My estate land was stolen!! Yes, STOLEN!

** Before reading this, please note that this isn't a general blanket statement concerning all estate owners. This is a recount of one event, by one estate owner on one private estate **

My greatest fears have been realised, I've had land outright STOLEN from me.. it wasn't by a 'swooper', and it wasn't by a Linden. This was land that was purchased as listed off the land sales tab on a estate.

Yesterday:

My vendors were getting sporadically lagged because the network server is on a sim that gets unsual lag, so I went looking for a new place to put it. It's one prim, and can be buried underground even, so I didn't need a huge lot, but I wanted a fast sim so I hit the land sales listings.. I found an ideal one on the sim Apus.. 64M for 200L. I tp'd there, nice sim, went to buy it, no problem. Because the land was set to sale by the estate owner, and becuase they never changed the default covenant, no checkbox was needed so I didn't even notice it was estate land until I looked at the location on the world map. Being somewhat wary about the concept of buying estate land from someone I didn't know, I made sure to take screenshots of my About Land and the Covenant.

About Land
Covenant
Transaction Records

Today (this morning):

My vendors all stopped working, I checked My Land so I could go reset the server, the land I bought is GONE! No warning was given, no notice of reposession of my land that I paid for, no refund of the price I paid.. nothing. This land was simply STOLEN! I've tried contacting the estate owner, and am not getting a response from them, or any of the other owners of the group who own the land.

I've tried Live Help and two Lindens tried to help out, and was asked to email support and to keep trying the estate owner.

I am furious that this "feature" wasn't thought out completely before allowing allowing those with the equal power over land as a Linden to simply be allowed to remove ownership of a paid parcel of land, without there being consequences. It's only 200L, I'm not p*ssed off over the money, it's the idea that anyone who buys land can be, on a whim, tossed out on their collective butt for no reason given. The power to revert land comes with responsibility, and at a minimum, it should be required a reason be given and logged so both LL and the previous owner can see it.

This is blatent theft of land!

It'll be interesting to see what the Lindens end up doing, and I'm glad it was only over a measily 64M of land. Had it been over something bigger, there could've been some serious money involved. It doesn't take a big stretch of the imagination that if this can happen over a small chunk of land, that someone continues with this theft to keep reselling the same plot over and over again. This needs to be dealt with and addressed by LL before someone else gets stolen from!

was only a matter of time before these stories started.

not only to that effect... as I had a similar occurance today

I purposly bought estate land (L$1 16sqm) because it seemed the estate owner was taunting it to be purchased. Of course being me, I had to buy it to have some fun.

As it turns out, I bought it, and IMd the estate owner with a few funny lines. The estate owner IM'd me back about an hour later laughing. I spoke with her at a little length, as we discussed the estate land and such, and she was a very nice, very well spoken estate holder. She told me the 16sqm she had listed was purcahsed about 6 times before me, then released.

Well I didnt release the land. She DID however revert it, and she did tell me. Thats not a problem, as I expected it... and she did refund me the L$1 I paid.

Now what I (and her) DID notice is that when an estate owner reverts land, no IM is sent. As a matter of fact, NOTHING is sent. Theirs no message of any kind that told me my estate purchased land was taken back -- this is a problem.

I was under the assumtion that the land i bought would revert. I knew this, and I told the estate owner also. Even the estate owner agrees at least SOME SORT of message should be sent telling the person the land was reverted. Something similar to what you get when someone returns your objects, it could very easily say your LAND was returned or something.

Just more of my 2 cents worth as I test out the system a little bit more.

I love the idea and way it allows private estates to get more into the land business in SL. Its an opportunity that should have been available a while back, however now it almost feels like the system was "FORCED" into effect, without realizing some of the small details that should have been in place.

Its sad that during testing of 1.12 no comments from people in the business of land were listened to, as most of these issues were addressed in emails to LL by me and others prior to the release.

Oh well.... i hope it gets corrected so we can enjoy our experience

was only a matter of time before these problems started.

This could very well be a mistake on someones part or even a single rogue estate owner being a crook. I think Mr. Wishbringer's point was he simply wouldn't have bought there if it was CLEAR what he was buying.

..at least thats how it seemed to me. ^^

A.P.

The covenant clearly stated to contact the Estate Owner for sales information.

BUT, I do agree this shouldn't have happened. The Land Search MUST indicate mainland/private sim classification, as well as the buy land screens.

Their was no Covenant if you look at the screenshot provided. The convenant TAB did say contact the owner for details. I don't imagine many customers agreeing to purchase a piece of land without the Linden conceived convenant and unspecified future 'details' that, in this case, seem to include "We will revert your land and not give you a refund"... I guess that part is only explained when the Estate owner answers IMs or a group member is online.

Once again this case only, but I can't imagine anybody posting a negative response to a fellow resident who has been taken advantage of or is having trouble finding a resolution to a problem.

Where is the support and kind words and advice for Mr. Wishbringer.

And I was told the swooper community was bad.... yikes.

A.P.

EDIT: Sorry Aaron. Answered before you added:
BUT, I do agree this shouldn't have happened. The Land Search MUST indicate mainland/private sim classification, as well as the buy land screens.

That part, cheers on you. Proposition 1852. Vote if you believe it should be filtered.

^^^^^

It should also be mentioned that a simple CTRL-M can tell you if its a mainland or private sim, too, until the Lindens work out the kinks. The OP joined SL in Nov. of 2004. With that much experience in SL, they should know where the mainland continents are.

But, I'll repeat myself -- this shouldn't have happened. There needs to be a clear indication of private/mainland sim in Searches, and in the buy land dialogs.

Yes, quite a few land swoopers purchased some estate land off me as well (yes, even though I had a pretty clearly worded Covenant). Not my intention to catch them, I simply wanted to rent out large amounts of land for very little upfront cost.

I refunded all of them of course, but only after I extracted a promise from them never to land swoop again.

I'm not sure this is a good idea to have the land sales intermixed like this, however, I think the SL karma gods are smiling a little more today.

True enuff, but if they can fool a 'old hand', imagine how easy newbies are going to be preyed on.

Still no word from either the estate owner or LL on the matter.

sounds like you sold land to an idiot No offense to you, but a "land swooper" woulda known the difference between mainland and estate unless you think you caught a land swooper, but in reality it was a n00b thinking he was getting a good deal - which was more likely the case

a control-M just shows the map

you cant tell mainland/island unless you know what your looking at. My home sim is Nimrod Yaffle.... go TP to it and look at the map.... its looks very well like it could be a private estate

Oh man, I skimmed over this and saw my name. I thought I was going to get blamed for something again.

The sims you are talking about was when LL did a block of 40 sim auction, Anshe won that and named/textured then. It's safe to buy from.

Hi Teddy, it is sad but true: this was bound to happen. If anything fishy has happened in this case is yet open, IMHO. There might be a good reason why the owner has not answered your IM so far. He might still do so and it might all be discovered to be some human error or missunderstanding.

Still, fraud will eventually happen! Buyers of land will suffer as will sellers. This is the nature of our society (in SL and RL): there are many shady characters around that will use any chance to make money and will consider themselves cool and clever if they make money exploiting those of us, which they call "suckers".

Like with many kind of deals "Buyer beware" is an important principle. It might be somewhat tedious but I guess it is a good idea to check the reputation of the estate owner before any deal on a private estate; at least when we are talking about substantial areas of land.

The current system for selling land on private estates is not perfect yet. Thats why we, at The OTHERLAND Group, have decided not sell without human interaction yet. We have listed all of our land "for sale" (so that it is easily found on the map), but at very high prices. If a customer is interested in the land, he can call us, we dicuss all important issues, the Covenant included, and close the deal then, selling the land at the symbolic price of 1 L$ to the new owner.

We might change this procedure in the future. But for now we will be very carefull and work on a few additional scripts to watch for land deals on our estate, before we will fully utilize the new sales functionality of 1.12 including the right to resell.

I aggree completely that a few additional functionalities would make the system at least a little but more secure and useable. What I would like to see, for example is

1. a more eyecatching presentation about the estate, a parcel belongs to in the About Land dialog and in the Land Listings
   
2. a more eyecatching presentation of the fact, if the land is resellable or not
   
3. an automated system message to the buyer, seller and estate owner, whenever land changes ownership
   
4. the need to file a "reason" whenever land is reclaimed by the estate owner
   

In the long run, we might end up with a Second Life, where more land is sold on private estates than on the mainland. That's why I consider it very important, that all the functions surrounding this topic are as clear and user friendly as possible.

I am the esate owner that Dragon is referring to here. I cut a little 16m2 plot of land out of my sim (which was a complete pain in the ass since it was group land so I had to reclain the whole plot, subdivide, and then redeed, but there are enough threads about that already) and set for sale for L$1, really just out of curiosity to see who would buy it. Before doing this I actually added a few lines in the covenant to say that if you buy land from me for L$1 I'm just toying with you and that I will take it back. As Dragon mentioned, this happened 5 times before he bought the land. Dragon obviously read the covenant beforehand and we got a few laughs out of it, and a nice discussion.

As Dragon mentions it was a total surprise when he told me I can take it back whenever I wanted, but I already had, about 5 minutes before that.

In the future I may start renting/selling estate land on another sim (obviously for real, this was just a little experiment) but the state of the tools as they are now seem immature. People need to know if thier land is reclaimed by the estate owner.

Also splitting and rejoining land must become a global function that any esate owner or manager can do without claiming the land back, what a hassle.

Along this line #1 has to be done before #2, can you magine all the IMs generated to people and groups if people were notified of land reclaims, but we had to reclaim it to do simple plot adjusting?

There is a lot of tweaking that has to be done to this feature, hopefully LL will hear us and make the appropriate changes.

P.S. - No land in Urbane is for sale any longer, and everyone got theier L$1 back

I caught half a dozen land swoopers within 60 seconds of listing my land. Of course they are known swoopers so I banned them all from my estate. I have no tolerence for those that scam others.

If there is no clear covenent then a person should never buy estate land since there is no promises one way or the other. There is always a few in the bunch just like the mainland land buyers have their moraly deficient swoopers that will find a way to rip people off and laugh doing it.

Estate land needs a special symbol like first land has and a catagory.

I am not sure, that I would like a special symbol/category for "Estate land". Because "Estate land" can be very different between different estates.

Why not simply add a column "Estate" to the land listings?

One possible estate would be that of Governor Linden (called Mainland), one would be "Dreamland", another "OTHERLAND", "Azure", "Caledon" and so forth.

I don't think a category like "First land" is such a good idea because there might be First land on private estates, too. Why not?

Differnt yes but the basic idea is it's estate not mainland and you can quickly tell from a symbol we are visual creatures after all and yes add colum for estate in the drop down was the other thing I mentioned.

I spose it's true estate land can be first land if the owner decides to do that but it's still not linden first land which has its own symbol and drop down selection. Things need to be as little confusing as possible for people is what I believe.

oh come on

I actually saw this plot on the map listed for sale very soon. It was rather clear that this was a plot of land that was set for sale to TEST the new functionality. (and even if it wasn't mentioned, it's still rather obvious that is the case with a 64 sq.m plot in the MIDDLE of an empty sim)

I'm sure that if you contact the owners of that sim, your money will be refunded. Could we please get a grip of/on the situation before going shouting theft, robbery and general dhrama? Thanks.

P.s. I do acknowledge that this kind of thing will happen, which is why I suggest you only buy estate land from people you either know you can trust due to reputation or you actually talk to them first. However, here there is nothing to be upset about.

These are both great ideas! Would be even neater if the default land for sale tag could be replaced with one's own in the form of a small logo.

The second is also great because personally I do offer first land (although I call them "starter plots) at hugely favourable rates to new residents under 30 days old.

I understand this attitude towards the question of Estate Land vs. Mainland. Most people tend to just differentiate between mainland and the estates. But - as I am a little prejudiced (as an estate owner) - I think this is an unfair distinction and one, that does not reflect the Second Life of the near future in which private continents will soon reach and then surpass the area of the mainland.

For me, mainland is just another (large) estate and Governor Linden just another estate owner. :=) (Hi, Gov!) There are different firms on the market doing the land business on estates, different brands with different strengths, weaknesses and different reputations. Clumping them together in one large group "non Linden Land" would make the good ones suffer from the bad PR from the shady ones.

Governor Linden might be the estate owner with the best reputation right now - and maybe forever. But the competition would be unfairly skewed if Governor Linden got a "stamp of quality" in the listings which no other estate owner would ever be entitled to earn.

Boy...Im only 1 yr old in SL. But the idea of buying ANY land scares the heck outta me!! What is the diff with Estate Land? Is there a link (haha) to explain all this Land stuff?

I wont be buying anytime soon. Very happy to be renting in Dreamland

Thanks!

As I said, my concern isn't over the money.. my concern is that estate land being sold can be so easily stolen back for any reason on a whim, without notification or compensation. Only the Lindens had that power before.. now it's in the hands of the avg joe and quite obviously open to abuse as had happened to me.

I'm sorry, but until you have your land stolen from you, you can't sit back and say there's nothing to be upset about.. that's just plain ignorant.

Ack!

We were testing the new estate functionality coming in -- we setup a plot for sale for L$200 for 64m just as a test in the middle of a new empty sim (labelled 'this is a test' with 'dont buy me' in the description -we also had allow sale turned off in the estate tools) - me & Nexus went out for lunch and when we got back, someone had bought the land out. As far as I know Nexus refunded the initial price and joined it back into the sim again.

Now - I realise not everyone reads the title or description of a plot - so I do humbly apologise for the inconvenience - if you want, I can arrange a plot in the sim now we've got it ready to go with a few weeks free. But that parcel was never intended to be purchased by the general public.

-Adam

I appreciate the optimistic way you, as you mentioned-an estate owner, presented your views in regards to the future of SL Land and how you see it currently.

I disagree though. Govenor Linden is not another estate owner. Their land is owned by, and fees are paid to, the same people that provide us access to the entire SL grid. They have a vested interest and stated policy of not interfering with in world activities and commerce. The land they offer, public sellable land, is inherently different from the land you provide on an estate. With an estate, you are agreeing through a convenant to transfer Linden's right of control/fee collection on this particular server to another individual.

With mainland land you are not consenting to this. Mainland is not a land with a certain set of policies and regulations as estates are. (You had compared the two). You are right, estate land does vary and many policies and sets of rules exist, some even similar to Mainland land. Mainland land however has no configuration. By that I mean that it is not 'private land' CURRENTLY set to emulate properties on the mainland (resellable, terraformable whatever), it is land that has NO CAPACITY to be reconfigured or have its properties changed. ie; Mainland land will ALWAYS BE resellable by nature. Mainland land will ALWAYS be terrained and textured in a manner as to match surrounding sims. Mainland land WILL NEVER be repossesseable in any cases other than Cancellation of your SL account or some infraction or violation. It is a land of constants, not a land of variables.

This is NOT TO SAY one is better or worse. However, it seems pretty clear that they are different enough in nature to at least merit a single lonely search filter.

=)
A.P.

I've talked with Adam (couple posts up). Apparently I had purchased this parcel 3rd hand, and no such description existed at that time. And I have since been indeed refunded the 200L I paid for the land.

There really does need to be some additional safeguards in place against stuff like this, however I applaud the actions of him and Azure Islands for setting this right.

It really does come down to trusting who your buying from. I mean with LL, you pretty much know your not going to get the shaft (unless you don't pay), and certainly there are estate owners that are honerable. There does seem to be more homework that needs to be done on the part of LL implementing features, and the buyer.