from the past.

I am not saying that Linden Lab will change any of these rules (which constitute a kind of unwritten Covenant), but they could so at any time. Please have a look in the TOS. Contrary to the Covenants on private estates Governor Linden does not even promise these constants. And the mainland sims have ALL CAPACITY to be reconfigured and have their properties changed at the whim of many Linden Lab employees. It just isn't happening. "Always" and "Never" are such strong words.

We simply assume that all this is unchangeable. So the assumption that mainland will stay as it is with its current (unwritten) Covenant is ... just an assumption. Similar assumptions have proven wrong in the past with many other "constants" of Second Life.

Don't get me wrong. I have no reason not to trust Linden Lab. We are doing substantial business with them. I am nearly always very satisfied and receive great customer service! Additionally: Governor Lindens land is fine land with sometimes terrific terraforming. It is very good solution currently for people looking for a maximum of freedom and not afraid of what the neighbors will do with their maximum of freedom.

But I just want to point out, that it all boils down to the question of trust; with Linden Lab/Governor Linden or any other estate owner.

Yes, for Mainland you have to trust Linden Labs....

For Estate you have to trust Linden labs AND the estate owner

There is no Estate land without Linden Labs.

alright i took a look at the sim looks as if the owners of it where testing it or something cause when i took a look there i saw that it didnt say when the estate covant was updated but there where changes to the convanent from when the screenshot was taken but my best bet would be to abuse report it to LL if it was a problem like this

You are on an estate land now, one owned by Anshe Chung. The main difference between estate land and Mainland land is that on the mainland rules are extremely lax and if someone comes in and buys even a 16 meter piece of property he can then put all his servers on that one spot and lag the entire sim, and there is nothing that can be done about it. On an estate, especially a "Residential" one you have an owner or estate manager than helps to ensure that you and your neighbors have the best possible experience, some of the rules may be more than you like but if you search for a nice estate whose rules make sense to you and what you want to do here in SL then you are in very good shape. I lived in Dreamland because everytime i moved from piece of land to piece of land on the mainland, ad billboards, Bush Signs, clubs, lag, even Hobos ( though they were pretty cool ) showed up next door. I didnt find peace until I moved to Dreamland and it wasnt long before my prim hungry daughter made me buy an island.

If i was you I wouldnt worry so much about owning land if you are happy in Dreamland, your rights as a landowner arent really different from what you have going on now.

A lot of this is confusing to me about land . I still need to learn it and I know they recently changed the rules about how group owned land can be sold so its all confusing to me. But even I can see one thing. Someone needs to start a website where we can go to post feedback to rate those that are selling land and who own land for their trustworthiness and reputation. And a place where disagreements can be negotiation like the BBB. What do you all think?

Elinah

Estate land needs a separate category altogether, not "for sale" but "for lease", in the filter. Not only is this confusing, it is just begging someone to exploit the confusion to make a buck. No one is going to be happy about the current setup except some crooks.

So do you also think that, if a shop doesn't have a security guard, it's ok to steal from it because after all it's not your fault if the shop lets you do things the law says you can't?

I am sorry, but I don't agree.

The situation is not that that simple. All land on SL ist Estate Land. There are just different estates.

We have land that is for sale on the so called "mainland" - estate owner is Governor Linden. We have land for sale on other estates, too. We have First Land on mainland. And some other estate owners are offering First Land, too. Then there is land for rent on the mainland and land for rent on other estates, too.

I still think, it would be best to simple list all land and add a column telling to which estate it belongs. And those residents who only want land that is on Governer Lindens estate can choose to do so. Nothing "confusing" here.

LL are working very hard and fast to blur this distinction both by providing new capabilities to other estate owners and by changing their mainland management scheme to match the methods of private estate companies. I have to agree with Dana as non-Linden estates are already radically outselling Mainland. But LL do seem committed to maintaining the mainland continents as Linden estates for the long haul. They thankfully also seem to recognize that the other private estates' business models are beating them hands down.

I wish you'd told us this before the current tier structure was implemented making it impossible for many people to maintain their mainland holdings. It also would've been nice to know this before +/- 4m terraforming was imposed. I wonder if people with land on the edge of the mainland continents know this before sims are added next door; or do they only know it afterward? I suppose all the people who paid through the nose for inner-coastal land on the moth continent understood that the vast water areas marked "Protected Land" were constant and not going to be auctioned to the extent that there would be no open waters left.

the best option for that I believe is the options currently in place. There are dropdows to select PG/Mature/All, why not Mainland/Estate/All?

vote proposal was put in place, 600+ votes thus far, with Torley noticing the issue and awaiting a LL reply

https://secondlife.com/vote/vote.php?get_id=1852
/139/0b/132721/1.html

Actually, I'd hazard a guess to say that would cause even greater confusion for newbies. If tier payments for both type of land were going to LL, then it would make more sense what your suggesting.

The differences between the two is large enough (and obviously there's interest by the sheer number of votes) to warrant a filterable option.. nobody's saying they can't be listed in the default ALL option (along with all other land available). People are just asking for the option to filter for specific things. For example, if I'm looking for first land, I don't want to see auctions as well. If I want to buy mainland, I don't want to see first land, or auctions, or estates.

As a noob, I don't see it this way. LL (and Governor Linden) is the creator/owner of the game. The estate owners are simply other players. Yes, I know that real money is involved and many people find the game to be more real than RL but in the end it is still just a game. I never thought of Inky, Pinky, Blinky and Clyde as equals to me as a gameplayer nor should the land barons be considered equal to LL.

Love it, hate it, or just play it, SL is still a game owned and operated by LL. When it goes the way of the Dodo, something new will come along. But until it does, you are still just another player in the game.

JD

Hrm.

Estate land should have some 'deposit' aspect to deterr reclaimation abuse.

For example: Joe pays L$1000 for a parcel of estate land.
L$500 goes to the estate, L$500 gets held in reserve.

If Joe releases his land, the estate gets the deposit and the land, but
If the estate manager reclaims Joe's land, the deposit goes back to Joe.

Naturally, make it a value the estate manager can set when listing the parcel, from 0% to 100% of the parcel price.

Why? LL don't do this. If seventeen people own the same parcel over a three day period, they all pay a month's worth of tier for it. Why should we deny other estate owners the ability to bill people on an even field?

Because estate owners can reclaim the land for no reason? Read LL's TOS/convenant. Realistically, estate owners that make a habit of such practice will quickly find themselves known to all as untrustworthy. Serious developers don't arbitrarily kick renters any more readily or often than LL.

Dragon, I have no problem with filters like that. I just think listing the different estate owners will make much more sense in the long run. (If you want, highlight Gov Linden in green, or orange or whatever ...)

Differentiating between Governor Linden and ALL other estate owners in one clump is so 2005. It reflects Second Life's past not the future in which more land is created and sold which is not on Governor Lindens estate. We don't live in 2005 anymore. Like it or not: the Lindens clear intent is it, to delegate much of the responsibilities with land creation, development and management to residents.

I can understand the feeling that - somehow - Governor Lindens land sales are the onle "real" ones. But it's ... just a feeling. The facts are that estate owners and owners of land have more or less the same rights on all estates (including Governor Lindens).

The huge fear that is visible in many threads, that the "ebil land baron will just reclaim my land" is just such a feeling, too. As I have mentioned somewhere else already, I am willing to take a bet, that reclaiming of land (because of missed payments) is hugely more common on Governor Lindens estate than on any other ... What is the source for all the small parcels on the auction block in your opinion?

I only can agree with Khamon:Most other estate owners will go to great lengths to find an agreement with you whenever there are payment problems.

All in all: what would be the sense in Linden Lab finally adding the option to easily sell land on other estates than Governor Lindens and then putting a stigma on such deals?

perhaps... i dont think they actually have the physical room to fit another column in the list, and dont think the option for color would even be able to exist. We're on the same page - some sort of visual seperation.



Very true... in the eyes of the estate owner, they ARE LL, because they have full control over the entire sim, which LL does. A side note is that LL *CAN* take an estate, but its a very rare occasion (ask Anshe )



wouldnt doubt that for a second either. My thoughts on the small parcels is people abandoning land... I've personally watched it happen But ya, some of it may be reclaimed land from old accounts who's bill hasnt been paid.

teh systems not perfect, which is why threads like these need to be seen, feature proposals need made, and Lindens need to be contacted.

Yes, but those 17 land owners chose to pass that parcel on to the next person, presumably in return for some value of L$'s, instead of having the land ripped out from under them without compensation.

I don't think comparing it to tier fees is exactly fair, (unless buying estate land is really signing up for a monthly deduction of L$? I admit I haven't looked at it that closely.)

As far as bad reputation goes, there are far too many 'first time buyers' out there for that to be effective.

Even if someone could set up small claims court with binding arbitration, I think this particular feature is going to result in a fair bit of ill will as the inevitable mis-communications and abuses arise.

With "small parcels" I mean anything below 65k sqm. And I very much doubt that many residents "abandon" parcels of 16K or more which you regularly see at the auctions.

What people seem to overlook all too easily, especially when they are kinda fresh in SL, is that Governor Linden is not some benevolent wise overlord ... He is first and foremost a businessman! A nice guy actually - if you like middle aged, gray haired men in dark suits - but still ... a businessman! Businessmen don't like it when they don't get paid for their wares ...

Just to correct a small misunderstanding in your post:Linden Lab could, in theory, reclaim an estate or sim, but I have never heard of such a case. (There were disputed auction wins but that is a bit different.) Anshe once was banned for some 24 hours with her main account (which just goes to show that Governor Linden can be a tough business guy.) But no sims were reclaimed or lost in that process.

Land deals on estates other than Governor Lindens are common for more than a year now.

All Estate owners always had the power to reclaim the land. In the last months, the amount of land created on estates other than Governor Lindens actually rivalled or surpassed new land created by Governor Linden.

I have heard only of a VERY few cases where there actually was a dispute (and residents are usually quick to go into the forums and cry "foul" whenever they feel mistreated).

So, after it has been tried and tested for more than a year without major problems ... what exactly makes you think that a new wave of "mis-communications and abuses" will "arise" now?

Because many folks won't pay attention or bother to understand what they're doing, and estate land sales appear a lot more like regular land sales now. (or Gov Linden's estate land sales if you prefer that concept)

I, personally, am rather paranoid and won't be buying estate land. The idea that I could pay full price for something and have it stripped away a day later with no refund or recourse seems rather lame.
If Gov Linden pulled a stunt like that I can go to small claims court. If some 'anonymous' resident estate manager gyps me, what do I do... try get a court ordered subpoena to force LL to give me the name of the thief and a record of the transactions? )

To even consider buying estate land as an option there would have to be some sort of guarantee, which is why I tossed out the idea of an optional deposit.

Relatively unknown estate managers could use it to give confidence to their first customers, where as reputable estate managers could just ignore the deposit aspect.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out, and whether LL will put some flag up on the land for sale finder to show whether it's resident estate land or gov linden estate land.